CJ "Hating"

[tester551]

First, I don't know about this off-limits thing. Who do you think is available that could be had to replace CJ that's not a big downgrade? I don't have a problem with not trading a player when we can't get back equal value, especially when we also aren't going to attract free agents of replacement value. Again, to me, this is hating ... when essentially you ignore what the guy adds to the team and you want to give him away for some hypothetical player who isn't out there.

Second, you said you don't expect him to be Dame but you used Dame as the benchmark for what you expect him to be.

In the last few years, there has been PG13 and Buttler. Either one is a significant upgrade from CJ. In both situations, we heard from media reports that CJ was not offered in the negotiations.

Secondly - Dame makes $31.6M and CJ makes $29.3M. The next highest paid Blazer is RoCo at $12M. So if we're going to compare players, production, and winning impact - Dame seems like the logical comparison choice.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

This has been an enlightening thread. So far I've seen posters defend being critical of CJ by saying ...

-- He can't defend guys who score on everyone.

-- He doesn't make guys who have one foot out of the league capable offensive players.

-- He's not as good as a Hall of Famer.

But nah, no one "hates" on CJ. No one has unreasonable standards.

Maybe we need a thread about CJ hater hating.

Oooops, missed CONTRACT. Many don't hate the player, they hate the contract - me included.

 

[tester551]

and yet:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mccollums-stats-when-lillard-does-not-play

It appears we already have what you want.

Yes, CJ generates great numbers when Dame is out of the game completely.

Yet, it does not seem like we get to see that same CJ very frequently when Dame is playing...

So the questions becomes:
1) why?
2) would everyone (Dame, CJ, and the Team) ultimately be better off if the pairing is separated? Many of us have been contending that would be the case for years.

 

[Big Dog]

Oooops, missed CONTRACT. Many don't hate the player, they hate the contract - me included.

I pretty much hate all large contracts and CJ is only the 28th highest paid player in the league and will drop as a few more top signings are put in their respective slot. I tend not to worry too much about contracts though. I care about production on the floor.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I pretty much hate all large contracts and CJ is only the 28th highest paid player in the league and will drop as a few more top signings are put in their respective slot. I tend not to worry too much about contracts though. I care about production on the floor.

Percentage of salary cap is a much more important stat.

 

[RR7]

Can anyone point me to where to find stats for when players play with or without a different teammate? Not for games missed, but like for example, cj when Trent is in the game versus not, etc.? I know I have seen them and used them before, and for the life of me can't remember where from

 

[Big Dog]

Yes, CJ generates great numbers when Dame is out of the game completely.

Yet, it does not seem like we get to see that same CJ very frequently when Dame is playing...

So the questions becomes:
1) why?
2) would everyone (Dame, CJ, and the Team) ultimately be better off if the pairing is separated? Many of us have been contending that would be the case for years.

1) Why? Because Dame is the alpha dog of this team and all things run through Lillard. Lillard is number 1 option and McCollum is number 2 option. What we see is a tandem of guards that are one of the best scoring tandems in the league and a nightmare for teams to defend.


2) Yes they could and no they may not. Nobody can say either way and nobody knows what the market could bring back. As for Paul George, it appears he likely would have bolted to LA (his home town) and we would be without McCollum and George. Would you have been okay with that?

The reason I posted that stat is because I believe you and some others have been dogging on CJ's numbers when he plays PG. Stats suggest otherwise.

 

[Big Dog]

Percentage of salary cap is a much more important stat.

Well the salary cap is the same for all teams so anyone making around the same as CJ will be of the same percentage for his team. This year we have the 18th and 28th highest paid player tandem. Compared to some other teams:

Portland: 18th and 28th highest
Houston: 2nd and 4th
Phoenix: 2nd and 27th
Washington: 4th and 29th
LA Clippers: 9th and 12th

Two of those teams didn't even make the playoffs. McCollum has made the playoffs every year of his career.

these are just a few

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Does anyone have Dame stats for minutes played without CJ? That would be interesting. I suspect they both benefit greatly from playing with each other.

The team has been so terrible with both of them sitting the same minutes that they should have their rest nearly 100% staggered.

 

[wizenheimer]

Can anyone point me to where to find stats for when players play with or without a different teammate? Not for games missed, but like for example, cj when Trent is in the game versus not, etc.? I know I have seen them and used them before, and for the life of me can't remember where from

depending on what you're looking for there is the lineup page at bbref. You can get to it by hovering over the 'more pages' selection on team home:



https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2020/lineups/

it will give you 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, & 2-man lineups. Unfortunately it only lists the 20 most used combos in each category, and it's mainly just raw 100-possessions stats. No advanced metrics except for eFG% which is a pretty flawed stat

 

[RR7]

depending on what you're looking for there is the lineup page at bbref. You can get to it by hovering over the 'more pages' selection on team home:

View attachment 35310

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2020/lineups/

it will give you 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, & 2-man lineups. Unfortunately it only lists the 20 most used combos in each category, and it's mainly just raw 100-possessions stats. No advanced metrics except for eFG% which is a pretty flawed stat

Thank you. I've used that one but its not quite what I want. I've seen it used often when discussing ben Simmons and Joel embiid, so maybe I'll hunt down one of those elsewhere to see if I can figure it out.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

depending on what you're looking for there is the lineup page at bbref. You can get to it by hovering over the 'more pages' selection on team home:

View attachment 35310

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2020/lineups/

it will give you 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, & 2-man lineups. Unfortunately it only lists the 20 most used combos in each category, and it's mainly just raw 100-possessions stats. No advanced metrics except for eFG% which is a pretty flawed stat

Looking at some of these makes Dame seem even more impressive... he seems good in lineups without CJ and has so many shitty teammates the last few years. Makes me excited to see what can happen this year if the additions contribute.

 

[Blazers Roy]

C.J. is the most constantly underrated player on this team. The nitpicking of everything he does wrong gets tiresome... A lot of criticism he gets is legitimate but it's usually overexaggerated and people use it to ignore the good things he does for the team. The fact that some people only want to play him 25-27 minutes per game is mind-boggling to me. Some people in here would cut CJ's minutes by 10 and give them to Anfernee... That doesn't make us a better team.

He provides on outlet to relieve pressure off Dame. His playmaking improved last season. He bails out our stagnant ass offense consistently. When Dame is struggling, C.J. often times picks up the slack and gets going himself. When Dame has it going, C.J. happily defers and spaces the court. I feel like if we had Bradley Beal all these years, people would be saying the same thing about him. He's an overrated defender and very similar to C.J. Put C.J. in a similar situation as Beal and he's getting you 28-29ppg with 5-6apg. We have a guy that'd be a legitimate all-star if he had his own team, but he's willing to defer to our superstar and happily plays a great 2nd fiddle to him. And people want to bench him and cut his minutes or trade him for a big that struggles to shoot 40% from the field and 30% from 3... It's ridiculous to me.


4.4 assists per game in a slow-it-down offense with mediocre talent around him, but he doesn't pass?

This is a perfect example of the drastic overexaggerations I'm talking about.

Just a few reminders:
1. 30 Teams in this league, 25 actual all stars, 4 of them play in L.A.
2. This past season Whiteside made as much money as CJ and in previous years Meyers and Turner combined have made MORE money than CJ.
Maybe our actual financial problem was paying scrubs all-stars money? Because paying boarderline all-stars - actual all-stars money seems pretty common.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The reason I posted that stat is because I believe you and some others have been dogging on CJ's numbers when he plays PG. Stats suggest otherwise.

What people "dog on" is CJ's effectiveness when he plays backup PG, not his stats when he starts there. These are two very, very different things.

 

[Blazers Roy]

We actually need another CJ.

-Everytime Dame and CJ are tired\resting, we're having a scoring drought which makes us lose our lead or fall into a hole early on to play catch-up the entire evening and it's been this way for years.

-We had Curry that one year and we had a perfect record every-time he scored more than 10 (?) points or something.

-Dame playing the entire 1st quarter every night is a stupid strategy as well.

-Our coach needs natural scorers to save his ass.

Lou Williams might be available, even though i'm not a huge fan of his.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

We actually need another CJ.

-Everytime Dame and CJ are tired\resting, we're having a scoring drought which makes us lose our lead or fall into a hole early on to play catch-up the entire evening and it's been this way for years.

-We had Curry that one year and we had a perfect record every-time he scored more than 10 (?) points or something.

-Dame playing the entire 1st quarter every night is a stupid strategy as well.

-Our coach needs natural scorers to save his ass.

Lou Williams might be available, even though i'm not a huge fan of his.

If Melo, Kanter, or Ant can fulfil that role it could be a huge improvement as you said with Seth Curry in 2019.

An offensive player like Lou would be very helpful if none of the above three can fill the role... I wouldn't actually get Lou because his defense is unplayable in the playoffs, he makes CJ and Dame look like DPOY. But a Lou type of 6th man such as Jordan Clarkson, Eric Bledsoe, etc would be great.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Assuming the Blazers can get comfortably into a top6 spot the last 10 games of the season need to focus on getting Dame and CJ rested. The last two playoffs Dame has been exhausted when the playoffs started. The goal of the season isn't to have Dame put up video game stats to close the year, its to position the team to contend deep into the postseason.

We saw a fully rested Dame with his back to the wall at the start of the bubble, it was insane. We need to get the team in a position to have that guy available near 100% at the start of the playoffs.

Plently of CJ and offensive creation from other Blazers in the regular season is key to that, even if it costs the team a few wins or few offensive efficiency stats.

 

[Big Dog]

What people "dog on" is CJ's effectiveness when he plays backup PG, not his stats when he starts there. These are two very, very different things.

Why are they different other than amount of minutes played at the pg position in a game. When Lillard is playing CJ is limited to about 10-15 minutes per game at pg where as without Dame he is getting 35 minutes at that position in a game. Comparing apples to oranges as it's near impossible to break down CJ's efficiency when they are both available as there are times where CJ will run the point with Dame on the floor as well.

Many posters have said CJ can't play the point and definitely can't play if very well. I posted the link to show that he does have the capability and actually does it pretty well and it would be hard to find another point guard to play the pg as a back up as well as CJ does.

 

[PCmor7]

In the last few years, there has been PG13 and Buttler. Either one is a significant upgrade from CJ. In both situations, we heard from media reports that CJ was not offered in the negotiations.

Secondly - Dame makes $31.6M and CJ makes $29.3M. The next highest paid Blazer is RoCo at $12M. So if we're going to compare players, production, and winning impact - Dame seems like the logical comparison choice.

Well, since we heard from media reports, it must be true. And let's not forget that at the time of both of those proposed trades Paul George and Jimmy Butler had pretty concerning character baggage hanging around them, too. I will grant you that either would be a player I'd consider an upgrade over CJ, though, but I don't think Butler was as clear cut at the time ... his star has risen with the Heat's run.

The second point is more moving of goalposts, though. It's ridiculous to think anyone on this team is going to be as good as Dame, so like I said earlier, if that's your standard, no one's going to reach it. Paul George and Jimmy Butler wouldn't reach it, either. Only now you are bringing the salary into it as a qualifier, which isn't really CJ's problem.

On top of that, it's been established that when Dame doesn't play CJ puts up nearly identical numbers to Dame.

 

[PCmor7]

Yes, CJ generates great numbers when Dame is out of the game completely.

Yet, it does not seem like we get to see that same CJ very frequently when Dame is playing...

So the questions becomes:
1) why?
2) would everyone (Dame, CJ, and the Team) ultimately be better off if the pairing is separated? Many of us have been contending that would be the case for years.

1) First, it's a subjective observation on your part, but, if we were to cede the point, the fact that he's not the primary ballhandler or scorer and doesn't have the ball in his hands as much covers it.
2) I don't believe so. A lot of people have been contending it, but a lot of people also have been saying Gary Trent would be an upgrade at shooting guard because of 5 games in the bubble after spending most of the previous offseason and pre-bubble season saying Trent was a disappointing player we should trade for a bag of chips.

 

[e_blazer]

[RANT]So, Olshey has built the best Blazers roster since at least the Aldridge era. We have good defenders available to help cover for the defensive liabilities of our starting backcourt. We have tremendous depth in terms of veterans available to provide additional scoring punch on both the starting and backup positions. And despite all of that, before training camp even gets underway let alone any games to provide any measuring stick of what this team can achieve, we're endlessly debating about CJ McCollum's role on the team? He's not going anywhere, people. Olshey has made that abundantly clear. At the end of the season, if the team crashes and burns despite the improved roster, then it will make sense to discuss CJ's role going forward. Until then, this is STUPID! [/RANT]

 

[RR7]

was able to find, per 36 with Dame off the court, CJ averages 27.8 per game, 4.8 rebounds, 6.1 assists.

 

[Big Dog]

was able to find, per 36 with Dame off the court, CJ averages 27.8 per game, 4.8 rebounds, 6.1 assists.

In addition, he typically plays around 36 mpg so those stats are pretty accurate per game and not inflated by projecting like some players who may only play about 20=25 mpg.

 

[TBpup]

Who are these players, and what is this imaginary offensive system we are using that has guys cutting or rolling to the basket and finishing at the rim?

I'll say this one more time ... we went from admitting our second unit is let's say offensively challenged to now saying it's CJ's fault that a Keljin Blevins level player doesn't look capable with our second unit.

I watched Hezonja and Bazemore play with Dame. They didn't look like offensive threats playing with an all-NBA player. How the heck am I supposed to think Moses Brown is going be dunking on proven NBA players when he's playing with CJ and three non-shooters?

To me, that seems unreasonable, and that is why it seems like CJ hate. We keep moving goalposts to make CJ a scapegoat in some way, shape, or form. His contract's too much. He's not a good enough defender. He's not a facilitator and the basic isolation offense we run somehow grinds to a halt with the ball in his hands but we never see Dame or Melo or even Trent or Ant dribble the shot clock down and take a tough, contested shot. We're at a point where we're so critical of the guy that it doesn't seems like you are giving him credit for what he is. Most of the praise for him in this thread has been ghostly faint. It's like this was a thread made not for the constant CJ critics to explain their feelings about his play and place on this team fully as much as a way to bare their souls and rationalize why they don't like the guy but qualifying it by saying "he's not all bad, I just think everything he does is bad."

Apparently 'hate' is merely watching Blazers games and noticing the obvious. CJ is a brilliantly talented, offensive scorer. (Hate?) He is a highly efficient spot-up shooter. (More hate?) I think he would be at or near All-Star level if he ran his own team. (Even more hate?)

But to ignore that he is ball dominant to the point of often missing teammates who are wide open at or near the rim, or that he only seems to play at the all-star level when Dame is out, or that defensively, his lack thereof creates issues because Dame is already not a great defensive player (although better) can't exactly be ignored. Add to that his lack of efficiency when playing his seemingly preferred over-dribbling style, and that at least seems cause for question. None of these things (good or not so good) seems out of the realm of simple observation.

For it to continually be lazily called hate seems quite the reach.

Interestingly, just had a good chat this morning with a family member of a significant coaching tree and they raised some of the same pros and cons as well as some fairly simple things they felt Portland could do to address the trap issue that they are surprised Portland hasn't tried over the years. The reality based nature of that chat was.....refreshing.

 

[Big Dog]

Apparently 'hate' is merely watching Blazers games and noticing the obvious. CJ is a brilliantly talented, offensive scorer. (Hate?) He is a highly efficient spot-up shooter. (More hate?) I think he would be at or near All-Star level if he ran his own team. (Even more hate?)

But to ignore that he is ball dominant to the point of often missing teammates who are wide open at or near the rim, or that he only seems to play at the all-star level when Dame is out, or that defensively, his lack thereof creates issues because Dame is already not a great defensive player (although better) can't exactly be ignored. Add to that his lack of efficiency when playing his seemingly preferred over-dribbling style, and that at least seems cause for question. None of these things (good or not so good) seems out of the realm of simple observation.

For it to continually be lazily called hate seems quite the reach.

Interestingly, just had a good chat this morning with a family member of a significant coaching tree and they raised some of the same pros and cons as well as some fairly simple things they felt Portland could do to address the trap issue that they are surprised Portland hasn't tried over the years. The reality based nature of that chat was.....refreshing.

Let's switch roles. Let's say several posters come in this forum and start a thread maybe every few days or so about the Blazers and it turns into a CJ worship thread or that it even starts out as CJ worship thread like we have had at least 6-8 such threads started complaining about him and you have to experience it for months and years. Would you get annoyed by that? Nobody says CJ is perfect. No player is, but he has been one of the main reasons the team has been relatively successful over the past several years. He's a Blazer and I cheer for him to be successful. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[kjironman1]

I wonder how many threads on other teams sites have people posting comments about wanting to trade for CJ McCollum?
Just a thought?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Who's CJ hating on now? Dudes such a hater....