Notice Climate Change fear! Greatest hoax on the youth of the world in this Century!

[MarAzul]

 

[MarAzul]

That's like saying since everyone dies, cigarettes aren't bad for you.

I came back to check this contribution.
Did you get help from Cup?

 

[crandc]

Yes, the world's climate scientists are all in a vast left wing conspiracy to convince dumb kids and adults the glaciers are melting. Fortunately we have heroic oil companies, Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump around to tell us it's all fake news.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

What I find interesting about the conversations on here, is I’ll give @MarAzul some credit, he posts numbers, articles, stuff that would help his cause in an argument and really no one seems to challenge it, its just laugh him off and snide comments...

Yeah I think Climate change is real, but honestly if this was an actual debate he’d be winning right now, because in this and other threads no one has really provided anything to the discussion but ad hominem.

Now Im not saying I agree with him, but this to me is part of the issue with the whole discussion. Instead of having discussion about things its either you agree or we’ll just laugh you off in a condescending manner.

 

[Hoopguru]

Many of them don't want help. I remember several years back they set up a fenced in area for homeless people to set up camp, but they had rules such as being inside the community at a certain time, no drugs and other stipulations. It didn't succeed because they didn't like having to be accountable.

For those that don't want help but rather just vagrant the streets and do nothing, give them one way ticket to LA.
For those that want help and are willing to help themselves some, great, let the City/County establish a workable plan and address the problem.

 

[e_blazer]

This link goes to an MIT website that provides links to multiple FAQ pages on reputable climate science sites:

https://cgcs.mit.edu/education-outreach/climate-change-faqs

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

So where's your post with numbers and articles? It's fine to give credit to Marz for his charts....he understands oceanography fairly well being a sailor but he might sing a different tune if his land were in the Amazon …...or the medicine he needs becomes unavailable due to extinction of a species in that rainforest....there's plenty of info to support that humans have a negative impact on environmental management...I lead by example...that's my argument for the carbon footprint. If you or anyone chooses to ignore it as reality...so be it. I'm not selling global warming to anyone but trying to stop bad habits that contribute to it. People either give a fuck or they don't. Honestly...nobody wins this if it's a debate …..we all lose.

I had no intention of arguing either way. Thus I posted no argument. Just saying the generally snide comments, and condescending tone doesn't really refute whatever points he’s making.

I disagree with your end statement, I think we all lose if there isn't healthy dialogue and discussion on important matters, climate change, laws, etc. My opinion is the lack of healthy debate and discussion is why it seems like weve all lost (Hello Trump!)...

You literally say they care or they dont, well what if they care and they just show it differently than you do? Or maybe they care less than you? Too often IMO the behavior is you feel just as strongly about a subject as I do or you dont care. Or you think differently about this than I do so you dont care. Yeah there are people out there that dont care and wont care, but I guess I just see it differently.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

so what? people can weigh in on topics without "refuting" someone else's system of beliefs..Marz is often condescending about opposing views..there doesn't have to be a "winner" or even debate....I get that you like the neutral zone...that's all fine....so is taking a stance even if it's controversial and in my case it's even better if it's funny. You're talking about Marz idea that global warming is a hoax....I've yet to know if you agree with him or not..I personally think it's a concern for anyone who has a long term view of the planet and future generations. I also don't think people need to follow my concern about it

I like balance and understanding people’s perspectives. Im far from neutral on many things, but I value understanding others and listening more than arguing my opinions. Yeah I have my stances, last weekend I was fielding a game of 20 questions because Im home schooling my kids, spent plenty of time in this forum talking about racism, and many of my opinions oh and the Blazers...

His idea wasn't that Climate change is a hoax, it’s that there is little humans can do about it, and the idea that in 12 years the end is coming because of it.

Seems like he’s the only one taking a controversial stance here.

 

[e_blazer]

In my view, the OT section is usually so snarky that it’s hard to discuss anything intelligently. People will say horribly rude things to others when it doesn’t involve direct face to face interaction. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Marzy and being invited on the Marazul. I enjoyed my time with him a great deal and what he’s done in building and sailing that craft is incredibly impressive. He shared with me some of the frustrations he’s had with rigid government regulations relating to sailing the MarAzul. It’s not surprising that his views on government programs, even when well intended, are a bit jaded. I don’t agree with him on climate change, but he doe raise some interesting questions. I think in general it would be great if people could be a bit less caustic in expressing differing opinions and takes.

Yeah, like that’s gonna happen around here.

 

[e_blazer]

I like balance and understanding people’s perspectives. Im far from neutral on many things, but I value understanding others and listening more than arguing my opinions. Yeah I have my stances, last weekend I was fielding a game of 20 questions because Im home schooling my kids, spent plenty of time in this forum talking about racism, and many of my opinions oh and the Blazers...

His idea wasn't that Climate change is a hoax, it’s that there is little humans can do about it, and the idea that in 12 years the end is coming because of it.

Seems like he’s the only one taking a controversial stance here.

I think that’s an area that I struggle with as well. I read an MIT report that said that the difference by2050 between doing nothing vs going fully in accord with the Paris accord on climate change was only about a tenth of a degree Centigrade in average temperature.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I think that’s an area that I struggle with as well. I read an MIT report that said that the difference by2050 between doing nothing vs going fully in accord with the Paris accord on climate change was only about a tenth of a degree Centigrade in average temperature.

Heck I realize you, and riverman and marazul, and lanny, and cup are all intelligent people. When it comes to Climate Change definitely more intelligent / educated then I am, because I have chosen to study different things. Its not that I dont care though, because I do. I actually come into threads like this to read what you guys think and how you got there because it helps me to take a stance or to question where I am on it.

 

[calvin natt]

What I find interesting about the conversations on here, is I’ll give @MarAzul some credit, he posts numbers, articles, stuff that would help his cause in an argument and really no one seems to challenge it, its just laugh him off and snide comments...

Yeah I think Climate change is real, but honestly if this was an actual debate he’d be winning right now, because in this and other threads no one has really provided anything to the discussion but ad hominem.

Now Im not saying I agree with him, but this to me is part of the issue with the whole discussion. Instead of having discussion about things its either you agree or we’ll just laugh you off in a condescending manner.

You need numbers and stats on climate change? There are a gazillion we can find in seconds. If this was a debate, and it was about winning or losing it wouldn’t be close. But both sides have to care. I don’t. Going round and round with MarAzul or Maris is not enjoyable for me. It’s pointless. I don’t think they even believe what they write it’s so nonsensical.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

figurative speech, not literal speech....I literally said people give a fuck about environmental concerns or they don't...same as littering..I see folks litter everyday.

Fair enough. I took what you were saying incorrectly, I apologize.

 

[MarAzul]

You're talking about Marz idea that global warming is a hoax...

His idea wasn't that Climate change is a hoax, it’s that there is little humans can do about it, and the idea that in 12 years the end is coming because of it.

Seems like he’s the only one taking a controversial stance here.

I did not intend to take a side, in any thread I post on the technical discussion on Climate Change. I always take the side that we do indeed have climate change in progress, and we have for my entire life time as well as those of all here.
It is no hoax, but those that would have us do what they demand to stop it, curtail it, reverse it, are in my view, fear mongering if not orchestrating a hoax on the gullible.

What is a climate change scientist? The forces at play here to product the Climate Changes we are indeed experiencing involve, Physics, Geology, Oceanography, Geography, hydrodynamics, as well as climatology. Then you need history and anthropology, along with mathematics to see the architecture. Plenty of room to weigh in with what you have. But please, forget the politics, leave this to the charlatans. We have them in abundance today.

 

[calvin natt]

There are plenty of brilliant scientists who believe humans have a big role in the change of our climate. Scientists much smarter than I am. They are not part of some crazy conspiracy that all the liberals have stealthily put together to scare the shit out of people. I believe people who have devoted their lives to science above those who drive boats or crunch numbers or sell software or play politics. If my heart is failing I go to experts in cardiology. I don’t take some random persons opinion because he read something somewhere that it’s not really my heart it’s actually something else. But for fun, let’s say it has nothing to do with humans. Scientists have also said what can be done to help climate change. Why don’t we do that? I guess it’s like guns. Since we don’t think it’ll eradicate all issues with climate or guns who gives a fuck let’s just ride with it.

 

[MarAzul]

There are plenty of brilliant scientists who believe humans have a big role in the change of our climate.

Name one scientist that actually says, he/she believes humans have a big role in change of our climate. Link please.

I have never heard any scientist express their evidence or supporting data as a belief or believe.

humans have a big role in the change of our climate

The question is not about whether humans have a role in the change. The real question is can humans affect sufficient change to alter the climate cycle.
Huge difference here and what the Charlatans would have us do.

 

[riverman]

I got off track here..erased that last bit....nature is more powerful than most anything man can make. Humans can probably succeed in making the planet impossible for humans to live on..

 

[ABM]

I found this to be interesting...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

There are plenty of brilliant scientists who believe humans have a big role in the change of our climate. Scientists much smarter than I am. They are not part of some crazy conspiracy that all the liberals have stealthily put together to scare the shit out of people. I believe people who have devoted their lives to science above those who drive boats or crunch numbers or sell software or play politics. If my heart is failing I go to experts in cardiology. I don’t take some random persons opinion because he read something somewhere that it’s not really my heart it’s actually something else. But for fun, let’s say it has nothing to do with humans. Scientists have also said what can be done to help climate change. Why don’t we do that? I guess it’s like guns. Since we don’t think it’ll eradicate all issues with climate or guns who gives a fuck let’s just ride with it.

The issue is this though, while I "think" climate change is occurring and some portion of that is from Humans and Humans may be able to effect it, that doesn't mean I can't question aspects of it. My team at work consists of an FPGA Engineer, two electrical engineers, a guy with a Ph.D. in Physics (I'm not sure what we call him heh), two SW Engineers (including me) and we disagree and have to agree to disagree on so many things. It's attributed to Einstein, but the saying "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right, but one experiment can prove me wrong." Is a good bit of wisdom for any scientist, engineer, philosopher, etc even the smartest of us has a very small sliver of knowledge to hypothesize with.

Many brilliant minds have fought against the zeitgeists of there day, some proved to be right some did not. It's not any different today. I'm not at all saying to ignore Climate change or what the "Experts" think but you have to understand that experts are still fallible people and in every single profession or school of thought people can get wrapped into circular thoughts. I don't think it's at all "wrong" to question the experts, in fact, it's very unscientific to not question things.

My dad went to one of the top Cardiologists in the state told him his heart was fine, went to another for a second opinion found out he had a bicuspid valve that was leaking people can be wrong.

tldr; People no matter how smart are fallible (and no I'm not trying to claim I'm smart) including me, and being inquisitive is important in seeking the truth as is listening. Sometimes the experts are just right, and this may be a case that they are.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Personally I think climate change is a natural cycle for the earth that has been occurring (and recurring) for hundreds of millions of years and is caused by all kind of conditions that are basically inherent to this planet. My opinion is that human activities are simply accelerating the current climate change cycle. The change was going to happen whether we were here or not, we’re just speeding up the process. Not saying that’s good or bad, just that it’s happening. After all, humans technically are nothing more a higher form of “bacteria” who are working to break down their “food source” i.e.; the earth. Just like bacteria everywhere! Except we have brains....which make us much more dangerous.....

 

[jonnyboy]

What I find interesting about the conversations on here, is I’ll give @MarAzul some credit, he posts numbers, articles, stuff that would help his cause in an argument and really no one seems to challenge it, its just laugh him off and snide comments...

Yeah I think Climate change is real, but honestly if this was an actual debate he’d be winning right now, because in this and other threads no one has really provided anything to the discussion but ad hominem.

Now Im not saying I agree with him, but this to me is part of the issue with the whole discussion. Instead of having discussion about things its either you agree or we’ll just laugh you off in a condescending manner.

People seem to think being smug is an acceptable alternative for intelligence.

 

[jonnyboy]

Personally I think climate change is a natural cycle for the earth that has been occurring (and recurring) for hundreds of millions of years and is caused by all kind of conditions that are basically inherent to this planet. My opinion is that human activities are simply accelerating the current climate change cycle. The change was going to happen whether we were here or not, we’re just speeding up the process. Not saying that’s good or bad, just that it’s happening. After all, humans technically are nothing more a higher form of “bacteria” who are working to break down their “food source” i.e.; the earth. Just like bacteria everywhere! Except we have brains....which make us much more dangerous.....

This is where I’m at. I don’t flat out deny humans being a source of pollution and helping to accelerate the inevitable. I just don’t think the “solution” is taking more money from the poor and middle class in the form of taxes. I think politicians have jumped on this issue with dollar signs in their eyes and they can go fuck themselves.

 

[riverman]

Yesterday was clear and 71 degrees....today is pissing rain, cloudy and dark, Climate change is for real!

 

[MarAzul]

Ah! It's a good day! Sitting here in my boat doing a bit of research on Climate Change and the why's of some ocean currents. But more to the point, the affect Climate of these currents or perhaps the lack of affect if and when these currents change.
Even more important, a possible insight into what is not being studied or taken into account by the scientist that work on Climate Change. Note, I did not say Climate or Climate Change Scientist. I ought to be working on my electrical system but
I shall this afternoon, after I type up these findings.

I sort of wondered yesterday about why the current through the Bering Strait, is always continuing, from the Pacific (Bering Sea) north through the strait, into the Arctic Ocean. I sort of assumed this is warm water warming the Arctic. But, not so!!!
So what the heck is warming the Arctic?

Well another image of the currents, it show what does warm the Arctic.


Look at that! Currents running into the Arctic Sea from both the Pacific through the Bering Strait and from the Atlantic via the Norwegian Sea. I guess I had always envisioned the Gulf Stream running to the UK and Norway.
Ah well, no wonder the so much ice melted in the Arctic, got a giant hot river up there.

But why? Currents flow in the Sea as primarily function of water seeking a common level in the basin, in equilibrium with gravity, and the cold saline, more dense waters seeking the low points as gravity dictates. This is still true
but???

Sometime back I mentioned the Sea over the earth would seek to be level with a sinusoid curve, filling to the level of the curve from the Equator, to the poles. This curve over the already, sinusoid curved earth would be Sea Level, world wide.
Local hot or cold spots and storm surges being ignored. I used these terms because I more or less just sensed the mathimatical picture, but now I find people have indeed given this some study and explain it much better and use different terminology.

I include a link here for those that wish to follow along. It does in my mind answer some questions I have about climate change, and why we have cycles. I do not find any of this in articles about Climate change therefore leaving a big question in my mind.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/centrifugal-force

 

[MarAzul]

So now the question is, why does warm currents always flow into the Arctic ocean? Well there is only one answer that would be in order with the laws of physics, The sea level there is too low in relations to the surrounding seas. Water flows down hill to the low point, period.

Now we are back to the question, what is down hill in relations to "Sea Level"

Another article.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/geoids
Ah! Our Planet is Geoid, not a sinusoid curve! Ok, I can go with that.

Now back to a paragraph from the prior link in the article about centrifugal force.

" The mathematical expression for centrifugal acceleration (force divided by density) is

centrifugal acceleration=Ω2r

where Ω is the rotation rate of Earth, equal to 2π/T where T is the length of day, and r is Earth’s radius. Because the centrifugal acceleration is nearly constant in time and points outward, away from Earth’s axis of rotation, we usually combine it formally with the gravitational force, which points toward Earth’s center. We replace g in Eq.(7.6)with an effective gravity g, which has a weak dependence on latitude. Hereafter, we do not refer separately to the centrifugal force. The surface perpendicular to this combined force is called the geoid. If the ocean were not moving relative to Earth, its surface would align with the geoid.

In short scientist use the short or condensed definition of gravity. Gravity minus the opposing force, centrifugal force. And worse yet ignoring the "weak dependence on latitude. Oh my goodness that weak dependence is the cosign of the latitude and it is hardly weak until it approaches 90 degrees where it is indeed weak at zero.

From this I can see why the currents always run to Arctic. That ocean in not full enough to complete the geoid shape of the earth with it's ocean overlay. The magma earth is complete but ocean overlay is incomplete due to insufficient water.
The centrifugal forces of the earth have spun the oceans out the maximum where the surface of water at it's density is in equilibrium with "Gravity", as is the Southern Ocean with Antarctica occupying the axial center, but not the Arctic Ocean. More ice needs to melt. Then the currents will not need to continually fill that sea while bringing much heat to Arctic.

I read much about sea level change, but it has slowed way way down and the trend is down. I read much about measurement in the Bering straits, temperatures, flows, fairly constant, but nothing about it rising. I would not expect it to rise at that point if it were at the geoid sea level. So I think we can assume it is. But not in latitude above the latitude of 67 N where the Bering Strait is. Now we do hear much about Sea level rise on the Norwegian Coast and much of it is more than 67 North, perhaps in the geiod deficit zone.
I never read where a Climate Scientist considers the filling of the geoid. But then, grants are issued to find out about CO2 and such. There might not be one grant out there to study when the Geoid might be complete in the North.

Now the question is in my mind, how close to filling this void, must we come before the currents slow enough for the Ice making machine to kick in? We toggle!

 

[MarAzul]

How much more water are we talking about. Geez, I can only speculate here from data that we currently know.
We know the Strait of Malacca is about 100 feet deep, it covered some 8000 years ago, perhaps a little less. Being on the equator, we can now assume the ocean is now at the level that represents the maximum radius the earth Geoid shape of water can take given the short form of Gravity. We do know that the full geoid level did move north during this period because the land bridge at the Bering straits closed but not to the level of 155 feet deep there yet.
So I guess the sea covered the Strait of Malacca and then topped out with 66 more feet of water to reach the maximum in equilibrium at the equator. I'll use the cosine of latitude to estimate where level should be in the North to complete the Geoid.
Not entirely right but close enough.

Bering Strait. 67 N cos of 67 equals .39 x 66= 25.8 feet that sea level rose there to complete the geoid at that latitude. We are at least filled this far north
? 70 n .34 = 22.6 feet " Unknown if we are there
80n .17 = 11.6'
85n .0857 = 5.75'

I rather doubt it will ever complete before sea level changes reverses direction. Nor can I see what men could do, to change this engine.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I rather doubt it will ever complete before sea level changes reverses direction. Neither can I see what men could do, to change this engine.

Salinity effects ocean currents. It's decreased salinity caused by glacier melting that can stop the North Atlantic Conveyor Belt.

So yes, human action can effect this engine.

 

[MarAzul]

Salinity effects ocean currents

Yes it does. It is actually the reason for the deep water current draining the Arctic sea into the Atlantic deep. If it weren't for that, I think the Geoid might fill a little faster. But only as much as lessor density/thermal expansion would increase the volume of sea water available to fill the geoid.

The North Atlantic current running into the Arctic will indeed stop when the Geoid fills or gets close enough. Damned if I know how to stop this. I expect we will first notice it by a reduction in current velocity at the monitoring station in the Bering Strait. I am not sure they have another spot so closely watched.

 

[MarAzul]

Well, now that I think of it, it could be we get the news from the Norwegian's. Their coast line including some habited Fjords probably will be affected with sea levels rising. But those are still rising out of the sea from the weight of the last Ice age.
So it is yet to know.

 

[The Professional Fan]