Conley and Gay?
- Thread starter Fez Hammersticks
- Start date
Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
Nikolokolus
There's always next year
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 30,704
- Likes
- 6,198
- Points
- 113
individual talent and upside have almost nothing to do with wins and losses ... just because our extremely young team has been having some success doesn't mean that's the norm or that other young teams should be expecting similar levels of success.
The main difference I see between Rudy Gay and Travis is that Gay is similarly athletic, but much more coordinated and a much better ball handler and a slightly less accurate shooter. Secondly, from what little I've seen, Gay seems to have more court awareness and basic basketball sense. Is he utilizing all of his gifts to their fullest extent and is he a natural leader? Probably "no" on both counts, but if the Blazers were to acquire him it wouldn't be for his leadership abilities.
alex42083
Thanks Brandon
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2008
- Messages
- 7,789
- Likes
- 47
- Points
- 48
Cosigned.
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 26,096
- Likes
- 9,073
- Points
- 113
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bw5cnp
Forget Gay in a 3-way. If PHX is sending them Amar'e, and both want cap relief?
I'll start Mayo next to Roy and love it.
Forget Gay in a 3-way. If PHX is sending them Amar'e, and both want cap relief?
I'll start Mayo next to Roy and love it.
hasoos
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 9,418
- Likes
- 97
- Points
- 48
Well than maybe you should start paying attention. Because if you look at the scores, you will notice that Rudy Gay actually produces at least in the teens, most nights, if not more. Where Travis, for the most part you get one absolutely hot game every 3 or 4 games, and 3 games of absolute filth.
The difference is consistency. Portland is in need of consistency.
Nikolokolus
There's always next year
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2008
- Messages
- 30,704
- Likes
- 6,198
- Points
- 113
That's fine and to Travis' credit that he's developed a credible long range shot. My main point is that composite stats aren't going to tell you everything about a player's game and how they operate in space.
Furthermore, I'm not even sure why we're comparing Travis to Gay anyway (aside from similar per 36 statistical output). Travis has proved to be much more comfortable as a power forward and a bench player rather than as a starting small forward, that's a problem Gay doesn't seem to have.
crowTrobot
die comcast
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,597
- Likes
- 208
- Points
- 63
10x outlaw = superstar waiting to happen, and i don't see that in gay. he is certainly more fluid, but from what i've seen his court awareness and "basic basketball sense" aren't strong points - makes way more than his share of bad forced passes, forces shots with players open, makes poor decisions on defense etc. yes those may be things that can be corrected with coaching, but at the same time i think they're indications he's not exactly another danny granger waiting to happen.
anyway i'm not actually debating outlaw vs. gay or disputing that gay has more upside. i'm using the comparison with outlaw as an example that there's a very good chance gay wouldn't add nearly enough to be worth the cap space, future luxury tax, and multiple major assets it would take to get and keep him. i'd be all for stealing him without giving up bayless or rudy and without taking back any cap-killing contracts, but obviously that's not gonna happen.
cdub503
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,866
- Likes
- 422
- Points
- 83
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=btf8dw
its kinda tough to add pheonix into that mix doubt anyone would go for this
its kinda tough to add pheonix into that mix doubt anyone would go for this
crowTrobot
die comcast
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,597
- Likes
- 208
- Points
- 63
i've been paying very close attention. that's why i'm arguing : )
free_lafrentz
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2009
- Messages
- 474
- Likes
- 5
- Points
- 18
yeah, that's rough on PHX.
LittleAlex
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,824
- Likes
- 54
- Points
- 48
Stats don't tell all that needs to be said about a player. I don't get to see Rudy Gay play very often and I don't want to Simmons this by making an absurd statement about I guy I don't know a lot about.
That said, I think Gay is probably better then outlaw, if only because he might actually get better at some things. T-Law is in his 6th year in the league and still hasn't a clue on D. Gay may be able to be molded into a consistent defender.
I don't see Portland doing this, though, since the last thing they need is to get younger.
That said, I think Gay is probably better then outlaw, if only because he might actually get better at some things. T-Law is in his 6th year in the league and still hasn't a clue on D. Gay may be able to be molded into a consistent defender.
I don't see Portland doing this, though, since the last thing they need is to get younger.
roydezlaw
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 437
- Likes
- 3
- Points
- 18
Hey, when did you start making sense?
cdub503
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,866
- Likes
- 422
- Points
- 83
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 26,096
- Likes
- 9,073
- Points
- 113
So, uh, MEM gives up Gay and Conley for Sergio and Haywood?
roydezlaw
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 437
- Likes
- 3
- Points
- 18
Of course he's better than Outlaw but if we are going after a SF, I'd rather see Granger, Butler or Iguodala.
graybeard
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2008
- Messages
- 219
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 16
roydezlaw
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 437
- Likes
- 3
- Points
- 18
I don't think Memphis wants to take on added salary.
LittleAlex
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,824
- Likes
- 54
- Points
- 48
I thought I was clear that I didn't like dealing for Gay on the basis that Portland doesn't need more inexperience. If not, then consider this clarification.
Granger is too young so I don't really want them to pull the trigger on that. Iggy is pretty good, but only in an up-tempo offense. He would suffer here.
Butler is the only one of the three that would be a perfect fit.
graybeard
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2008
- Messages
- 219
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 16
They do if they want Amare. The suns want cap relief or they wouldn't be trading him.
roydezlaw
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 437
- Likes
- 3
- Points
- 18
LittleAlex
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,824
- Likes
- 54
- Points
- 48
Granger is older then Iguodala? I thought he came into the league when Roy and LA did. If he has 4 or 5 years in the league, then I stand corrected and would give my left nut to get him.
crowTrobot
die comcast
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,597
- Likes
- 208
- Points
- 63
hu?
granger is older than roy and next to lebron and chris paul might be the most ideal player in the entire league to plug in for us. unfortunately he's for practical purposes untouchable.
BalancedMan
That's out of context....
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,318
- Likes
- 20
- Points
- 38
If you can get Gay, you trade Rudy, Outlaw...Batum...whomever to make it happen except for Bayless if you think he'll really develop. Gay is the real deal, will start at SF for the next 10 years alongside Roy, LMA and Oden. And we would have all of their bird rights. Sounds like a good plan to me. One good PG and we're there.
andalusian
Season - Restarted
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2008
- Messages
- 15,337
- Likes
- 14,871
- Points
- 113
I am sorry - but given that Gay hoists 6 more shots per game and plays 10 more minutes per game - of course he is going to consistently be in the teens, especially when you remember that he is the 2nd option after Mayo. Travis is a 3rd option playing less minutes and getting less attempts - is it a surprise that he is not consistently in the teens?
What is more important to notice is that Travis's TS% is actually higher, his block% is higher and his turn-over% is lower.
People on this board are ga-ga over Travis's mistakes - but if you want a consistent production in the teens from Travis - give him the extra minutes that Gay gets and you will get these will less dumb mistakes (Gay's turnober percent is 13.9 vs. Travis's 9.6% - so for every 2 dumb mistakes Travis gives you - you will get 3 from Gay. Whoopee - where do we sign on?
If there is something that Gay might have over Travis - is that he might have a higher ceiling - because he never got consistent coaching - but as a player - he actually has about the same game-time experience as Travis if you look at the minutes they played throughout their career - they both have around 7,000 minutes played - Actually Travis has 150 more minutes played over Rudy - but he was never the #1 option on a team...
The real catch in this trade might actually be Conley - a Conley/Bayless future PG rotation could be very nice - buy Gay, so far in his career - is not much more than a slightly less efficient version of Travis getting bigger minutes on bad teams.
roydezlaw
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 437
- Likes
- 3
- Points
- 18
I'm sure if they include Conley, they'd want Bayless.
LittleAlex
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,824
- Likes
- 54
- Points
- 48
hu?
I already retracted my statement based on Granger's age and would love to add him to the Portland if they can get him.
Not sure who I was thinking about when I made the comment about Granger.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 26,226
- Likes
- 14,407
- Points
- 113
My position on Gay: I agree with crowTrobot that Gay is currently very overrated. His actual level of play doesn't warrant the "young star" reputation he has.
However, I think Gay has a fair amount of potential value. Gay, from my watching him in college and the pros, is what I'd call a "snap together" player. He's shown every tool and ability a wing player can have, in stretches. He just doesn't bring them all at the same time and consistently. He's a player for whom things can snap together and he'll go from average player to excellent player, or things will never quite come together and he'll end up having a Darius Miles type of career (probably minus the knuckle-headedness).
Right now he's producing a fair amount but inefficiently. That's a lot more promising than a player who simply isn't even producing a lot. I wouldn't pay Caron Butler prices for him, but I would value him much more than, say, Travis Outlaw. If RLEC/Outlaw/Webster/draft pick/cash for Gay/bad contract would get the deal done, I'd definitely do it. I'm not sure I'd include Rudy Fernandez. I might if I had a lot more faith in his potential...I don't watch him enough to have such belief in him, but maybe Pritchard and his scouts do, in which case I think it would be reasonable to add Fernandez or Batum.
However, I think Gay has a fair amount of potential value. Gay, from my watching him in college and the pros, is what I'd call a "snap together" player. He's shown every tool and ability a wing player can have, in stretches. He just doesn't bring them all at the same time and consistently. He's a player for whom things can snap together and he'll go from average player to excellent player, or things will never quite come together and he'll end up having a Darius Miles type of career (probably minus the knuckle-headedness).
Right now he's producing a fair amount but inefficiently. That's a lot more promising than a player who simply isn't even producing a lot. I wouldn't pay Caron Butler prices for him, but I would value him much more than, say, Travis Outlaw. If RLEC/Outlaw/Webster/draft pick/cash for Gay/bad contract would get the deal done, I'd definitely do it. I'm not sure I'd include Rudy Fernandez. I might if I had a lot more faith in his potential...I don't watch him enough to have such belief in him, but maybe Pritchard and his scouts do, in which case I think it would be reasonable to add Fernandez or Batum.
hasoos
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2008
- Messages
- 9,418
- Likes
- 97
- Points
- 48
Oh comon man. Everybody who watches Travis knows he is the 2 to 3 bad game for 1 good game type of player. Averages mean nothing for him. Half of the games he doesn't even show up. You could give him all the extra minutes you want, but if his shot isn't falling, or he isn't mentally into the game, he isn't going to score anymore. Then go look at Gays box scores and you will see he shows up every night. He doesn't shoot 15% 2 nights in a row and then shoot 80% the next. He shoot in the mid forties most nights of the week. Consistently.
He also has something else the Blazers could use a little of: Attitude and physicality.
Portland has too many nice guys. They need to get a little nasty going.