CJ "Hating"

[Hoopguru]

How many 2-guards are matching up with Jimmy Butler and Devin Booker, though? Those guys routinely torch defenders regardless of size because they are just great players.

good point, then taller off guards that are 6.5"-6.7". Length does help.

 

[PCmor7]

good point, then taller off guards that are 6.5"-6.7". Length does help.

It CAN help. If you have desire and lateral movement and anticipation.

For instance, look at Melo in his prime, playing the 3. He was taller than most wing forwards, but it didn't translate much on the defensive end. Chandler Parsons and Mike Miller come to mind. Heck, James Harden is a 6-6 guard with close to the quickest feet in the league and he's one of the biggest defensive liabilities out there.

As a coach, the biggest thing for me in finding a good defensive player was 1) willingness to be good at it 2) a knowledge of situations and where the ball and shooters are and 3) loose feet and agility to stay in somebody's stomach or to close out while retaining balance and body control. Only if you have those first three things will length consistently matter.

 

[Natebishop3]

I really never dig that deep anymore so I never realized they started charging?

Neither did I until I was curious about something.

 

[Big Dog]

like I said above, the most used lineup CJ played without dame included three starters and Trent.

You realize Ariza only played 21 games (including 5 playoff games) for Portland and we played 74 games last year plus playoffs. If that was the most used lineup with CJ then who played with CJ when he was playing PG for the other 53 games then?

 

[Big Dog]

Honestly that's why hating is in quotes. Whether a poster refers to criticism as "hate" or "bashing" I wanted people to be able to discuss why most of them had no malice for CJ but just honest critiques for how he plays or fits in on this team... along with the fact that there are some really great things about his game and even better things about the way he conducts himself off the floor. Most of the people in here that get labeled as haters have shown that they are definitely mislabeled, a few have shown that they don't really have anything positive to say about CJ. As for those that label others as hating or bashing... they stayed pretty consistent which I find unfortunate. I also hope that this thread isn't a season long thing but people will and should do with it as they please. I would hope that it would be a place for people to voice their opinions about CJ being on the team, come to accept the fact that he is on the team and then support him as part of the team.

I think it becomes hate when it's repeated well over 10 times in the same season.

 

[Scalma]

You realize Ariza only played 21 games (including 5 playoff games) for Portland and we played 74 games last year plus playoffs. If that was the most used lineup with CJ then who played with CJ when he was playing PG for the other 53 games then?

sorry that I cant change facts to better suit your narrative. That unit played nearly 140 minutes together. The next closest non dame lineup CJ played with had less than 50.

 

[e_blazer]

sorry that I cant change facts to better suit your narrative. That unit played nearly 140 minutes together. The next closest non dame lineup CJ played with had less than 50.

That may be the non-Dame unit that played the most minutes with CJ over the season, but that's just because the second unit was a revolving door. 140 minutes accounts for only probably 10% of the non-Dame minutes CJ played if you figure 20 mpg x 74 regular season games.

 

[Scalma]

That may be the non-Dame unit that played the most minutes with CJ over the season, but that's just because the second unit was a revolving door. 140 minutes accounts for only probably 10% of the non-Dame minutes CJ played if you figure 20 mpg x 74 regular season games.

Ariza played 30+ minutes a night while the guys before he arrived got sporadic minutes. It balances out. Either way, all lineups without dame and with CJ as the lead guard were a net negative on the floor. The only real hope now is Simons. There’s a greater chance he improves as a point guard than CJ imo, but I wouldn’t bet on either happening. And going into another season with the same formula and no backup plan is so arrogant by Olshey. Another year of running CJ and Dame into the ground and praying Ant breaks through. Great.

 

[e_blazer]

Ariza played 30+ minutes a night while the guys before he arrived got sporadic minutes. It balances out. Either way, all lineups without dame and with CJ as the lead guard were a net negative on the floor. The only real hope now is Simons. There’s a greater chance he improves as a point guard than CJ imo, but I wouldn’t bet on either happening. And going into another season with the same formula and no backup plan is so arrogant by Olshey. Another year of running CJ and Dame into the ground and praying Ant breaks through. Great.

Stotts definitely needs to cut their load this season, especially with the compressed schedule. I’d like to see them averaging no more than 34 mpg. With the availability of Trent, Hood and Simons, that really shouldn’t be hard to do. If Simons hasn’t progressed much in his PG skills, CJ may have to get more of his minutes there while Hood and Trent get SG time.

 

[riverman]

The only Blazer player I've truly hated and couldn't stand seeing on the team was Raymond Felton....CJ is an impressive guy..smart guy, and if Dame is unable to give you big minutes he can take a game over and win you a series. Only thing I feel about CJ is that he's a natural 6man like a Mo Williams, Jamal Crawford or a Lou Williams...volume scorer...I like a 3 and D 2 guard like Trent starting....that's not a big deal though. CJ still plays that 6 man role even though he starts

 

[Natebishop3]

The only Blazer player I've truly hated and couldn't stand seeing on the team was Raymond Felton....CJ is an impressive guy..smart guy, and if Dame is unable to give you big minutes he can take a game over and win you a series. Only thing I feel about CJ is that he's a natural 6man like a Mo Williams, Jamal Crawford or a Lou Williams...volume scorer...I like a 3 and D 2 guard like Trent starting....that's not a big deal though. CJ still plays that 6 man role even though he starts

You hit the nail on the head. Nobody hates CJ. That's why it's stupid to call people haters who have issues with his game/contract.

 

[kjironman1]

I don’t really think we need to keep a thread like this going all season. Does anyone really not get it after all of the years that people have been commenting on the Dame/CJ backcourt? It’s either you want him traded for a better fitting star player or you like his offense enough to overlook defensive lapses and ball-stopping tendencies. Since none of us have any input on roster changes, it seems to me to be a pretty futile discussion, but hey, that’s pretty much the overall description of RipCity2.

Well you could merge it with all the other CJ threads but @THE HCP would have a fit if it eclipsed the Melo thread.

 

[TBpup]

You need guys who can make shots or finish to get assists, though. Mario and Wenyen aren't exactly consistent scorers.

No they weren't...but they weren't exactly big time minutes guys off the bench either. Also, people tend to finish more shots when they are wide open....and unfortunately, CJ misses so many wide open teammates game after game.

 

[e_blazer]

Well you could merge it with all the other CJ threads but @THE HCP would have a fit if it eclipsed the Melo thread.

LOL.

 

[PCmor7]

No they weren't...but they weren't exactly big time minutes guys off the bench either. Also, people tend to finish more shots when they are wide open....and unfortunately, CJ misses so many wide open teammates game after game.

We used to sometimes leave guys on the other team open because we knew they couldn't or didn't want to shoot.

I don't know. I don't think this should be that hard. You admitted our bench has been a trouble spot for years. CJ plays point with them maybe 8-10 minutes per game and occasionally gives Dame a rest handling the ball with the first team. If he's the only guy on the floor who can get an open shot and the only one who's probably got a good chance to make it, I think it actually puts his performance in a perspective that transcends advanced metrics: That he's basically got to carry the scoring AND ballhandling load when he's out there with usually at least three non-scorers and a defense loading up especially for him. Show me any PG that's going to shine as a facilitator without guys who make open shots, move well without the ball, or finish at the rim. LeBron averaged 2 fewer assists in 1 more minute of play per game in his first year with the Lakers.

But then, this is why I think people call it "hating on" CJ. When you get to the point that one admits there were other very obvious reasons he didn't excel at point but immediately afterward they go right back to making it a CJ problem, not a "we don't have enough good players" problem. To me, that's hating on the guy.

 

[TBpup]

We used to sometimes leave guys on the other team open because we knew they couldn't or didn't want to shoot.

I don't know. I don't think this should be that hard. You admitted our bench has been a trouble spot for years. CJ plays point with them maybe 8-10 minutes per game and occasionally gives Dame a rest handling the ball with the first team. If he's the only guy on the floor who can get an open shot and the only one who's probably got a good chance to make it, I think it actually puts his performance in a perspective that transcends advanced metrics: That he's basically got to carry the scoring AND ballhandling load when he's out there with usually at least three non-scorers and a defense loading up especially for him. Show me any PG that's going to shine as a facilitator without guys who make open shots, move well without the ball, or finish at the rim. LeBron averaged 2 fewer assists in 1 more minute of play per game in his first year with the Lakers.

But then, this is why I think people call it "hating on" CJ. When you get to the point that one admits there were other very obvious reasons he didn't excel at point but immediately afterward they go right back to making it a CJ problem, not a "we don't have enough good players" problem. To me, that's hating on the guy.

The wide open guys I refer to are not the Aminu types that you would gladly leave wide open from deep. It is teammates on rolls to the hoop who are wide open for a layin or dunk that any G-league refugee would convert at a high percentage. It doesn't make the defense pay for overplaying Dame/CJ and doesn't built confidence in players who admittedly need all the confidence they can get.

 

[HailBlazers]

No they weren't...but they weren't exactly big time minutes guys off the bench either. Also, people tend to finish more shots when they are wide open....and unfortunately, CJ misses so many wide open teammates game after game.

Hater

 

[PCmor7]

The wide open guys I refer to are not the Aminu types that you would gladly leave wide open from deep. It is teammates on rolls to the hoop who are wide open for a layin or dunk that any G-league refugee would convert at a high percentage. It doesn't make the defense pay for overplaying Dame/CJ and doesn't built confidence in players who admittedly need all the confidence they can get.

Who are these players, and what is this imaginary offensive system we are using that has guys cutting or rolling to the basket and finishing at the rim?

I'll say this one more time ... we went from admitting our second unit is let's say offensively challenged to now saying it's CJ's fault that a Keljin Blevins level player doesn't look capable with our second unit.

I watched Hezonja and Bazemore play with Dame. They didn't look like offensive threats playing with an all-NBA player. How the heck am I supposed to think Moses Brown is going be dunking on proven NBA players when he's playing with CJ and three non-shooters?

To me, that seems unreasonable, and that is why it seems like CJ hate. We keep moving goalposts to make CJ a scapegoat in some way, shape, or form. His contract's too much. He's not a good enough defender. He's not a facilitator and the basic isolation offense we run somehow grinds to a halt with the ball in his hands but we never see Dame or Melo or even Trent or Ant dribble the shot clock down and take a tough, contested shot. We're at a point where we're so critical of the guy that it doesn't seems like you are giving him credit for what he is. Most of the praise for him in this thread has been ghostly faint. It's like this was a thread made not for the constant CJ critics to explain their feelings about his play and place on this team fully as much as a way to bare their souls and rationalize why they don't like the guy but qualifying it by saying "he's not all bad, I just think everything he does is bad."

 

[PCmor7]

You hit the nail on the head. Nobody hates CJ. That's why it's stupid to call people haters who have issues with his game/contract.

You really don't think some posters are unreasonably critical of him? I've seen posters throw out trades over the last 3 years that would get little more than a grilled cheese sandwich in return.

You can have issues, but you can't say you have issues and go to unreasonable and borderline bizarre lengths and tangents to defend them and get to say it's fair criticism. Taking shots at everything he doesn't do as well as one wants while not holding others to similar standards, wanting to trade him for clearly inferior returns, bringing him up in almost every game thread, trade thread or free agent thread when he misses a shot goes beyond fair criticism.

 

[tester551]

We used to sometimes leave guys on the other team open because we knew they couldn't or didn't want to shoot.

I don't know. I don't think this should be that hard. You admitted our bench has been a trouble spot for years. CJ plays point with them maybe 8-10 minutes per game and occasionally gives Dame a rest handling the ball with the first team. If he's the only guy on the floor who can get an open shot and the only one who's probably got a good chance to make it, I think it actually puts his performance in a perspective that transcends advanced metrics: That he's basically got to carry the scoring AND ballhandling load when he's out there with usually at least three non-scorers and a defense loading up especially for him. Show me any PG that's going to shine as a facilitator without guys who make open shots, move well without the ball, or finish at the rim. LeBron averaged 2 fewer assists in 1 more minute of play per game in his first year with the Lakers.

But then, this is why I think people call it "hating on" CJ. When you get to the point that one admits there were other very obvious reasons he didn't excel at point but immediately afterward they go right back to making it a CJ problem, not a "we don't have enough good players" problem. To me, that's hating on the guy.

Here is the issue that I have with this justification....

Typically, the team is playing an 8-9 man rotation. That means when Dame sits - CJ is playing with 2-3 bench players. Likewise, when CJ sits - Dame has to play with those same 2-3 bench players. So wouldn't you expect to see Dame's statistics suffer just as much due to those periods?

I haven't researched the numbers, but antodoctialy from watching the games - it felt like there was minimal disruption (loosing a lead) when CJ sits. Conversely, if felt like every time Dame sat down, we'd immediately start digging a huge hole. I would guess that the On/Off numbers would show a huge discrepancy there.

 

[PCmor7]

Here is the issue that I have with this justification....

Typically, the team is playing an 8-9 man rotation. That means when Dame sits - CJ is playing with 2-3 bench players. Likewise, when CJ sits - Dame has to play with those same 2-3 bench players. So wouldn't you expect to see Dame's statistics suffer just as much due to those periods?

I haven't researched the numbers, but antodoctialy from watching the games - it felt like there was minimal disruption (loosing a lead) when CJ sits. Conversely, if felt like every time Dame sat down, we'd immediately start digging a huge hole. I would guess that the On/Off numbers would show a huge discrepancy there.

I don't expect CJ to be Dame. There are about 10 players in the entire NBA as good as Lillard. If that's the standard we make CJ live up to now, then neither he nor whoever we want to replace him is likely to meet our expectations.

 

[PCmor7]

This has been an enlightening thread. So far I've seen posters defend being critical of CJ by saying ...

-- He can't defend guys who score on everyone.

-- He doesn't make guys who have one foot out of the league capable offensive players.

-- He's not as good as a Hall of Famer.

But nah, no one "hates" on CJ. No one has unreasonable standards.

Maybe we need a thread about CJ hater hating.

 

[wizenheimer]

This has been an enlightening thread. So far I've seen posters defend being critical of CJ by saying ...

-- He can't defend guys who score on everyone.

-- He doesn't make guys who have one foot out of the league capable offensive players.

-- He's not as good as a Hall of Famer.

But nah, no one "hates" on CJ. No one has unreasonable standards.

Maybe we need a thread about CJ hater hating.

lol...who said any of those things?

 

[tester551]

I don't expect CJ to be Dame. There are about 10 players in the entire NBA as good as Lillard. If that's the standard we make CJ live up to now, then neither he nor whoever we want to replace him is likely to meet our expectations.

I don't expect him to be as good as Dame.

However you'd think that he'd be able to be a reasonable faximally and replicate 85%-90% of what he does given his pay grade and his cache' within the organization (ie - Olshey holding him out of any trade negotiations). Honestly, I think that is what irritates me most.... CJ is a good/productive player who has some obvious warts in his game (maybe top 50-75 type player in the league). Olshey has CJ as 'off-limits' when his play doesn't warrant that level of respect. Dame needs some significant upgrade in supporting cast to truly contend.

 

[kjironman1]

Here is the issue that I have with this justification....

Typically, the team is playing an 8-9 man rotation. That means when Dame sits - CJ is playing with 2-3 bench players. Likewise, when CJ sits - Dame has to play with those same 2-3 bench players. So wouldn't you expect to see Dame's statistics suffer just as much due to those periods?

I haven't researched the numbers, but antodoctialy from watching the games - it felt like there was minimal disruption (loosing a lead) when CJ sits. Conversely, if felt like every time Dame sat down, we'd immediately start digging a huge hole. I would guess that the On/Off numbers would show a huge discrepancy there.

So you are say Damian Lillard is a better all around player than CJ McCollum.

 

[Big Dog]

I don't expect him to be as good as Dame.

However you'd think that he'd be able to be a reasonable faximally and replicate 85%-90% of what he does given his pay grade and his cache' within the organization (ie - Olshey holding him out of any trade negotiations). Honestly, I think that is what irritates me most.... CJ is a good/productive player who has some obvious warts in his game (maybe top 50-75 type player in the league). Olshey has CJ as 'off-limits' when his play doesn't warrant that level of respect. Dame needs some significant upgrade in supporting cast to truly contend.

and yet:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mccollums-stats-when-lillard-does-not-play

It appears we already have what you want.

 

[PCmor7]

I don't expect him to be as good as Dame.

However you'd think that he'd be able to be a reasonable faximally and replicate 85%-90% of what he does given his pay grade and his cache' within the organization (ie - Olshey holding him out of any trade negotiations). Honestly, I think that is what irritates me most.... CJ is a good/productive player who has some obvious warts in his game (maybe top 50-75 type player in the league). Olshey has CJ as 'off-limits' when his play doesn't warrant that level of respect. Dame needs some significant upgrade in supporting cast to truly contend.

First, I don't know about this off-limits thing. Who do you think is available that could be had to replace CJ that's not a big downgrade? I don't have a problem with not trading a player when we can't get back equal value, especially when we also aren't going to attract free agents of replacement value. Again, to me, this is hating ... when essentially you ignore what the guy adds to the team and you want to give him away for some hypothetical player who isn't out there.

Second, you said you don't expect him to be Dame but you used Dame as the benchmark for what you expect him to be.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

This has been an enlightening thread. So far I've seen posters defend being critical of CJ by saying ...

-- He can't defend guys who score on everyone.

-- He doesn't make guys who have one foot out of the league capable offensive players.

-- He's not as good as a Hall of Famer.

But nah, no one "hates" on CJ. No one has unreasonable standards.

Maybe we need a thread about CJ hater hating.

I take it you weren't around for the so-called "jailblazer" era? Sheed and Randolph were routinely condemned for not being as good as Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. I remember fans saying that they actually were as good as those guys, but that they were lazy underachievers, blah, blah, blah. NO player on the current team is subjected to the level of vitriol we have seen in the past.

The threshold for calling fans "haters" has gotten absurdly low.

 

[PCmor7]

I take it you weren't around for the so-called "jailblazer" era? Sheed and Randolph were routinely condemned for not being as good as Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. I remember fans saying that they actually were as good as those guys, but that they were lazy underachievers, blah, blah, blah. NO player on the current team is subjected to the level of vitriol we have seen in the past.

The threshold for calling fans "haters" has gotten absurdly low.

I wasn't around the message boards during that era, but I've been a fan since the Sidney Wicks days.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

and yet:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mccollums-stats-when-lillard-does-not-play

It appears we already have what you want.

CJ McCollum has averaged 28.4 points, 6.2 assists and 5.1 rebounds in 29 games without Damian Lillard in his career.

3P% 38.0