Debate Thread

[Minstrel]

Re: Debrate Thread

Look at the top Ph.D candidates. If they can, they head here. In fact, there's a US-based group of Swedish academics that help grease the skids. They take a look at who has promise and then try to get them here. Why? Because Sweden's educational system can't offer the same opportunities as does ours. Many never go back.

I think you're simply taking the few who support your nationalistic argument and acting as if they represent the entire group of "top minds." Let me guess, the ones who don't leave Sweden "didn't have enough promise" and thus weren't helped over by these US-based Swedes? It's very easy to craft rhetorical arguments like that. Cherry-pick the ones that support you, dismiss the ones that don't.

One lab vs. an entire industrial area.

Right, one world-leading academic area versus one world-leading industrial area. It was a quick and easy example to illustrate that Europe also has tremendous opportunities for smart people.

If you look at employment ingress/egress figures, you'll see that more educated Euros head to the States than do educated people from the States head to Europe.

Okay, show me.

Those figures are based on the overall population. In the Scandinavian countries, the economic distribution is tighter, which leads to higher scores. In the States, the distribution is much broader. However, it's tough to take a look at an average city, town or suburb in the States, compare it with one in Scandinavia or Western Europe and say objectively that they're wealthier or have the ability to purchase more goods and services.

Having looked at both, it's pretty easy for me to say that they look pretty identical. I've seen quite a few cities and towns in the US over my life and quite a few cities and towns in Europe (Sweden, England, France, Italy, Germany). None of it suggested to me that the US is clearly a better place to live from a material standpoint. Cities and towns varied, of course, but big cities looked quite alike as did the smaller towns.

What goods and services? Food? Booze? Entertainment (movies, going out to dinner, going to a club, plays, the opera, etc.)? A health club membership? Petrol? Similar housing? Even a ride on the Tunnelbana which is heavily subsidized isn't cheaper than our mass transit. When you throw the VAT on top of everything, the cost of living is even more expensive. The numbers bear it out.

Which numbers? You just waved away the types of measures the UN compiles as not comparable due to the "tighter" variation in economic status (which I'm not sure makes sense...the poverty in the US matters). Some of those things are cheaper, some are more expensive. Things like opera and museums are cheaper, due to being subsidized. Mass transit is generally cheaper (not always) but always a far, far better service. Most mass transit in the US is in shambles. Gasoline, food and alcohol are more expensive. Housing I've found to be cheaper for comparable accommodations. In totality, for similar types of jobs, one had similar purchasing power.

There are all kinds of rich people in Sweden; I used to race with them on the Gotland Runt. Generally, they had inherited wealth because the business climate there makes it tough to earn massive wealth without moving your personal fortune out of the country. I'm a fan of economic mobility. Creeping socialism tends to freeze that mobility with everyone remaining where they are.

Europe actually has greater rates of social mobility than the US (like moving from working class to middle class and that sort of thing) according to all that I've read. I think you're wrong about what "freezes" mobility. Capitalism is the machine that creates static classes, in my opinion. If you have money, capitalism is a great engine for making more money. If you don't have money, capitalism makes it extremely hard to get started. Capitalism basically exacerbates your situation...which is great if you're in a strong economic situation, but pretty bad if not.

I prefer to look at those who have done better than I have with admiration rather than figuring out how I can bring them down to my level.

I prefer to evaluate reality objectively rather than try emotional appeals about class warfare. Everyone who succeeds did it as a part of society and could not have accomplished a penny of it on their own, with no society at all. It's not a matter of bringing anyone down or having either admiration or disdain. It's a matter of paying into a society that one has benefited from. Hey, in capitalism, you don't get something for nothing. No reason not to put a price tag on opportunity, too, and that's what taxation is. Fair price for a valuable good.