Collins Summer League Analysis

[Boob-No-More]

Banging with Nurk in practice will likely have far more effect on his game than a big man coach.

Not the same thing. It may toughen him up, and that's a good thing, but it won't teach him low post foot work or defensive fundamentals.

BNM

 

[JDC]

Not the same thing. It may toughen him up, and that's a good thing, but it won't teach him low post foot work or defensive fundamentals.

BNM

I could say the same thing about the teachings from a "big man coach".

Instruction and information from a coach only goes so far. A players ability to take that and apply that to their game is a much larger determining factor in whether a player is bad/average/good in a certain area. And that ability is driven by a players feel/instincts/reaction time/pattern recognition skills etc., all areas of which Noah and Meyers have shown some level of deficiency in.

And yes, Meyers has regressed since Hughes has left. I'm not sure why that has to be an indictment of Tibbets/Osbourne/Moran abilities as coaches.

I could easily explain the regression on an outlier shooting year followed by an increased volume of 3pt attempts which his release speed/lack of shooting versatility couldn't support. Playing further away from the basket/playing with Ed Davis also could explain the rebounding drop-off. Then you add in the shoulder injury last year.

I'm not trying to totally explain away the idea they coaching is why or bigs haven't developed as much as we'd like but that your argument as to why is a gross oversimplification of the situation.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Someone say big man coach?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Someone say big man coach?

And who does he credit for making him into an all star? Kim Hughes...

BTW, Kaman has expressed no interest in coaching. I'm sure if Paul Allen threw enough money at him, he'd do it, but I'd prefer someone who actually WANTS to coach.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I could say the same thing about the teachings from a "big man coach".

Instruction and information from a coach only goes so far. A players ability to take that and apply that to their game is a much larger determining factor in whether a player is bad/average/good in a certain area. And that ability is driven by a players feel/instincts/reaction time/pattern recognition skills etc., all areas of which Noah and Meyers have shown some level of deficiency in.

And yes, Meyers has regressed since Hughes has left. I'm not sure why that has to be an indictment of Tibbets/Osbourne/Moran abilities as coaches.

I could easily explain the regression on an outlier shooting year followed by an increased volume of 3pt attempts which his release speed/lack of shooting versatility couldn't support. Playing further away from the basket/playing with Ed Davis also could explain the rebounding drop-off. Then you add in the shoulder injury last year.

I'm not trying to totally explain away the idea they coaching is why or bigs haven't developed as much as we'd like but that your argument as to why is a gross oversimplification of the situation.

So, what exactly is the downside of hiring a proven, experienced NBA big man coach?

Hughes has successfully developed several several NBA big men (Kaman, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, LaMarcus Aldridge - yes, Aldridge posted career bests in both points and rebounding under Hughes).

Since Hughes left, Meyers has gone down the toilet. And neither Vonleh nor Plumlee developed a single, reliable, repeatable offensive move. Even Aldridge doesn't look like the same player in SAS that he did his last two years in Portland (when was the last time a player went to SAS and got worse?). Sure it all comes down to the player, his talent, his motivation and his work ethic, but coaching matters.

Again what would be the downside to hiring an experienced, proven NBA big man coach to tutor our young big men?

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

I understand WHY they fired Kim Hughes...... but I really wish they hadn't. Or at least didn't fire him until they had an alternative.

 

[WillG]

This team really does make some perplexing decisions at times, or lack of a decision at all in the case of a big man coach.

Their decisions really make me feel they are borderline inept at times - why would you have a bunch of promising forwards and no freaking big man coach?
Why no veteran defender or defensive specialist to work with our team (especially the guards)

It just defies logic and is hair pulling-ly frustrating. . .

 

[Boob-No-More]

This team really does make some perplexing decisions at times, or lack of a decision at all in the case of a big man coach.

Their decisions really make me feel they are borderline inept at times - why would you have a bunch of promising forwards and no freaking big man coach?
Why no veteran defender or defensive specialist to work with our team (especially the guards)

It just defies logic and is hair pulling-ly frustrating. . .

Like, like, like, a million times like!

I actually like Stotts and his staff, but they have their limits. Neil and Paul should realize this and make the appropriate hire.

I like the idea of bringing in a true 3 & D guy to replace Crabbe's shooting, to add the perimeter D we are sorely and obviously lacking, and most of all act like a coach on the floor for our young guys. Gerald Henderson kind of filled that role when he was here. He seemed to bring the right level of focused intensity combined with a calming veteran presence. He played hard, but didn't lose his cool (well, except that time he got into it with Shaun Livingston, but I think that was intentional. Curry was out and I think Gerald was trying to bait Shaun into mixing it up so they would both get ejected - i.e. taking one for the team).

I'm not sure how much of a leader Courtney Lee is, but he certainly would bring the 3 & D player we have been lacking since Wes ruptured his Achilles.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to try to get Jared Dudley from the Suns. He's a veteran 3 & D guy with a very high BBIQ. He will definitely have options once his playing days are over. I could see him in either a broadcasting, or a coaching role. He would fill the "coach on the floor" role quite nicely.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I understand WHY they fired Kim Hughes...... but I really wish they hadn't. Or at least didn't fire him until they had an alternative.

Over two years later, two years of massive regression from Meyers and no offensive development from Noah, and they still haven't identified a replacement.

This big man coach by a committee of small men just isn't cutting it.

BNM

 

[JDC]

So, what exactly is the downside of hiring a proven, experienced NBA big man coach?

Hughes has successfully developed several several NBA big men (Kaman, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, LaMarcus Aldridge - yes, Aldridge posted career bests in both points and rebounding under Hughes).

Since Hughes left, Meyers has gone down the toilet. And neither Vonleh nor Plumlee developed a single, reliable, repeatable offensive move. Even Aldridge doesn't look like the same player in SAS that he did his last two years in Portland (when was the last time a player went to SAS and got worse?). Sure it all comes down to the player, his talent, his motivation and his work ethic, but coaching matters.

Again what would be the downside to hiring an experienced, proven NBA big man coach to tutor our young big men?

BNM

There isn't.

I just don't subscribe to idea that Meyers and Noah's lack of progression or that none of our big man coaches are "big" is any kind of argument for bringing in someone to coach bigs specifically. Look around the league, it's a pretty rare thing.

Ask any NBA coach and they'll say, "If you can coach, you can coach.", and I'm not going sit here and question our current coaches abilities when we have next to zero information to make any sort of definite conclusions.

Plus, the summer is where these guys really make considerable improvements. A time where they are free to work with any trainer they'd like and have opportunities to participate in camps specifically geared towards skill development for bigs.

Simply put, they have every chance to reach their full potential in this league and the reasons why most don't is a hell of a lot more complicated than who does or doesn't coach them.

 

[Natebishop3]

Over two years later, two years of massive regression from Meyers and no offensive development from Noah, and they still haven't identified a replacement.

This big man coach by a committee of small men just isn't cutting it.

BNM

It doesn't even make sense. This HAS to be on Stotts. The salary cap keeps Paul from spending unlimited money on our roster, but I have never understood why we don't have the damn best staff money can buy. There's no salary cap for the staff.

 

[e_blazer]

It doesn't even make sense. This HAS to be on Stotts. The salary cap keeps Paul from spending unlimited money on our roster, but I have never understood why we don't have the damn best staff money can buy. There's no salary cap for the staff.

I'm sorry, but you're not speaking Vulcan.

 

[riverman]

I'm always lobbying for a big man coach.....same wish....Bill Laimbeer!

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Needing a big man coach who is a big man is basically a fallacy.

 

[Boob-No-More]

There isn't.

I just don't subscribe to idea that Meyers and Noah's lack of progression or that none of our big man coaches are "big" is any kind of argument for bringing in someone to coach bigs specifically. Look around the league, it's a pretty rare thing.

It's not at all rare. In fact, it's very common and getting more so every year. Most teams have at least one guy, 6'10" or bigger on their staff, often a younger guy who can get out there and bang with the big men in practice. They are usually just called an assistant coach, but their job is to work with and develop the team's big men.

Don't forget that Kim Hughes was a big man coach with the Clippers for several years before he came to Portland in the exact same role. Patrick Ewing was an assistant coach for 15 years, much of it in HOU, where he worked with Yao Ming and ORL where he tutored Dwight Howard.

There are still plenty of older, former bigs on NBA coaching staffs (Walter McCarty in BOS, Jarron Collins in GSW, Juwan Howard in MIA, Aaron Gray in DET, Mark Madsen in LAL, Greg Foster and Scott Williams in MIL, Mark Bryant in OKC, Ed Pinkney in MIN, etc.), but the more recent trend is to hire younger big men that can get out o the floor and bang with the players, guys like Dave Bliss, who was first hired by OKC and then moved on to the Knicks where he has been instrumental in developing Kristaps Porzingis and Willy Hernangomez, and Ben Sullivan in ATL. These days, the trend is to rest your veteran starters more and more during practice. Which means the young guys need big bodies to bang with and teach them the tricks of the trade. Here's a recent article on the subject, specifically about Dave Bliss:

Latest NBA Hiring Trend: Younger, Smarter, Stronger Assistant Coaches in Demand

With no big man on their coaching staff, the Blazers are definitely behind the times.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm always lobbying for a big man coach.....same wish....Bill Laimbeer!

My big man coaching dream team would be Kevin McHale and Bill Laimbeer. I know McHale is doing the broadcasting thing now and Laimbeer has been a head coach in the WNBA for a long time, but every man has his price and Paul Allen can easily meet, or exceed that price...

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Needing a big man coach who is a big man is basically a fallacy.

Yeah, how's that working out for the Blazers? How's Meyers developed since Kim Hughes was fired? Noah Vonleh still doesn't have a single, reliable offensive move (and neither did Mason Plumlee while he was here) and was the lowest scoring player to start at least 41 games last season.

The fallacy here is that the Blazers don't need a big man coach. We had a damn good one, who was getting results, fired him and haven't bothered to replace him in over two years.

BNM

 

[riverman]

I was wondering if by gones could be by gones and they hire Kim Hughes back after the slap on the wrist...he's a real close friend of Neil's from what they both said...

 

[Boob-No-More]

I was wondering if by gones could be by gones and they hire Kim Hughes back after the slap on the wrist...he's a real close friend of Neil's from what they both said...

He's also from the Midwest and used to spend time during the summers working with Meyers and Kaman in IL and MI. I think it would be worth it to re-hire him just to try to salvage something from that $41 million contract Neil and Paul gave Meyers. Right now, that's looking like a REALLY bad investment. Even if Hughes could just get Meyers back to where he had him two years ago, it would be a huge improvement. Based on the scuttlebutt in the huge Carmelo megathread, Meyers currently has as much, or more, negative trade value as Ryan Anderson. Which really sucks given that Meyers makes less than half as much and is 5 years younger.

BNM

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Yeah, how's that working out for the Blazers? How's Meyers developed since Kim Hughes was fired? Noah Vonleh still doesn't have a single, reliable offensive move (and neither did Mason Plumlee while he was here) and was the lowest scoring player to start at least 41 games last season.

The fallacy here is that the Blazers don't need a big man coach. We had a damn good one, who was getting results, fired him and haven't bothered to replace him in over two years.

BNM

No. There are many, many examples of coaches across different sports (swimming, for example) where the successful coach wasn't similar to the player being coached.

You're not happy with the development of our big man, and you see the problem as the coaches. You may be right, I'm not sure. But, the idea that the coach needs to be a big man is fallacious.

 

[Boob-No-More]

No. There are many, many examples of coaches across different sports (swimming, for example) where the successful coach wasn't similar to the player being coached.

You're not happy with the development of our big man, and you see the problem as the coaches. You may be right, I'm not sure. But, the idea that the coach needs to be a big man is fallacious.

There are also plenty examples of the opposite - where someone skilled at an endeavor is able to leverage their experience to help others improve in that same area.

Whatever the case, do you agree that Meyers, especially, and Noah, as well, haven't exactly improved by leaps and bounds? If that's true, whatever we are doing now is not working. With the additions of Collins, Swanigan and Nurkic, it's time to try something new (or old, in the case of rehiring Hughes).

BNM

 

[Wizard Mentor]

There are also plenty examples of the opposite - where someone skilled at an endeavor is able to leverage their experience to help others improve in that same area.

Whatever the case, do you agree that Meyers, especially, and Noah, as well, haven't exactly improved by leaps and bounds? If that's true, whatever we are doing now is not working. With the additions of Collins, Swanigan and Nurkic, it's time to try something new (or old, in the case of rehiring Hughes).

BNM

Meyers: He hasn't grown, but I don't think it's particularly basketball related - maybe we need a better sports psychologist?

Noah: Not sure. His defense has vastly improved, but he's not even looking at the basket. Seems like the coaches are trying to simplify things for him and it's worked. However, it'd be nice if he didn't need things THAT simplified.... Hopefully, with his new defensive chops, he can turn his attention to offense which I have no doubt he'll be good at.... if he plays with confidence (perhaps a coaching issue?).

They're not going to rehire Hughes. I just wish they would have demoted him and ban him from the media. I DO like the idea of hiring someone new, I just don't think they need to be 6'8" or taller.

Finally, I don't think the onus is just on the team to hire someone. Our players with their huge salaries can hire big man coaches themselves, e.g. like Biebs has done this summer. I loved it when his new coach he hired yelled "You're a Shooter" at him

edit: my issue with the coach is completely different! I think the coaches should demand that Aminu shoot like a normal basketball player - i.e. cut out the rainbow shots.

 

[riverman]

I think the coaches should demand that Aminu shoot like a normal basketball player

Chief has been working on his shooting with CJ starting sometime last season.....not a bad shooting coach for him. People forget Chief is still pretty young himself and improving ..coachable guy

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Chief has been working on his shooting with CJ starting sometime last season.....not a bad shooting coach for him. People forget Chief is still pretty young himself and improving ..coachable guy

Part of me: Sweet!
Other part of me: Show me the non-rainbow shot!

 

[riverman]

Part of me: Sweet!
Other part of me: Show me the non-rainbow shot!

I think it'll look better now that he's healed ...he was banged up last season and should be healthy...I expect him to be much better....Chief is a steal at his price

 

[Boob-No-More]

Meyers: He hasn't grown, but I don't think it's particularly basketball related - maybe we need a better sports psychologist?

But he was improving substantially, before Hughes was fired. He hasn't just regressed, he is now significantly worse than he was as a rookie.

They're not going to rehire Hughes. I just wish they would have demoted him and ban him from the media. I DO like the idea of hiring someone new, I just don't think they need to be 6'8" or taller.

Finally, I don't think the onus is just on the team to hire someone. Our players with their huge salaries can hire big man coaches themselves, e.g. like Biebs has done this summer. I loved it when his new coach he hired yelled "You're a Shooter" at him

I think Neil, or more likely Paul, underestimated the impact firing Hughes would have on Meyers. Meyers grew up without a dad and I think he looked to Hughes as a sort of substitute father figure. Maybe that's just pop psychology and speculations on my part, but they were both Midwest guys and worked out together in the Midwest during the off season.

I really think it was Paul, not Neil that was behind the Hughes firing. As mentioned, Neil and Kim were close from their Clippers' days. Neil may have been fine (more blatant speculation) with demoting or chastising Hughes, but Paul seems to come down hard on anyone who oversteps their bounds or says anything remotely critical of the organization (KPee and Cho). He also seems to hold grudges against these guys, which likely means no Kim Hughes rehire, and I wouldn't be surprised if Myers has been "discouraged" from hiring Hughes as a personal coach/trainer.

I get that Hughes overstepped his role, but what was done was done. It's not like Hughes' comments caused LaMarcus to leave. They did not, Aldridge had already made his decision. I think it's the way it was said that likely pissed off Paul. The whole "we lost LaMarcus Aldridge" quote could be construed as critical of the organization, that they didn't do enough to try to keep Aldridge. Not that Aldridge chose San Antonio, but that the Blazers had "lost" him.

The very next sentence out of Hughes' mouth:

"We will go young and we depend on Meyers [Leonard] to play a lot of minutes."

Well, we all know how that worked out. Obviously, Kim Hughes believed in Meyers and thought he could continue to help Meyers improve.

At this point, for whatever reason, the Blazers have pretty much pissed away any potential Meyers Leonard had to become a decent NBA player. Let's hope they don't do the same with Zach Collins. I know it ultimately comes down to the player, but giving that player everything possible to help them reach their potential is also a function of the organization.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Bob Hill was well known as one of the best big man coaches (he's still highly regarded). I don't think he is even 6 ft. tall. Nor did he play NBA ball.

So I don't think it's right to think about the height of the coach, or even NBA playing experience.

 

[riverman]

Bob Hill was well known as one of the best big man coaches (he's still highly regarded). I don't think he is even 6 ft. tall. Nor did he play NBA ball.

So I don't think it's right to think about the height of the coach, or even NBA playing experience.

I agree with this.....heavy weight boxing coaches look like horse racing jockeys or sweaty pawn shop owners more often than they look like athletes....as much as I dislike him as a broadcaster...Hubie Brown is a hell of a big man coach...or small guard coach...he just understands fundamentals on that level...his book is brilliant...I just wish he wouldn't quote it line for line every game he calls. over and over and over.....Hubie should just coach, period.

 

[Denny Crane]

Thibs turned Noah into DPOY and NBA 1st Team.

I didn't think much of Noah for his first few seasons. He didn't look like he had any skills.

 

[riverman]

Thibs turned Noah into DPOY and NBA 1st Team.

I didn't think much of Noah for his first few seasons. He didn't look like he had any skills.

A true defensive coordinator on the bench like Thibs started out is under rated in value. Doc looked great when he had Thibs...Pops had Malone as a defensive coordinator...Nate McMillan was a great defensive coordinator for the Pacers and team USA ..my biggest complaint about Stotts is that he eliminated that job description and made everyone a generic assistant coach...it's correctable though