Dame in Milwaukee thread

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Clutch 3&D requires elite talent.

like Bruce Bowen and Michael Cooper and Shane Battier and Tayshaun Prince?

add Horry to that quartet and count the all-star games for all 5 in a combined 68 seasons. Hint: it's less than 1. I'd think elite talent would get an all-star appearance with that many tries. At least Bowen, Cooper, Prince and Battier combined for 22 all-defensive awards.
 
None of those land on clutchest players of all time lists.
I would think that Robert Horry might be on that list but the reason he likely isn't is because he isn't a three level scorer, with an elite handle... that would just make any 3 and D guy a superstar two way player.

Anyone who is considered 3 and D is considered that because their offensive game is very limited and therefore they can only be counted on to consistently knock down set open jumpers and those are most valuable from beyond the arc.
 
All-Star weekend is a necessary break to a long ass season. Give the vets a break. Bring in the top NCAA players to play an "all-star" game against the NBA rookies.

At halftime instead of music show the best and nastiest dunks so far in the NBA season on TV, let the fans vote in real time for the best dunk. That's it, that's your dunk champion. The best dunk in an actual NBA game, no gimmicks, no cars, no people holding balls.

Do something similar for 3pt shot. Best, biggest clutch or shot from deep.

That's it, that's the all-star weekend.
 
All-Star weekend is a necessary break to a long ass season. Give the vets a break. Bring in the top NCAA players to play an "all-star" game against the NBA rookies.

At halftime instead of music show the best and nastiest dunks so far in the NBA season on TV, let the fans vote in real time for the best dunk. That's it, that's your dunk champion. The best dunk in an actual NBA game, no gimmicks, no cars, no people holding balls.

Do something similar for 3pt shot. Best, biggest clutch or shot from deep.

That's it, that's the all-star weekend.
I'm okay with the 3pt shooting contest.
 
I’ve always loved my daughter’s Lillard 2 PDX carpet shoes. She got em signed at his camp years ago.IMG_9259.jpeg
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None of those land on clutchest players of all time lists.


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one of those players is not like the others. Only one player in that group never made an all-star game; never made an all-NBA team; never made an all-NBA defensive team

it's the same player who never averaged more than 12 points, and only averaged double digit points 3 times in 16 years. For his career he averaged 7 pts; 5 rebs; 2 ast's while only shooting 42.5% FG's and 34.1% on three's

the NBA average in PER and he never hit that mark; not once in 16 years, and his average was 13.4
His career average TS% is .520. The NBA average the last 3 seasons is around .575 to .580. Stacey Augmon had a higher career mark at .524

he was never an elite player; not close. He's on that list mainly because of 3 big shots in the playoffs. Well he was in 116 playoff games, shot the ball 1562 times including 728 three's...so he was due?

I know he hit those big shots. And to his credit his efficiency increased in the playoffs; still doesn't make him elite. Or maybe it's that I have a stricter standard for 'elite'
 

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c'mon now...a lot of players have hit big shots, including Dame. Horry was just in a position to hit bigger shots on a larger stage. But it wasn't his talent that was primary in getting his team to that larger stage.

* in Houston, it was the talent of Hakeem, Mawell, Thorpe, Smith, and Drexler. (Horry averaged about 11 & 5 during Houston's 2 championships).
* And in LA it was Shaq, Kobe, Rice, Fisher (Horry averaged about 7.5 & 5 during the Lakers' threepeat and was part of a supporting group that had Rick Fox, Brian Shaw, and Ron Harper).
* and obviously, for the Spurs, it was the big-3 of Duncan, Parker and Ginobli. Horry was just one part of a supporting cast that included Bruce, Bowen, Brent Barry, Nazr Mohammed, and Oberto. He only averaged 5 & 4 when he collected his 7th ring.

Horry didn't have elite talent, just elite timing

that's not to say he didn't play important roles on those teams. But that's the point, he was just a role player, he was never the 3rd best and often not the 4th best player on those teams. Which was what I was getting at in the Dame vs Jrue debate. Granted, Jrue is a very high level role player and was clearly the 3rd best player on the Bucks title team. During the playoffs, Giannis averaged 30 -13 - 5 and Middleton averaged 24 - 8- 5, while Jrue was 17 - 6 - 9. For the Celtics, it may have been that White was the 3rd best player, and Jrue 4th best

whatshisname was arguing that Jrue had the type of talent integral to playoff success and Dame didn't. But Jrue had his first 11 seasons while swimming in the wakes of Giannis & Middleton & Tatum & Brown. He spent 7 years in New Orleans alongside AD; most of the time as the 2nd best player. Yet, in his first 11 seasons he appeared in 30 playoff games. Dame, in his first 9 seasons appeared in 61 playoff games; more than twice as many in 2 fewer seasons. (Apparently, Jrue's critical playoff talent didn't kick in until he was playing with 2 all-stars instead of 1). And we know around here that it was Dame's talent that carried Portland into the playoffs for for 8 straight seasons. When Dame was in his prime, he had CJ and Nurkic. Jrue had Giannis and Middleton; or Tatum and Brown
Giannis/Middleton without Jrue: 0 titles
Tatum/Brown without Jrue: 0 titles

Jrue is believed to be one of the best defenders in the league. Defense wins championships.
 
We heard for years from fans here how Dame was a top NBA superstar in Portland and the main reason he couldn't contend was never having a fellow allstar teammate. Well now he has an MVP level teammates and the excuses are the supporting cast isn't good enough. Bucks today have the same wins as the Pistons who had the worst record in the NBA last year.

When one of your top two players is a short poor defensive PG that can be trapped as well as on a supermax contract its just extremely difficult if not impossible to build a contending roster around that archetype of player.

Dame is certainly better as a #1 offensive option than Jrue. But in terms of who can help a team win a title? There is a reason the whole NBA was eager to trade for Jrue from us but hardly any teams wanted to trade for Dame. Way more NBA teams could make a trade for Jrue with his salary today and be a contender. It's extremely difficult if not impossible to build such a roster around Lillard.

I'm just glad Cronin was able to flip these two and get 4 nice assets.
 
Giannis/Middleton without Jrue: 0 titles
Tatum/Brown without Jrue: 0 titles

Jrue is believed to be one of the best defenders in the league. Defense wins championships.

He is a great player, but not just on defense, he had some good offensive games against Phoenix as well in the finals. (Giannis was huge in that series with a 50 pt game)

Boston has some pretty good shooters so he complements them nicely. Defense is important.....50% of the time. You need offense as well to win championships.
 
We’re wasting this much time talking about Robert Freaking Horry? Man, the All-Star break is too long. Can’t wait to get back to debating how many losses the Blazers can get to.
Saw him recently somewhere. San Antonio maybe….might need to change his name to Robert MOREy. Putting on those lbs.
 
You didn’t watch then. The amount of clutch shots and dominating quarters is staggering. Ask Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan.

pound sand...I watched them as much as you did. I just don't share your view of Horry, or Jrue
 
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