OT Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago Cubs series thread..

[Natebishop3]

Because it's a lie. Plus I'd say there are lots of people (conservatives) that actually believe it.

It's an exaggeration. Pretty sure SNL made it into a big thing. It was the same way with Sarah Palin. She never actually said "I can see Russia from my back window," but because they said it on SNL, many people thought that she actually said it.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/russia.asp

 

[Nate]

Because it's a lie. Plus I'd say there are lots of people (conservatives) that actually believe it.

Of course it's a lie. I invented the internet. And Hillary Clinton raped me, about 16 years ago.

 

[Nate]

Today at school I heard two teachers talking, one of them said he was rooting against Cleveland because he "took exception" to their logo, the other responded with "oh yeah, it's totally racist". Does anybody else think so? It's obviously not racist, based on the definition of the word. But racially insensitive maybe? I can see why people dont like the Washington red skins name. No one likes being called a white skin, or a yellow skin, or a black skin, or a brown skin. But I really don't see how the Cleveland Indians is racially insensitive (RI) at all.. are the Minnesota Vikings RI? The New England patriots? The Boston celtics? I could go on and on...

 

[Natebishop3]

Today at school I heard two teachers talking, one of them said he was rooting against Cleveland because he "took exception" to their logo, the other responded with "oh yeah, it's totally racist". Does anybody else think so? It's obviously not racist, based on the definition of the word. But racially insensitive maybe? I can see why people dont like the Washington red skins name. No one likes being called a white skin, or a yellow skin, or a black skin, or a brown skin. But I really don't see how the Cleveland Indians is racially insensitive (RI) at all.. are the Minnesota Vikings RI? The New England patriots? The Boston celtics? I could go on and on...

Plus, these teams took the names Indians, Chiefs, Braves, because they were warriors. It's not meant to be an insult.

 

[Nate]

Plus, these teams took the names Indians, Chiefs, Braves, because they were warriors. It's not meant to be an insult.

Seriously, I remember thinking it was so cool that the Kansas City Chiefs were a team as a little kid.

 

[julius]

Today at school I heard two teachers talking, one of them said he was rooting against Cleveland because he "took exception" to their logo, the other responded with "oh yeah, it's totally racist". Does anybody else think so? It's obviously not racist, based on the definition of the word. But racially insensitive maybe? I can see why people dont like the Washington red skins name. No one likes being called a white skin, or a yellow skin, or a black skin, or a brown skin. But I really don't see how the Cleveland Indians is racially insensitive (RI) at all.. are the Minnesota Vikings RI? The New England patriots? The Boston celtics? I could go on and on...

How is Vikings, Patriots and Celtics logos racially insensitive? Especially Patriots?

The NAME isn't insensitive, it's the LOGO that is. It is a caricature of a Native American.

The Vikings logo, outside of the historically inaccurate horns, is not a caricature of Vikings. Nor is the Patriots logo. And at best, you could make the case for the Celtics being a caricature of whatever the hell their logo is (a leprechaun) but it was done as a homage to the Irish population in the Boston area.

Patriots are obviously because of the birth of the country, and Vikings was because of the strong Scandinavian population in Minnesota/area.

Not sure how their logos are racially insensitive, especially compared to the Indians logo.

 

[Nate]

How is Vikings, Patriots and Celtics beign racially insensitive? Especially Patriots?

The NAME isn't insensitive, it's the LOGO that is. It is a caricature of a Native American.

The Vikings logo, outside of the historically inaccurate horns, is not a caricature of Vikings. Nor is the Patriots logo. And at best, you could make the case for the Celtics being a caricature of whatever the hell their logo is (a leprechaun) but it was done as a homage to the Irish population in the Boston area.

Patriots are obviously because of the birth of the country, and Vikings was because of the strong Scandinavian population in Minnesota/area.

Not sure how their logos are racially insensitive, especially compared to the Indians logo.

They aren't, that was my point...
And how is the Viking logo not a caricature of Vikings? That's exactly what it is.... or it wouldn't be the logo... Vikings were also murdering assholes, I'm part Scandinavian, maybe I don't want to be associated with a bunch of people that travelled around and raped and pillaged and enslaved a bunch of Irish people (which I'm also part Irish).
As for the patriots, not everyone wanted a revolution, there were a lot of loyalists to the crown, and they thought the people fighting in the revolution were crazy extremists. Not all white people from New England were patriots.... the Boston celtics is self explanatory.

The only thing that ties the Cleveland logo to native Americans, is the feather. Which is actually historically accurate.... Should they have whitewashed their logo?

 

[Nate]

What about the Notre Dame fighting Irish? Maybe I don't want to be stereotyped as a violent Irishman?

 

[Nate]

And the logo of the patriots is a white person wearing a hat of that time period. What about all the black people that fought for our independence? Some of them probably didn't even have a hat. What's that team trying to say? Only white people with hats were patriots?

 

[julius]

They aren't, that was my point...
And how is the Viking logo not a caricature of Vikings? That's exactly what it is.... or it wouldn't be the logo... Vikings were also murdering assholes, I'm part Scandinavian, maybe I don't want to be associated with a bunch of people that travelled around and raped and pillaged and enslaved a bunch of Irish people (which I'm also part Irish).
As for the patriots, not everyone wanted a revolution, there were a lot of loyalists to the crown, and they thought the people fighting in the revolution were crazy extremists. Not all white people from New England were patriots.... the Boston celtics is self explanatory.

You really are giving the impression you don't know what the word caricature means.

The only thing that ties the Cleveland logo to native Americans, is the feather. Which is actually historically accurate.... Should they have whitewashed their logo?

The only thing? Do you not know the history of Chief Wahoo, or how Native Americans were presented in pictures/media in the 50's (and before)?

 

[julius]

And the logo of the patriots is a white person wearing a hat of that time period. What about all the black people that fought for our independence? Some of them probably didn't even have a hat. What's that team trying to say? Only white people with hats were patriots?

again, you're just showing you don't know what caricature means.

 

[Chris Craig]

Today at school I heard two teachers talking, one of them said he was rooting against Cleveland because he "took exception" to their logo, the other responded with "oh yeah, it's totally racist". Does anybody else think so? It's obviously not racist, based on the definition of the word. But racially insensitive maybe? I can see why people dont like the Washington red skins name. No one likes being called a white skin, or a yellow skin, or a black skin, or a brown skin. But I really don't see how the Cleveland Indians is racially insensitive (RI) at all.. are the Minnesota Vikings RI? The New England patriots? The Boston celtics? I could go on and on...

When Columbus got here, he thought he was in India, and therefore he called the natives Indians. He wasn't in india, they arent therefore Indians. Though, technically Indian means native, so it's not totally off base. However, Native Americans ( as is the politically correct term) feel the word Indian is derogratory, and too their credit it was used that way back in the day a lot. Therefore yes, it is racist.
What Native Americans find more offensive is the logo, Chief Wahoo, a cartoon caricature that is stereotypical and demeaning. It's big toothy grin and long pointy nose, spits at the Native American people, casting them as lowely and unintelligent.

Washington's team name is a racial slur, but at least their logo presents the Native American people as proud warriors.

 

[Nate]

again, you're just showing you don't know what caricature means.

"a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect."

I think you don't know what caricature means. Explain to me how the Vikings logo isn't a caricature of a Viking.

 

[Natebishop3]

How is Vikings, Patriots and Celtics logos racially insensitive? Especially Patriots?

The NAME isn't insensitive, it's the LOGO that is. It is a caricature of a Native American.

The Vikings logo, outside of the historically inaccurate horns, is not a caricature of Vikings. Nor is the Patriots logo. And at best, you could make the case for the Celtics being a caricature of whatever the hell their logo is (a leprechaun) but it was done as a homage to the Irish population in the Boston area.

Patriots are obviously because of the birth of the country, and Vikings was because of the strong Scandinavian population in Minnesota/area.

Not sure how their logos are racially insensitive, especially compared to the Indians logo.

How exactly is this not a caricature?

Were all vikings a bunch of blonde white guys with huge horns on their helmets? It's a stereotype of a historically significant culture that has relevance to that area.

 

[Natebishop3]

When Columbus got here, he thought he was in India, and therefore he called the natives Indians. He wasn't in india, they arent therefore Indians. Though, technically Indian means native, so it's not totally off base. However, Native Americans ( as is the politically correct term) feel the word Indian is derogratory, and too their credit it was used that way back in the day a lot. Therefore yes, it is racist.
What the Native Americans find more offensive is the logo, Chief Wahoo, a cartoon caricature that is stereotypical and demeaning. It's big toothy grin and long pointy nose, spits at the Native American people, casting them as lowely and unintelligent.

Washington's team name is a racial slur, but at least their logo presents the Native American people as proud warriors.

So out of curiosity, how many generations of my family need to live in America before we're officially considered "Native Americans?"

Because historically even the "native" peoples of North America are thought to have migrated here, and since "native" means "a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth" and indigenous means "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native." I'm having a hard time seeing how "Native Americans" can realistically be used to describe the descendants of many nations of peoples who lived here when the colonists came over.

 

[julius]

How exactly is this not a caricature?

Were all vikings a bunch of blonde white guys with huge horns on their helmets? It's a stereotype of a historically significant culture that has relevance to that area.

Caricature:

a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

What part of the Vikings logo is done for comic or grotesque effect?

You're honestly telling me that you think the picture of a viking is the same as Chief Wahoo?

If the only thing you have fault with the Vikings logo is the horns...and yes, most if not all vikings were white, and the vast majority of them had blond (or in this case, yellow) hair.

Most, if not Indians do not and never did, look like Chief Wahoo. It's no different then the propaganda posters of WW2

 

[julius]

So out of curiosity, how many generations of my family need to live in America before we're officially considered "Native Americans?"

Because historically even the "native" peoples of North America are thought to have migrated here, and since "native" means "a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth" and indigenous means "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native." I'm having a hard time seeing how "Native Americans" can realistically be used to describe the descendants of many nations of peoples who lived here when the colonists came over.

Just stop.

 

[julius]

"a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect."

I think you don't know what caricature means. Explain to me how the Vikings logo isn't a caricature of a Viking.

You seem to forget, or block out, the words "IN ORDER TO CREATE A" right before "Comic or grotesque effect".

 

[Nate]

Caricature:

a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

What part of the Vikings logo is done for comic or grotesque effect?

You're honestly telling me that you think the picture of a viking is the same as Chief Wahoo?

If the only thing you have fault with the Vikings logo is the horns...and yes, most if not all vikings were white, and the vast majority of them had blond (or in this case, yellow) hair.

Most, if not Indians do not and never did, look like Chief Wahoo. It's no different then the propaganda posters of WW2

So you're telling me, that you don't think native Americans ever had big noses, or smile, or ever put feathers in their hair? The hypocrisy is unreal here.

But you think the Vikings logo is just spot on?

 

[Natebishop3]

Just stop.

So you seriously don't find any problem with some of the ridiculous PC terms that have been used in the last few decades?

African American
Native American

They're stupid. I totally understand why we shouldn't use "Indian" or even "American Indian" but "Native American" is an inaccurate term for the current living ancestors of the natives that lived here hundreds of years ago. You were born in the United States, yes? You are native to North America. You are a native American. Similarly, there are white people who have relatives in Africa, which makes them... you guessed it.... African American.

 

[julius]

So you're telling me, that you don't think native Americans have big noses, or smile, or ever put feathers in their hair? The hypocrisy is unreal here.

But you think the Vikings logo is just spot on?

and you're telling me that Japanese people didn't wear glasses and Jews don't handle money at one time!?


THE INJUSTICE!

 

[julius]

So you seriously don't find any problem with some of the ridiculous PC terms that have been used in the last few decades?

African American
Native American

They're stupid. I totally understand why we shouldn't use "Indian" or even "American Indian" but "Native American" is an inaccurate term for the current living ancestors of the natives that lived here hundreds of years ago. You were born in the United States, yes? You are native to North America. You are a native American. Similarly, there are white people who have relatives in Africa, which makes them... you guessed it.... African American.

Oh god, poor white people just get to be called "Americans". The humanity!

 

[Nate]

and you're telling me that Japanese people didn't wear glasses and Jews don't handle money at one time!?


THE INJUSTICE!

That's not what I'm saying. They're all obviously caricatures, you're just in denial about the white ones.

 

[Chris Craig]

So out of curiosity, how many generations of my family need to live in America before we're officially considered "Native Americans?"

Because historically even the "native" peoples of North America are thought to have migrated here, and since "native" means "a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth" and indigenous means "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native." I'm having a hard time seeing how "Native Americans" can realistically be used to describe the descendants of many nations of peoples who lived here when the colonists came over.

Seriously? I'm shaking my head right now. Have some respect, as you would, or at least should for all other races. They are Native Americans because they were here before we got here, and stole there land and cattle and raped their women. That shit is what Cleveland's team name and logo represent, not the true nature of a great people.

 

[Natebishop3]

Oh god, poor white people just get to be called "Americans". The humanity!

Or we're all just Americans, because we all come from different backgrounds and we don't need to single out every single difference?

 

[julius]

That's not what I'm saying. They're all obviously caricatures, you're just in denial about the white ones.

They aren't done for comedic effect or to emphasize negative stereo types.

 

[julius]

Or we're all just Americans, because we all come from different backgrounds and we don't need to single out every single difference?

says the guy who is of the group that has historically gotten to decide who is and isn't an American. So magnanimous of you to say we don't need to single out every difference anymore.

 

[Natebishop3]

Seriously? I'm shaking my head right now. Have some respect, as you would, or at least should for all other races. They are Native Americans because they were here before we got here, and stole there land and cattle and raped their women. That shit is what Cleveland's team name and logo represent, not the true nature of a great people.

Well shit man, the Vikings stole and raped and murdered all up and down Europe. They were prolific pirates in their time. Why doesn't anyone care that there are sports teams with names like Pittsburgh Pirates, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, or Minnesota Vikings?

 

[Nate]

They aren't done for comedic effect or to emphasize negative stereo types.

Do you have any clue about the history of Vikings? So the white caricatures aren't done for comedic effect, nor do they emphasize negative stereotypes? Really? It's not a stereotype that white people invade, rape, pillage, and conquer? Like what the Vikings did? It's not a negative stereotype that Irish people get in fights a lot? The stupid little leprechaun isn't a comedic representation of Irish people?

 

[Natebishop3]

says the guy who is of the group that has historically gotten to decide who is and isn't an American. So magnanimous of you to say we don't need to single out every difference anymore.

You have to see the irony in one white guy telling another white guy that he doesn't get to have an opinion on the matter BECAUSE he's a white guy.