Politics Democrats vent but can't stop Trump from leaving Paris climate agreement

[lawai'a]

not at our electricity rates. expired tax credits and no more by back here. rates locked in at sub utility rates that will still pay off the systems before 20 year life of batteries. that's if never have a rate increase over next 20 years LOL. generators on fossil fuel provide most of the power here.

The taxpayers and the utility customers are providing you with a huge subsidy.

Without those subsidies, your payoff might exceed the life of the batteries and panels.

 

[Denny Crane]

Here's one CNN talking head who's about to lose his gig. Even though he's a progressive working for a progressive WWW site.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/paris-can-waitit-was-a-bad-deal

 

[Denny Crane]

http://theweek.com/articles/444064/does-solar-energy-have-battery-problem

The problem is that a home's demand for electricity does not necessarily occur at the same time that the sun is out. Homes, of course, need power at night and on cloudy days. Solar systems feed excess power back into the electric grid, which allows homes to draw from the grid when the sun isn't shining, but that still entails a reliance on fossil fuels. (One way to mitigate that would be for governments to build significantly more nuclear power stations, but they have been increasingly reluctant to do so in the wake of the nuclear accident in Fukushima.)

The ideal solution is a big battery that can store at least a day's worth of electricity, if not more for the winter months in colder climates. Such batteries already exist. For example, Tesla uses 60 kWh and 85 kWh batteries in its cars, enough for up to 300 miles of driving, and two to three days of power for an average U.S. household.

The trouble is that each kW of storage carries a whopping price tag of $600 for consumers. Adding a 60 kWh battery to a household solar system would tack on $36,000 to the total cost, lifting the price of 20 years of solar power to at least $47,000. That's way too much — especially considering that the battery could need to be replaced long before a solar panel's 20-year lifespan is up.

 

[MarAzul]

without knowing your utility company's programs I can only suggest a hybrid system, shop on the grid utilizing 240-720 v0lts whatever your planer/shop requires maybe even 3-phase, and small solar, for home. the new tesla batteries are extremely efficient. our home system which includes all electrical appliances including central air conditioning. our system which covers only 1/2 of one side of our roof generates over 5kws. the batteries are for storage during dark and for times when demand out strips production. with tax credits and utility byback of excess power payoff of $28,000 system /5 years

Cool, talking math!

28k well that is just a bit more time than I said, actuarial life pulse 9. But the buy back? That means on the grid. They now charge a grid connection fee each month of $50. Thats fifty even if you don't use any power or it eats all the buy back. Need to be off the grid or it is silly.

 

[MarAzul]

roof generates over 5kws

Winter month are awful dark here on the South Coast. My wifes solar yard lights don't work until spring, about May.

 

[lawai'a]

Cool, talking math!

28k well that is just a bit more time than I said, actuarial life pulse 9. But the buy back? That means on the grid. They now charge a grid connection fee each month of $50. Thats fifty even if you don't use any power or it eats all the buy back. Need to be off the grid or it is silly.

I believe it would be difficult at your latitude from an efficiency stand point. here at about 19 degrees we probably produce more with less, plus kona only gets about 7 inches of rain/year and little cloud cover. big difference sorry. I know of two large cabinet shops in the area that are hybrid systems. I am sure the math worked out in their favor.

 

[lawai'a]

Winter month are awful dark here on the South Coast. My wifes solar yard lights don't work until spring, about May.

right our daylight hours vary little by season thus no daylight savings here.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

When people in Vegas and Phoenix start getting off the grid you guys can think about it. Good old Warren Buffet is trying to stop that though.

 

[lawai'a]

southpoint has a large wind farm that is capable of harnessing the trade winds to produce enough electricity for about 60,000 homes. problem currently is the age and capacity of the grid to carry that generation. we have geothermal on the hilo side developing too.

 

[MarAzul]

http://theweek.com/articles/444064/does-solar-energy-have-battery-problem

The problem is that a home's demand for electricity does not necessarily occur at the same time that the sun is out. Homes, of course, need power at night and on cloudy days. Solar systems feed excess power back into the electric grid, which allows homes to draw from the grid when the sun isn't shining, but that still entails a reliance on fossil fuels. (One way to mitigate that would be for governments to build significantly more nuclear power stations, but they have been increasingly reluctant to do so in the wake of the nuclear accident in Fukushima.)

The ideal solution is a big battery that can store at least a day's worth of electricity, if not more for the winter months in colder climates. Such batteries already exist. For example, Tesla uses 60 kWh and 85 kWh batteries in its cars, enough for up to 300 miles of driving, and two to three days of power for an average U.S. household.

The trouble is that each kW of storage carries a whopping price tag of $600 for consumers. Adding a 60 kWh battery to a household solar system would tack on $36,000 to the total cost, lifting the price of 20 years of solar power to at least $47,000. That's way too much — especially considering that the battery could need to be replaced long before a solar panel's 20-year lifespan is up.

Wow! those batteries are way too expensive. I am using Trojans 6V golf cart batteries in the boat. Have about 19Kwh installed, a bit more than a days power. But nowhere near $600 a kwh.
I question 20 year life on the battery too. That three time the life of Trojan. Not proven yet.

 

[lawai'a]

Wow! those batteries are way too expensive. I am using Trojans 6V golf cart batteries in the boat. Have about 19Kwh installed, a bit more than a days power. But nowhere near $600 a kwh.
I question 20 year life on the battery too. That three time the life of Trojan. Not proven yet.

0ur complete system utilizes only two of the teslas

 

[lawai'a]

too big and heavy for the boat. they hang on one of the walls of my garage and take up the equivalent space of 4 upright frezers

 

[MarAzul]

I believe it would be difficult at your latitude from an efficiency stand point. here at about 19 degrees we probably produce more with less, plus kona only gets about 7 inches of rain/year and little cloud cover. big difference sorry. I know of two large cabinet shops in the area that are hybrid systems. I am sure the math worked out in their favor.

Yes big differnce where you are. Hell, you guys ought to be Genning power off thermal energy, no worry about fuel or sun light. Just replace the big Diesel generators plants with geo steam generation.

 

[Shaboid]

http://theweek.com/articles/444064/does-solar-energy-have-battery-problem

The problem is that a home's demand for electricity does not necessarily occur at the same time that the sun is out. Homes, of course, need power at night and on cloudy days. Solar systems feed excess power back into the electric grid, which allows homes to draw from the grid when the sun isn't shining, but that still entails a reliance on fossil fuels. (One way to mitigate that would be for governments to build significantly more nuclear power stations, but they have been increasingly reluctant to do so in the wake of the nuclear accident in Fukushima.)

The ideal solution is a big battery that can store at least a day's worth of electricity, if not more for the winter months in colder climates. Such batteries already exist. For example, Tesla uses 60 kWh and 85 kWh batteries in its cars, enough for up to 300 miles of driving, and two to three days of power for an average U.S. household.

The trouble is that each kW of storage carries a whopping price tag of $600 for consumers. Adding a 60 kWh battery to a household solar system would tack on $36,000 to the total cost, lifting the price of 20 years of solar power to at least $47,000. That's way too much — especially considering that the battery could need to be replaced long before a solar panel's 20-year lifespan is up.

It might be worth mentioning that you aren't including the value it adds on resale in your ROI. Idk.

 

[MarAzul]

too big and heavy for the boat. they hang on one of the walls of my garage and take up the equivalent space of 4 upright frezers

Yeah, I would need to start from scratch, redesign to use the batteries as ballast in the keel and that sound like a mess right off. The lead/acid bank is in the boat low, about 1200 pounds so
it is ballast. No I don't think they will do, would end up with some sort of compromise for no good reason.

 

[Stevenson]

That's all I see against Trump - ad hominem attacks.

I made none, just a fair observation.

Ribbit.

 

[riverman]

Then don't argue that it's cost effective. It's not.

for you...from your figures, I'd guess not...for me...very affordable and well worth it...I'm not heating a swimming pool or running an auto body shop though...your electric needs are probably way more than mine....I don't need an air conditioner for one.

 

[riverman]

I would call Hydrogen a green energy fuel. You could grow spinach with your emissions. Perhaps solar with become useful and non intrusive. But the Paris agreement that was never ratified
by the Senate does nothing to make any of this happen.

awareness is going a long way towards making things happen with or without the Senate...recycling....prime example..until it became something talked about nobody cared....littering....until it hit the pocketbook, nobody cared. I think there's a lot of exciting developments in agriculture and land management..verticle farming has amazing potential

 

[lawai'a]

aquaponics. solar running pumps

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

One of you Twitter heads tweet a question to Neil deGrasse Tyson and ask him his plan.

 

[Denny Crane]

It might be worth mentioning that you aren't including the value it adds on resale in your ROI. Idk.

The realtors I know say it doesn't add anything to the resale, or it's negligible. They say that unless it's entirely paid off, it really messes up many transactions.

 

[Denny Crane]

Ribbit.

The sky is falling.

 

[riverman]

a link to home power magazine...great source for figuring out how you want to approach it
https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/so-you-want-go-grid?v=print

 

[riverman]

If I wanted to sell my place I'd forget about investing in solar power for that property.....realators I know would say build another bathroom and the price goes up. Especially in an urban area

 

[Shaboid]

The realtors I know say it doesn't add anything to the resale, or it's negligible. They say that unless it's entirely paid off, it really messes up many transactions.

As with any fixture attached to a home that is being financed. It's their job to figure it out, if they are talking you out of something because it might make their job a bit harder you might wanna find a new agent.

 

[MarAzul]

A view of rising seas from the MarAzul
I use the follow current charts which I have modified to navigation charts so I may reference my boat's position relative to the currents and the projected course relative to the currents at any given time.

These ocean current are generated partially from the earth turning daily on it's axis, the effects of which are known as the Coriolis effect. The other major power source of this world wide current flow is the introduction of the cold water into the oceans from Rivers and streams, often very cold water from glacier melt. This cold water displaces the warmer sea water adding to the flow to the ocean currents, especially the Kuro Siwo current in the North Pacific and the Gulf Stream in the North Atlantic.

How long these currents will continue to be powered is no-doubt a function of how long with the Glaciers feed the cold water into the ocieans. Since we know, Glaciers are predicted to be gone, especial those that exist between the 30 latitudes North and South, before the end of this Century. Perhaps closer to 40 - 50 years. Farming in these areas, once watered by glacier melt will really become a challenge. But without the water injection into the Sea, the sea level rise reaches it's maximum, and these major Ocean current probably cease to flow as we know them to through out human history.

Without these current, you can suspect the land warmed by the currents, Canada, Northern United States, and Northern Europe become one hell of a lot colder. Probably triggering a new Ice age in the Northern Hemisphere. At that point the sea levels begin to slowly recede for several thousand years until it drops some 190 feet from todays level as the water is transfered once again to a Glacier Ice Pack.

I do hope our grand children can learn to deal with the events. I seriously doubt they will find one among them that can devise a plan to stop the cycle. No doubt something will, but I wouldn't bet on it being man made. I expect the first thing that we will be forced to deal with beyond a little flooding in Miami and New York, is lack of water for farming in the most populated areas on earth. It should be anticipated now! But it isn't!

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

A view of rising seas from the MarAzul
I use the follow current charts which I have modified to navigation charts so I may reference my boat's position relative to the currents and the project course relative to the currents at any given time.

These ocean current are generated partially from the earth turning daily on it's axis, the effects of which are known as the Coriolis effect. The other major power source of this world wide current flow is the introduction of the cold water into the oceans from Rivers and streams, often very cold water from glacier melt. This cold water displaces the warmer sea water adding to the flow to the ocean currents, especially the Kuro Siwo current in the North Pacific and the Gulf Stream in the North Atlantic.

How long these currents will continue to be powered is no-doubt a function of how long with the Glaciers feed the cold water into the ocieans. Since we know, Glaciers are predicted to be gone, especial those that exist between the 30 latitudes North and South, before the end of this Century, perhaps closer to 40 - 50 years. Farming in these area watered by glacier melt will really become a challenge. But without the water injection into the Sea, the sea level rise reaches it's maximum, and these major Ocean current probably cease to flow as we know them to through out human history.

Without these current, you can suspect the land warmed by the currents, Canada, Northern United States, and Northern Europe become one hell of a lot colder. Probably triggering a new Ice age in the Northern Hemisphere. At that point the sea levels begin to slowly recede for several thousand years until it drops some 190 feet from todays level as the water is transfered once again to a Glacier Ice Pack.

I do hope our grand children can learn to deal with the events. I seriously doubt they will find one among them that can devise a plan to stop the cycle. No doubt something will, but I wouldn't bet on it being man made. I expect the first thing that we will be forced to deal with beyond a little flooding in Miami and New York, is lack of water for farming in the most populated areas on earth. It should be anticipated now! But it isn't!

You see that chart barfo linked a while back that showed Boston under 100 or 1000 feet of ice?

 

[Shaboid]

At least Mt. Tabor is still around so we can fight each other.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

View attachment 14640

At least Mt. Tabor is still around so we can fight each other.

I live pretty high up on the south end of the valley. You can get MarAzul to float any wuss that wants a beating up to see me. Vegas is already around 2000 feet above sea level so you Portland fools will probably be dead before the water gets to me............

HEY, just realized another benefit of voting for Trump bitches!!!!!

 

[MarAzul]

You see that chart barfo linked a while back that showed Boston under 100 or 1000 feet of ice?

I think you can bet on it. Don't bet against it. But it will take more time than we all have stacked together.

View attachment 14640

At least Mt. Tabor is still around so we can fight each other.

I hear the sea is rising at 2 MM a year, if the Glaciers are indeed gone in the next 50 years, then I don't think Portlanders will ever see the difference.
However, Some Mountains raising hell and plugging up the Columbia River might make your picture the new reality.