OT Coronavirus: America in chaos, News and Updates. One million Americans dead and counting (4 Viewers)

[HailBlazers]

I'm sure every one is well versed on the differences.

So why play dumb with false equivalencies?

 

[Phatguysrule]

mRNA is a completely different class than anything mandated before it.

And far better understood at the time of mandates than any other vaccine before it.

*Edit*
Studied for literaly 40 years before any mandates...

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

 

[tester551]

Do you feel the same about the vaccines generally required by public schools?

The vaccines required by school have been and evaluated for many years. We know and understand the long-term impacts of those.
Comparing the vaccines required by schools is not the same.

Right. I mean, I looked at the blazers playoff record last year, and concluded that they won the championship.

You can have a different conclusion, but that doesn't mean mine is wrong!

barfo

This is a false comparison. The Blazers record is binary. They either won or lost. There are no other variables involved.

All the 'science' surrounding covid changes (seemingly daily). No one has all the data or fully knows the best course of action.... Until there is definitive evidence of the full impact of the vaccines (including the long-term impacts) - people should have the right to make their own decision.

The hubris of those pushing vaccine mandates is beyond concerning. It appears that those who contracted the disease have better immunity than those who get the vaccine, yet it's being pushed regardless of health history.

Receiving FDA approval is not some lofty standard either.... Approximately 1/3 of new drugs that FDA approved between 2001 and 2010 were found to have safety problems after the FDA approval (https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-drugs-had-safety-problems-after-fda-approval). Here is the key quote:

It took a median of 4.2 years after the drugs were approved for these safety concerns to come to light, the study found, and issues were more common among psychiatric drugs, biologic drugs, drugs that were granted "accelerated approval" and drugs that were approved near the regulatory deadline for approval.

Even for this mRNA vaccine, we were told that it would stay in the arm and wouldn't travel through the body. A few weeks later we get news that it does travel. Is that going to be an issue? No one knows yet...

We will not have definitive answers on what effect this virus or these vaccines will have on people for many years to come. Until then, everyone should be given the latitude to make what they believe to be the best choice for them and their family.

 

[tester551]

*Edit*
Studied for literaly 40 years before any mandates...

Yet, there has never been a vaccine successfully developed and approved before....

 

[noknobs]

I know alot of nurses (10+) in the area, that are not getting the vaccine. But libs will call them stupid and uneducated

At the moment about 13.3% of the population has had Covid and about .2% of the population has died. That means that if you get Covid in the US, there's about a 1.6% chance you'll die.

That may not seem like a big number until you compare it to how rare it is to get severe adverse reactions from actually getting vaccinated. .007% get hospitalized and .002% die.

No vaccine is 100% effective. But using the math acumen of a toddler, it seems clear that if you're not worried about getting hospitalized or dying from COVID itself, then you shouldn't be at all worried about getting hospitalized or dying from the vaccine.

About 182m people are fully vaccinated, so about 54% of the population, yet over 90% who are hospitalized at the moment are unvaccinated. Again, simple math.

The risk of 1) Getting the virus, 2) Getting hospitalized, and 3) dying are much lower in vaccinated people than in those who are unvaccinated. The latest I've seen is that those who are unvaccinated are around 10x more likely to be hospitalized and 11x more likely to die.

So to summarize: Right now there is a vaccine that is safe and readily available to you, it's free, it's recommended by the Center for Disease Control, approved by the FDA, greatly reduces the chance of infection, hospitalization and death, you're a nurse........ and your not going to take it?

This isn't complicated.

So regarding the nurses you know: hopefully you can at least understand why it's hard for those blessed with the ability of rational thought to not think they're stupid and uneducated.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The vaccines required by school have been and evaluated for many years. We know and understand the long-term impacts of those.
Comparing the vaccines required by schools is not the same.



This is a false comparison. The Blazers record is binary. They either won or lost. There are no other variables involved.

All the 'science' surrounding covid changes (seemingly daily). No one has all the data or fully knows the best course of action.... Until there is definitive evidence of the full impact of the vaccines (including the long-term impacts) - people should have the right to make their own decision.

The hubris of those pushing vaccine mandates is beyond concerning. It appears that those who contracted the disease have better immunity than those who get the vaccine, yet it's being pushed regardless of health history.

Receiving FDA approval is not some lofty standard either.... Approximately 1/3 of new drugs that FDA approved between 2001 and 2010 were found to have safety problems after the FDA approval (https://www.npr.org/sections/health...-drugs-had-safety-problems-after-fda-approval). Here is the key quote:


Even for this mRNA vaccine, we were told that it would stay in the arm and wouldn't travel through the body. A few weeks later we get news that it does travel. Is that going to be an issue? No one knows yet...

We will not have definitive answers on what effect this virus or these vaccines will have on people for many years to come. Until then, everyone should be given the latitude to make what they believe to be the best choice for them and their family.

Because there hasn't been an urgent need. We had a vaccine literal days after examining the DNA.

Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection.

And, in every vaccine available to us, side effects — including rare but serious side effects — develop within six to eight weeks of injection.

We know how everything in the vaccine reacts with the human body. We know the spike protein is far less damaging and far less numerous as a result of the vaccine than the virus.

Its not possible for the vaccine to be worse than catching covid-19. And everyone who doesn't get vaccinated will almost certainly catch and expose others to the virus.

The math needed to understand all of this is elementary.

 

[Lanny]

Good for these individuals. I completely support them for standing up for their rights.
These manipulative and coercive tactics need to stop.

No anti vaxer has the right to make me sick. If they want to stay home and not mingle with the public then they have that right. Of course, that would mean giving up their children to someone more grown up to be raised.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The vast majority are clear on the advantages of the vaccine. They are also clear on several of the unknowns.

Just because someone looks at the same data as someone else and comes to a different conclusion doesn't mean they are wrong....

nah. They are just despicable, disgusting idiot humans.

cause someone says so. So its a fact!!!!

 

[Orion Bailey]

Seems unnecessarily verbose. I'd just call them Republicans.

barfo

i personally know a very well educated, democratic nurse that wont get it.

So sick of the bashing from some of the left as if they know the black and white answer to everything and anyone who thinks differently is evil( or whatever multitude of insults you want to use that is soooo often tossed out there)

 

[Lanny]

i personally know a very well educated, democratic nurse that wont get it.

So sick of the bashing from some of the left as if they know the black and white answer to everything and anyone who thinks differently is evil( or whatever multitude of insults you want to use that is soooo often tossed out there)

Think of it this way. The unvaccinated are like unwitting suicide bombers. Willing to take me out when someone has an attached suicide vest to their bodies.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Think of it this way. The unvaccinated are like unwitting suicide bombers. Willing to take me out when someone has an attached suicide vest to their bodies.

Its more than just aBout the vax. Is about just about every opinion based ideology.
Just read the threads…the tweets.. etc…

its insufferably obnoxious.

 

[crandc]

Because they know...

Pretty picture. Source?

 

[crandc]

mRNA is a completely different class than anything mandated before it.

I asked you before, why? What do you know about mRNA and its function? You didn't answer.

 

[crandc]

Who on earth said vaccine would stay in arm and not travel through body? That would be useless. It needs to trigger immune response. Like every other vaccine.
Antivaxxers never say they oppose vaccines generally, just THIS vaccine. This vaccine being any under discussion.

 

[Hoopguru]

i personally know a very well educated, democratic nurse that wont get it.

So sick of the bashing from some of the left as if they know the black and white answer to everything and anyone who thinks differently is evil( or whatever multitude of insults you want to use that is soooo often tossed out there)

I know many union guys that wont get it and they are all dem's. I have both demes and conservatives in my fam that wont get it.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

At the moment about 13.3% of the population has had Covid and about .2% of the population has died. That means that if you get Covid in the US, there's about a 1.6% chance you'll die.

That may not seem like a big number until you compare it to how rare it is to get severe adverse reactions from actually getting vaccinated. .007% get hospitalized and .002% die.

No vaccine is 100% effective. But using the math acumen of a toddler, it seems clear that if you're not worried about getting hospitalized or dying from COVID itself, then you shouldn't be at all worried about getting hospitalized or dying from the vaccine.

About 182m people are fully vaccinated, so about 54% of the population, yet over 90% who are hospitalized at the moment are unvaccinated. Again, simple math.

The risk of 1) Getting the virus, 2) Getting hospitalized, and 3) dying are much lower in vaccinated people than in those who are unvaccinated. The latest I've seen is that those who are unvaccinated are around 10x more likely to be hospitalized and 11x more likely to die.

So to summarize: Right now there is a vaccine that is safe and readily available to you, it's free, it's recommended by the Center for Disease Control, approved by the FDA, greatly reduces the chance of infection, hospitalization and death, you're a nurse........ and your not going to take it?

This isn't complicated.

So regarding the nurses you know: hopefully you can at least understand why it's hard for those blessed with the ability of rational thought to not think they're stupid and uneducated.

You're using blanket data that dont fit most of the nurses i know. So i have better data for you.

Age 18-29

3376 deaths, 7.47 million infections (Undercounted of course because not everyone that gets infected will get tested - but lets use it for this purpose)

thats a risk factor of .004% of death. I know it doesnt fit your narrative, but "follow the science"

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Ultimately, on this forum, and everywhere else in the public sphere, we've been going at this debate for almost two years (among other divisive topics) and we are where we are. You're not going to change my opinion on mandates (im vaxxed fyi) and I'm not going to change yours. I truly believe that we are heading to a two state solution in this country, where conservatives will continue to migrate to places like Florida/Tennesse/Arizona/Idaho/SC/Texas (to a degree) and Libs will stay or migrate to the coasts.

I'm now fine with that outcome, which sucks for me, because that means i'll have to move my family out at some point from the place ive called home for 33+ years

 

[Phatguysrule]

i personally know a very well educated, democratic nurse that wont get it.

So sick of the bashing from some of the left as if they know the black and white answer to everything and anyone who thinks differently is evil( or whatever multitude of insults you want to use that is soooo often tossed out there)

She's not being logical. If she doesn't understand how this works she should probably not be a nurse. I also know a former nurse who is antivax as well. She quit because her job was mandating vaccines (long before Covid). I'm glad she quit and found a different career.

Nurses are not epidemiologists. They are not virologists. They are out of their depth in dealing with pandemics and should be listening to the advise of the professionals.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ultimately, on this forum, and everywhere else in the public sphere, we've been going at this debate for almost two years (among other divisive topics) and we are where we are. You're not going to change my opinion on mandates (im vaxxed fyi) and I'm not going to change yours. I truly believe that we are heading to a two state solution in this country, where conservatives will continue to migrate to places like Florida/Tennesse/Arizona/Idaho/SC/Texas (to a degree) and Libs will stay or migrate to the coasts.

I'm now fine with that outcome, which sucks for me, because that means i'll have to move my family out at some point from the place ive called home for 33+ years

But you don't have to move. You could just be logical... or move to Texas and have your power freeze up.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I really don't believe it's that high at all. My parents are religious and are extremely kind and caring people. They're also vaccinated.

they brought you into this world, so there’s that, for better or worse!

 

[Phatguysrule]

You're using blanket data that dont fit most of the nurses i know. So i have better data for you.

Age 18-29

3376 deaths, 7.47 million infections (Undercounted of course because not everyone that gets infected will get tested - but lets use it for this purpose)

thats a risk factor of .004% of death. I know it doesnt fit your narrative, but "follow the science"

That's twice the claimed risk factor of all ages dying from the vaccine. The rates of 18-29 year olds dying from the vaccine is far lower. And on average, every one of those 18-29 year olds who get covid-19 infects multiple other people. Thereby keeping our hospitals full and our front line workers exhausted.

 

[crandc]

How do antivaxxers explain different death and hospitalization rates in highly vaccinated states and low vaccinated states?
And if the pandemic isn't so bad, where did the nearly 700,000 Americans go?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I know many union guys that wont get it and they are all dem's. I have both demes and conservatives in my fam that wont get it.

But those damn idiotic republicans!!!!

 

[HailBlazers]

And if the pandemic isn't so bad, where did the nearly 700,000 Americans go?

Dying with a positive PCR test =/ dying from Covid.

 

[Chris Craig]

Pretty picture. Source?

Warner - Lambert a company that merged with Pfizer did pay fines but it was $2.3 billion not $4.7 billion because they were promoting their drug Gabapentin that was approved solely to treat seizures for other conditions such as a pain reliever, migraines, and for psychiatric use that were not approved by the FDA and paying doctors to peddle it for those uses.

Moderna has more than 20 vaccines in development. They have only been around since 2010 so it's not a surprise they haven't come out with a lot of fully developed vaccines yet.

Johnson and Johnson has been named in many lawsuits, but not hundreds of thousands. They have been sued by shareholders for manufacturing issues, bribery, covering up adverse effects, and off label uses.

They were sued for marketing Risperdal an antipsychotic as a treatment for dementia.

They were sued for bribing doctors in Greece, Poland, Romania, and Iraq

They were sued due to complications to vaginal mesh implants.

And of course for the talc in their baby powder that was thought to contain asbestos and to cause ovarian cancer in those who used it for long periods of time.

AstraZeneca's vaccine was briefly suspended in some European countries against the advice of the European Union's Medicine Regulators because of 6 cases of blood clots. No association between the blood clot cases and vaccination have been found.



So, some of it is true. A lot of it exaggerated.

There are a lot of shady dealings with any pharmaceutical corporation.

All of the vaccines were carefully and publicly tested in the spotlight with the FDA on their asses.

 

[donkiez]

Most nurses are basically the technician or operators of the medical world. You dont ask the operator how to fix a diesel engine and you dont ask the technician to develop a white paper. Its not their job, they really know nothing of those subjects but they are educated enough to "know the language" and appear smart to people who are not in that industry. What if my nurse was against something like kidney dialysis because of their "personal beliefs", if I needed kidney dialysis I would not want that nurse anywhere near me.

The death rate of nurses who contract covid is not the point of mandating their vaccintes for hospital staff either. Its the fact that they intimately deal with the most valunerable segment of the population and they have a duty to not be virus vectors for these people.

The obvious compromise here is that all the anti vax medical staff can all quit and form their own anti vax hospitals where the rest of us can all send the anti vax patients. Problem sovled.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Ultimately, on this forum, and everywhere else in the public sphere, we've been going at this debate for almost two years (among other divisive topics) and we are where we are. You're not going to change my opinion on mandates (im vaxxed fyi) and I'm not going to change yours. I truly believe that we are heading to a two state solution in this country, where conservatives will continue to migrate to places like Florida/Tennesse/Arizona/Idaho/SC/Texas (to a degree) and Libs will stay or migrate to the coasts.

I'm now fine with that outcome, which sucks for me, because that means i'll have to move my family out at some point from the place ive called home for 33+ years

just rememeber. Its illogical to differentiate opinions from facts!

 

[Chris Craig]

How do antivaxxers explain different death and hospitalization rates in highly vaccinated states and low vaccinated states?
And if the pandemic isn't so bad, where did the nearly 700,000 Americans go?

They don't

They conveniently omit these stats or distract (look over there) in order to avoid such a glaring hole to their "truth".

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

That's twice the claimed risk factor of all ages dying from the vaccine. The rates of 18-29 year olds dying from the vaccine is far lower. And on average, every one of those 18-29 year olds who get covid-19 infects multiple other people. Thereby keeping our hospitals full and our front line workers exhausted.

The claim was 1.6% death rate. I show a .004 death rate for 18-29 (and that's overrepresented like I explained).

So its a risk assessment that should come down to personal freedom. So then the argument will be made, that they work with others that have a higher death rate, which is true, however, just because you get vaccinated, doesn't mean you can't spread covid.

So again, here are the facts

1) They are making a personal risk assessment that they would rather not put something in their body that would potentially marginally help them (so would something like the flu vaccine, but we wont get into that argument)
2) They can infect others by not getting the vaccine, but they can just as easily infect them WITH the vaccine. So really, it only potentially helps there own PERSONAL outcome, not the outcomes of others.

Then the argument will be made that it doesn't stay in a vax person's system as long. Sure, not two weeks, but still several days. And for a healthcare worker, at most they are taking 2-3 days off in a row, so therefore, they can easily infect even by being vaxed.

But once again, this is my rationale and logic, and I think its unbiased, but I will never convince others who don't want to hear it to begin with