CJ taking it to another level

[blue9]

Yeah. CJ's not Dame. So CJ isn't that good and we need to unload him.

You know. It sometimes takes bad shots. Only good player in the NBA to do that.

To think that some people (not sure if Nate was one of them) thought that we could replace CJ with Seth in the starting line-up. What a bunch of fucking morons those people are!

 

[kjironman1]

Hood was WIDE THE FUCK OPEN. That whole time he was wide open.

Hood was open BECAUSE of CJ attacking and taking that shot.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah. CJ's not Dame. So CJ isn't that good and we need to unload him.

You know. He sometimes takes bad shots. Only good player in the NBA to do that.

Yaaaay hyperbole!

 

[Natebishop3]

Hood was open BECAUSE of CJ attacking and taking that shot.

And that is LITERALLY what I have been trying to fucking say throughout this entire fucking thread. CJ needs to learn to pass the fucking ball when he is hitting shots because the defense adjusts to stop him. But he usually just keeps jacking up badly contested shots. He shot us into and out of the lead multiple times last night. So all I want is for CJ to recognize when the defense has adjusted and pass to the wide open guy.

 

[Natebishop3]

Some people cannot see the forest for all the trees.

So explain it to me sweet pea.

 

[Orion Bailey]

When a player is hot, most defenses will adjust. Forcing much harder, less percentage shots.

Great players recognize this and adjust themselves to find the open, high percentage shot.
Players like westbrick never lift their head up and adjust.

If cj can fix this, he will take his game to another level. All star level.

 

[e_blazer]

I get why people may have the opinion that CJ takes too many tough shots, that he dominates the ball too often, that his defense isn’t great and that he’s shorter than ideal for a SG. There are valid reasons why you may think trading him in the off-season is the best chance to improve the team. What I have no freakin clue about is why you express those ideas now, after he saves the Blazers butt in a major playoff game and while this playoff drive is still in full swing. How about waiting until summer?

 

[kjironman1]

And that is LITERALLY what I have been trying to fucking say throughout this entire fucking thread. CJ needs to learn to pass the fucking ball when he is hitting shots because the defense adjusts to stop him. But he usually just keeps jacking up badly contested shots. He shot us into and out of the lead multiple times last night. So all I want is for CJ to recognize when the defense has adjusted and pass to the wide open guy.

He also made a couple nifty passes to shooters and the shots didn't fall Nate.
I just have a hard time tearing the guy down because he took on the load and put everything out there on the court.
He made a great pass to Aminu at the three point line twice and Aminu missed both. After that i can understand maybe not doing it a third time.
I think i remember a dish to harkless also for a dunk at the end of regulation i think? Blurry on that one.
I was thinking maybe a third shooter would have helped a bit? Dame was blanketed. When Stotts took Harless out and put Hood in it worked out. Happy he found him when he did.

 

[PCmor7]

Yaaaay hyperbole!

Well, you are the one focusing CJ's play being underwhelming last night because he took a 1-on-3 shot and missed a guy who turned out to be hot. The same guy he found for the game-winning 3 at the crucial point. I mean, pot, kettle, ya know?

 

[Natebishop3]

When a player is hot, most defenses will adjust. Forcing much harder, less percentage shots.

Great players recognize this and adjust themselves to find the open, high percentage shot.
Players like westbrick never lift their head up and adjust.

In order for cj to take it to another level he needs to fix this

It's like we're talking to a wall.

Durrrrrr Cj ScOrEd 41 PoInTs AnD We WoN So Cj CaN dO No WrOnG!

 

[Orion Bailey]

I get why people may have the opinion that CJ takes too many tough shots, that he dominates the ball too often, that his defense isn’t great and that he’s shorter than ideal for a SG. There are valid reasons why you may think trading him in the off-season is the best chance to improve the team. What I have no freakin clue about is why you express those ideas now, after he saves the Blazers butt in a major playoff game and while this playoff drive is still in full swing. How about waiting until summer?

Because its the play you mention that makes his value high enough to possibly get better in return star power.
Stock is high you sell.

 

[Natebishop3]

Well, you are the one focusing CJ's play being underwhelming last night because he took a 1-on-3 shot and missed a guy who turned out to be hot. The same guy he found for the game-winning 3 at the crucial point. I mean, pot, kettle, ya know?

Where did I say he was underwhelming?

You have put words in my mouth in almost every single one of your posts.

 

[PCmor7]

And that is LITERALLY what I have been trying to fucking say throughout this entire fucking thread. CJ needs to learn to pass the fucking ball when he is hitting shots because the defense adjusts to stop him. But he usually just keeps jacking up badly contested shots. He shot us into and out of the lead multiple times last night. So all I want is for CJ to recognize when the defense has adjusted and pass to the wide open guy.

I really want a team of perfect players, too. F Olshey for not getting that for us. Stupid Dame for not getting triple-doubles every game and not being 6-foot-6.

Seriously, sometimes you have to realize that you have to accept some bad for a lot of good. You are criticizing a guy for playing well in a manner you don't value.

 

[Natebishop3]

He also made a couple nifty passes to shooters and the shots didn't fall Nate.
I just have a hard time tearing the guy down because he took on the load and put everything out there on the court.
He made a great pass to Aminu at the three point line twice and Aminu missed both. After that i can understand maybe not doing it a third time.
I think i remember a dish to harkless also for a dunk at the end of regulation i think? Blurry on that one.
I was thinking maybe a third shooter would have helped a bit? Dame was blanketed. When Stotts took Harless out and put Hood in it worked out. Happy he found him when he did.

You guys get so geared up to defend CJ that you don't see where we're having this debate.

This thread is literally about CJ taking his game to another level. "A top ten talent right now," the OP said.

You're acting like this is a thread titled, "CJ Sucks Ass! Change my mind." This is a thread about CJ taking his game to another level and some of us are merely pointing out that CJ is still a player with a lot of holes in his game. Or would you rather we just all reply with "Yes! CJ is a top ten talent right now! We won! Yay!"

 

[e_blazer]

Because its the play you mention that makes his value high enough to possibly get better in return star power.
Stock is high you sell.

In the summer maybe when you can actually do something about it. Right now, love him or hate him, he’s busting his butt to try to win this series. I’m going to give him my full support.

 

[kjironman1]

So explain it to me sweet pea.

Well it kind of goes like this.
The trees are big. The tress cut out the light.
The trees don't really allow you to grow sweet peas because it's shady.
Some people want to cut all the trees down because they block all the sun and can't grow sweet peas.
But those who are aware know that you need the trees or you won't be able to breathe.
Eating sweet peas is tough when you are dead.

 

[Natebishop3]

I really want a team of perfect players, too. F Olshey for not getting that for us. Stupid Dame for not getting triple-doubles every game and not being 6-foot-6.

Seriously, sometimes you have to realize that you have to accept some bad for a lot of good. You are criticizing a guy for playing well in a manner you don't value.

I'm done debating with you because you're incapable of taking what I posted and actually discussing it. You'd rather put words in my mouth and change the narrative because you can't argue the actual points of contention.

 

[PCmor7]

Where did I say he was underwhelming?

You have put words in my mouth in almost every single one of your posts.

Because you leave it open to that interpretation. If you don't want your posts to be twisted, don't make them twistable.

You didn't say underwhelming. You criticized him for being inefficient and wrote that he really hasn't played that well this series. I don't know, I think most people would think categorizing your assessment of CJ's play as underwhelming would be giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Natebishop3]

wrote that he really hasn't played that well this series

Again, where did I ever say this?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I really want a team of perfect players, too. F Olshey for not getting that for us. Stupid Dame for not getting triple-doubles every game and not being 6-foot-6.

Seriously, sometimes you have to realize that you have to accept some bad for a lot of good. You are criticizing a guy for playing well in a manner you don't value.

Im all about positivity.
How do you think improvement generally takes place?
By observing, acknowledging, pinpointing and. correctung faults.

Not by dismissing them because there are also strengths in other areas.

As fans, why is it so bad to discuss these things we see and want this to happen??

No where is he saying cj sucks. For this team though, he might not be the optimal value position of star power. And to get a forward of same value may indeed improve the team even mire than the singular value of cj.
I don't know if i agree with that, but i see no issue discussing it in a cj level elevation thread.

 

[PCmor7]

I'm done debating with you because you're incapable of taking what I posted and actually discussing it. You'd rather put words in my mouth and change the narrative because you can't argue the actual points of contention.

Then you didn't bother reading what I actually wrote to start with, that CJ has value in the team dynamic that cannot be measured adequately by metrics, that he has skills that are rare and benefit the team just through their existence, and that his occasionally taking what we would consider "bad shots" as an acceptable trade-off for the great shots he creates and the tough shots he makes. That literally was how I entered this thread. It was when you started to get into CJ didn't really play all that well because he doesn't have the ability to morph from scorer mode to passer mode on a dime that we veered down a parallel course ... that being your perception of what is acceptable to what actually gets the team toward its intended goal.

 

[kjironman1]

You guys get so geared up to defend CJ that you don't see where we're having this debate.

Nah. I just like to give him credit for playing a game the best he can and for the work he has done to get better at all the points you are making.
Bottom line still remains- If CJ was not playing with the confidence and intensity he was playing with last night they lose that game.

However. Your point is very real. CJ does need to continue to try and find shooters when the defense collapses on him. He should always look for hot hands other than his. When his shot is not falling he should probably be more willing to defer to another shooter but that was not that case last night as when he did their shots didn't fall. I am glad he has picked it up on defense also.

 

[tlongII]

CJ does what he’s paid to do. Score. And he does it very well. He’s a terrific player and all the trade ideas regarding him on this site that I’ve seen are stupid.

 

[PCmor7]

Im all about positivity.
How do you think improvement generally takes place?
By observing, acknowledging, pinpointing and. correctung faults.

Not by dismissing them because there are also strengths in other areas.

As fans, why is it so bad to discuss these things we see and want this to happen??

No where is he saying cj sucks. For this team though, he might not be the optimal value position of star power. And to get a forward of same value may indeed improve the team even mire than the singular value of cj.
I don't know if i agree with that, but i see no issue discussing it in a cj level elevation thread.

First, people act like CJ hasn't improved. I would suggest he has improved every year, just as Dame has. But his style also is his style, and what some people perceive as "faults" are the very things that make him a terrific player. Great players sometimes make bad decisions and take ill-advised shots because they are of the mindset to take those opportunities and they more often lead to positive outcomes rather than negative.

CJ takes a 1-on-3 by himself. But it's that confidence and his ability to create a shot there than also made him willing to take difficult shots and to make them at other times.

It's not bad to discuss things we see and want to happen. However, he scored 41 points last night, made a critical defensive play and had a rebound and assist on the winning basket in one of the most-exciting wins in franchise history last night and some fans immediately are downplaying CJ's play and value. And it happens every single good game he plays.

There's hopes and expectations. There's also reality. Improvement happens over time. Not in the vacuum of what we fans want them to happen.

And I'm not sure where we went down the path of trading CJ again. I wasn't even discussing that. I was talking about how a number of our fans undervalue the qualities he brings to the table and every time he plays well they wet-blanket it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

First, people act like CJ hasn't improved. I would suggest he has improved every year, just as Dame has. But his style also is his style, and what some people perceive as "faults" are the very things that make him a terrific player. Great players sometimes make bad decisions and take ill-advised shots because they are of the mindset to take those opportunities and they more often lead to positive outcomes rather than negative.

CJ takes a 1-on-3 by himself. But it's that confidence and his ability to create a shot there than also made him willing to take difficult shots and to make them at other times.

It's not bad to discuss things we see and want to happen. However, he scored 41 points last night, made a critical defensive play and had a rebound and assist on the winning basket in one of the most-exciting wins in franchise history last night and some fans immediately are downplaying CJ's play and value. And it happens every single good game he plays.

There's hopes and expectations. There's also reality. Improvement happens over time. Not in the vacuum of what we fans want them to happen.

And I'm not sure where we went down the path of trading CJ again. I wasn't even discussing that. I was talking about how a number of our fans undervalue the qualities he brings to the table and every time he plays well they wet-blanket it.

Couple of points to note.

He only scored 41 because he played 60 minutes.

Great players work on weaknesses and don't let it affect their strengths.

Dame became a better passer and decision maker this season. Did it affect his scoring?

The trade cj i brought up because thats the end game for those on the furthest edge of cj not being the best fit for this team.

 

[PCmor7]

Where did I say he was underwhelming?

You have put words in my mouth in almost every single one of your posts.

I owe you an apology on that, Nate. I confused you with Bones. Bones made the post that started me off. You replied to my response to him and over the course of the convo I thought it was you who made the original post I was commenting about.

 

[Strenuus]

Mann thank you it shocks me people hate on Cj

And it shocks me people hate on Dame. We can both play that game, can't we?

 

[tester551]

How many shot opportunities did any of the three guys you mentioned create for themselves? And how many of them have been anywhere near consistent as CJ's been over the course of several years?

If you really think we even get the game to overtime last night with Rodney Hood filling the CJ role ... heck, if you think we are even in this position with Rodney Hood filling the CJ role, I'd love to be competing against a team you'd construct.

I mean, I think you actually are going to absurd territory here by saying Rodney Hood is going to replace CJ's production.

That's completely the wrong question. Great basketball teams share the ball with lits of movement - not iso ball.

Having different action is a good thing.

 

[wizenheimer]

CJ hasnt been particularly good this series. Had a couple great stretches, but overall hes taking a lot of shots and making an adequate amount.

I kind of agree but he has hit several crucial shots...of course, he's launching a hell of a lot of shots. He had 3 great games in the OKC series though

in this series, CJ has scored 77 points on 76 shots; 1.01 points/shot. Dame has scored 81 points on 62 shots; 1.31 points/shot. Yet for some reason, plenty of people are saying Dame is playing poorly and CJ is playing great (but then Dame is held to a much higher standard), even though, once again, like always, the defense is geared up to stop Dame with doubles, hedges, and traps; meanwhile, CJ gets single coverage, rarely by the best opposing perimeter defender...that's Dame's burden

 

[PCmor7]

Couple of points to note.

He only scored 41 because he played 60 minutes.

Great players work on weaknesses and don't let it affect their strengths.

Dame became a better passer and decision maker this season. Did it affect his scoring?

The trade cj i brought up because thats the end game for those on the furthest edge of cj not being the best fit for this team.

Kind of picky, don't you think? I mean there were other guys that played close to 60 minutes or more last night. None of them scored 41.

I already mentioned that CJ's improved his game. But sometimes it does affect their strengths. If their strength is as a shot-creator and scorer and you tell them you want them to give the ball up more, it's definitely going to affect their strength. I know, not exactly the point you were getting at ... but the point holds. It's like telling Giannis you want him to work on his perimeter shooting and you think it's not going to have an impact on his rebounding or scoring in the paint. It almost certainly will diminish that to some extent.

You and others create a false equivalency by using Dame. Dame is an extraordinary talent. He's in the most rarified of air in making adjustments and improvement to his game. No one is saying CJ is Dame. But if Dame is your benchmark only a handful of other players are even in the discussion. Someone else in this thread used Durant's absurd playoff stats and Dame's absurd playoff stats to diminish CJ's playoff productivity. If you expect any Blazers' improvement or performance to meet the bar Dame or Durant set, you are never going to be satisfied.

And I've always said if you trade CJ you need to get someone back of greater or at least equal value, and I don't think there are as many players we could get for him that would make the Blazers a better team. Sometimes it's about fit, not efficiency, and I think we have a lot of fans who don't value what CJ is because they are much too busy taking a magnifying glass to what he is not.