Dame in Milwaukee thread

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The Bucks are getting mid career Dame, it seems. I.e., slumpsville Dame.
 
Lillard is on TNT right now taking on the shorthanded Memphis Grizzlies.
 
Bucks look like a bunch of old man chuckers. They're never gonna win a championship
 
Chris Haynes was an aspiring hooper at Multnomah Bible College of all places. Made a name for himself by becoming buddy buddy with Lillard.
 
FlashWad said:
We traded him at the right time. He has been horrible for the bucks.
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The last possible right time; I think we could have received more for him in 2022. But yes I’m glad because you could see this coming the second the injuries started to pile up a bit.
 
I just don't believe this is how a guy falls off. With shooters the shot is the last thing to go. So Dame just needs to find his rhythm with this team or get shipped somewhere else. The offense the Bucks run makes no sense with their personnel. I won't be surprised to see Dame go supernova after the all star break... that is if they start running an offense with him that makes sense.
 
blazerkor said:
I just don't believe this is how a guy falls off. With shooters the shot is the last thing to go. So Dame just needs to find his rhythm with this team or get shipped somewhere else. The offense the Bucks run makes no sense with their personnel. I won't be surprised to see Dame go supernova after the all star break... that is if they start running an offense with him that makes sense.
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The why doesn't matter. He's going through a lot of stuff off the court. But the main issue is that we couldn't afford to have him go through this kind of slump in Portland.
 
blazerkor said:
I just don't believe this is how a guy falls off. With shooters the shot is the last thing to go. So Dame just needs to find his rhythm with this team or get shipped somewhere else. The offense the Bucks run makes no sense with their personnel. I won't be surprised to see Dame go supernova after the all star break... that is if they start running an offense with him that makes sense.
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Dame is not happy and missing his Kids. He’s mind is somewhere else.
 
Phatguysrule said:
They aren't using Dame right.
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For years, people said the talent surrounding Dame was the problem. I said he's not a complimentary player that you can build around, as much as I liked him. Now, he's surrounded by talent that everyone said is championship caliber, and when the Bucks struggle to integrate Dame the narrative becomes he's being misused. Don't you think they'd be using him differently if it were that easy, and doing so wasn't to the detriment of his teammates?
 
TYDame said:
Dame is not happy and missing his Kids. He’s mind is somewhere else.
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I hate to say it because i love the guy, but he should have thought about the potential of this when demanding a trade to one team… on the east coast, as far away from Portland and his family as it gets.
 
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handiman said:
For years, people said the talent surrounding Dame was the problem. I said he's not a complimentary player that you can build around, as much as I liked him. Now, he's surrounded by talent that everyone said is championship caliber, and when the Bucks struggle to integrate Dame the narrative becomes he's being misused. Don't you think they'd be using him differently if it were that easy, and doing so wasn't to the detriment of his teammates?
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They aren't using Dame in pick and rolls with Giannis. At least, they weren't under Griffin.

Dame is one of the best pick and roll players in the league.
 
Phatguysrule said:
They aren't using Dame in pick and rolls with Giannis. At least, they weren't under Griffin.

Dame is one of the best pick and roll players in the league.
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That was his reputation coming out of college, but I'm not sure he was ever above average at it as a pro.

I'm also not sure Giannis is the guy to run that with. Everyone will just play him for the roll. If he pops for the jumper, that's best case scenario for the defense every time down the court.
 
handiman said:
That was his reputation coming out of college, but I'm not sure he was ever above average at it as a pro.

I'm also not sure Giannis is the guy to run that with. Everyone will just play him for the roll. If he pops for the jumper, that's best case scenario for the defense every time down the court.
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If they play Giannis for the roll Dame has a wide open 3 that he has hit at like a 45% clip for his entire career.

Dame was incredibly effective at the pick and roll in the NBA. Nurk is a terrible finisher and doesn't have much of a midrange or 3 either. RoLo never had much offense at all.

Aldridge was dropping 50 once he got serious about it. But he didn't want to share the spotlight.

And that's the best pick and roll partners Dame has had. He scores like crazy and passes very well out of the pick and roll.

But you're right, Giannis and his lack of shooting ability isn't perfect either. But I still think that would be their best bet.

If you build a wall to stop Giannis you'll have to leave Dame or someone else open for three.
 
Phatguysrule said:
If they play Giannis for the roll Dame has a wide open 3 that he has hit at like a 45% clip for his entire career.
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That's assuming they leave Dame open, rather than have a help defender hedge on the roll. Since Dame has proven to be subpar passing out of traps, I don't see why anyone would simply leave him open on the P&R. Force him to find the open man.

Dame was incredibly effective at the pick and roll in the NBA. Nurk is a terrible finisher and doesn't have much of a midrange or 3 either. RoLo never had much offense at all.

Aldridge was dropping 50 once he got serious about it. But he didn't want to share the spotlight.
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So... Dame's success at the P&R came very early in his career? Which is sort of what I said, that that was his strength coming out of college but he hasn't done much with it since. :) Look, I loved Dame's game early on. But as he developed into the player he is today, much of what I liked fell by the wayside. He became a player that's great for his own game, but not so much those around him. Sure, we can theorize that his P&R game was there all along, just dormant because he didn't have good bigs to play with, but that doesn't carry much weight in light of Milwaukee neglecting it by choice.

And that's the best pick and roll partners Dame has had. He scores like crazy and passes very well out of the pick and roll.
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I disagree with the second part. Yes, he scores like crazy out of P&R's. No, he doesn't pass well out of it by any means. He's always looking for his own shot, usually using the pick as a screen for a jump shot.
 
handiman said:
That's assuming they leave Dame open, rather than have a help defender hedge on the roll. Since Dame has proven to be subpar passing out of traps, I don't see why anyone would simply leave him open on the P&R. Force him to find the open man.



So... Dame's success at the P&R came very early in his career? Which is sort of what I said, that that was his strength coming out of college but he hasn't done much with it since. :) Look, I loved Dame's game early on. But as he developed into the player he is today, much of what I liked fell by the wayside. He became a player that's great for his own game, but not so much those around him. Sure, we can theorize that his P&R game was there all along, just dormant because he didn't have good bigs to play with, but that doesn't carry much weight in light of Milwaukee neglecting it by choice.



I disagree with the second part. Yes, he scores like crazy out of P&R's. No, he doesn't pass well out of it by any means. He's always looking for his own shot, usually using the pick as a screen for a jump shot.
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He does look for his own shot quite a bit. But I don't think he lost the ability to make that pass.

I think Griffin was just a shitty coach. I'm not sure what Doc has been doing. Just haven't had a chance to watch
 
handiman said:
That was his reputation coming out of college, but I'm not sure he was ever above average at it as a pro.
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Dame, as a P&R-Ball-Handler:

* Dame was in the 95th Percentile in 2018-19 when 44.7% of his possessions were PnR
* in 2019-20, he was in the 95th percentile when 51.7% of his possessions were PnR
* in 2020-21, he was in the 91st percentile when 46.3% of his possessions were PnR
* last season, he was in the 94th percentile when 39.6% of his possessions were PnR

this season, he's in the 81st percentile on 43%

so yes, Dame was elite at PnR when he was in Portland and has seen a substantial drop-off in Milwaukee even though the frequency is similar

he's also had a major drop in his efficiency on isolation even though his frequency is about his norms

2019-20 - 87th percentile
2020-21 - 90th percentile
2022-23 - 91st percentile
Milwaukee - 62nd percentile

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as for Dame and his "shooting struggles" in Milwaukee....I think it's being greatly exaggerated

* his 3ptFG% IS at a career low (not counting his injured 2012-22 season) at 34.1%. But he shot 34.3% in his 3rd season and 36.1% in his 6th season. His career mark is 37.0%, so this season he's only 8% below his norm
* He's had 7 seasons when he shot a worse percentage on two's than he's shooting this season, and his mark this year is better than his career mark
* his overall FG% is only 3.4% worse than his career mark. Any sustained hot streak would correct that
* And, rather importantly, his TS% this season is actually better than his career mark and is better this season than 8 of his previous seasons. Part of that is he's leading the NBA in FT%

Dame is at his lowest usage rate since his 3rd season; no surprise then that he's at the 2nd lowest assist rate of his career (and the 2nd lowest turnover rate)

new team; new offense; new role; two different coaches; trying to develop synergy with an NBA unicorn; new city; separation and impending divorce. It's completely understandable why he may be having some adjustment issues. And why his new team is having some issues adjusting to his game


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this season, for Blazers in PnR:

* Simons is in the 61st percentile with 41% of possessions
* Scoot is in 51st percentile with 36% of possessions
* Brogdon is in the 39th percentile with 37% of possessions
* Sharpe is in 18th percentile with 31% of possessions
* Grant is in the 45th percentile (14% frequency)

last season:

* Simons was in the 82nd percentile (34% frequency)
* Hart was in the 92nd percentile (low frequency)
* Grant was in the 92nd percentile (low frequency)
* Mays was in 91st percentile (41% frequency)
* Brogdon was in the 82nd percentile in Boston which was 2nd best on the team after Smart (84th percentile)
* Watford was in 99th percentile (low frequency)

I think the massive drop-off in PnR efficiency for Simons/Brogdon/Grant and Scoot's poor number is due to a couple of things: one is that the Blazers don't have Dame's gravity on offense anymore. The other, and it is probably more primary, is that Nurkic/Eubanks were a couple of tiers better at setting screens and operating in the PnR than Ayton/Reath
 
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wizenheimer said:
Dame, as a P&R-Ball-Handler:

* Dame was in the 95th Percentile in 2018-19 when 44.7% of his possessions were PnR
* in 2019-20, he was in the 95th percentile when 51.7% of his possessions were PnR
* in 2020-21, he was in the 91st percentile when 46.3% of his possessions were PnR
* last season, he was in the 94th percentile when 39.6% of his possessions were PnR

this season, he's in the 81st percentile on 43%

so yes, Dame was elite at PnR when he was in Portland and has seen a substantial drop-off in Milwaukee even though the frequency is similar
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Did you really just try to sneak in usage rate as a measure of elite-ness? I already said he largely utilized P&R's as screens for jump shots.

That's one of your more misleading stats.
 
handiman said:
Did you really just try to sneak in usage rate as a measure of elite-ness? I already said he largely utilized P&R's as screens for jump shots.

That's one of your more misleading stats.
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I didn't try to sneak in anything, nor did I equate usage with "elite-ness", whatever that means. I mentioned usage rate because the ball is in his hands less this season, and that's why his assist rate is down. He's taking 3.3 fewer shots a game this season than last...which is no surprise

and you said:

"So... Dame's success at the P&R came very early in his career? Which is sort of what I said, that that was his strength coming out of college but he hasn't done much with it since.."

that was completely false
 
wizenheimer said:
I didn't try to sneak in anything, nor did I equate usage with "elite-ness", whatever that means. I mentioned usage rate because the ball is in his hands less this season, and that's why his assist rate is down. He's taking 3.3 fewer shots a game this season than last...which is no surprise

and you said:

"So... Dame's success at the P&R came very early in his career? Which is sort of what I said, that that was his strength coming out of college but he hasn't done much with it since.."

that was completely false
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Do you seriously not understand the difference between running the P&R a lot, and actually involving the teammate(s) while doing so?
 
handiman said:
Do you seriously not understand the difference between running the P&R a lot, and actually involving the teammate(s) while doing so?
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I understand PnR. I'm not sure you do...

here's what you said about that:

"Yes, he scores like crazy out of P&R's. No, he doesn't pass well out of it by any means. He's always looking for his own shot, usually using the pick as a screen for a jump shot."

try to support that assertion with more than your opinion and bias. At least I try to do that with my assertions

for instance:

* last year in Portland Nurkic was in the 53rd percentile in PnR Ball-handler; this season in Phx he's in the 38th percentile
* last year in Portland Eubanks was in the 71st percentile in PnR Ball-handler; this season in Phx he's in the 46th percentile

That's not a lot of evidence by any stretch. But it is more than you offered

you said "he doesn't pass well out of it"...How do you know? What gauges are you using? How does his passing out of the PnR compare to other ball-handlers? Do you have any numbers that support your claim?
 
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