Politics Dems: If It Boiled Down To These Two, Who Would You Choose?

[Chris Craig]

Can anyone help me understand why the other front-runner is being consistently left out of this conversation? Shouldn't a less angry, less extreme, more "political" version of Bernie be a much more electable candidate than "Angry Bernie" and "Sleepy/Creepy Joe"?

Warren? She should. But, It looks like as things stand it will be between Biden and Sanders. Warren kicks ass in the debates, I like her, in fact I would choose her over either of them. But, she isn't getting delegates. Can't win without delegates...can't be a front runner either

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Warren? She should. But, It looks like as things stand it will be between Biden and Sanders. Warren kicks ass in the debates, I like her, in fact I would choose her over either of them. But, she isn't getting delegates. Can't win without delegates...can't be a front runner either

I guess my question is "why" isn't she getting delegates. How is it that the democrat-registered electorate consistently ignores her? She polls right up there with Bernie and Joe, but always falls just short of it mattering. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[H.C.]

I am not a Christian but my understanding is to be forgiven one must admit fault. Not use a sharpie to alter a map.

And while it is true good presidents can be flawed it doesn't follow that the most flawed is therefore the best president.

While I'm sure you meant this in jest. At least I find it funny.
Your understanding of forgiveness in God's eyes is incomplete.

 

[Minstrel]

I guess my question is "why" isn't she getting delegates. How is it that the democrat-registered electorate consistently ignores her? She polls right up there with Bernie and Joe, but always falls just short of it mattering. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I think she's getting caught in between the two poles...she's not quite liberal enough for the liberal left, because Sanders exists to her left, and she's not moderate enough for the Democrats who believe the party needs to court the middle, because Biden exists to her right, so she doesn't have a natural constituency. She may get a bounce from Buttigieg dropping out, as they were both appealing to white voters with a college degree.

Warren has been my pick since Kamala Harris left the race, but it seems she is, in sports parlance, a 'tweener and therefore not very many people's first choice.

 

[Chris Craig]

I guess my question is "why" isn't she getting delegates. How is it that the democrat-registered electorate consistently ignores her? She polls right up there with Bernie and Joe, but always falls just short of it mattering. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I think it is because Bernie has a bigger base. He has that far left lane covered. Warren is vying for votes with him and losing. I could see her drawing more moderate voters over Bernie. Moderate voters have Biden, Klobuchar, and had Buttigieg before he dropped out so that lane is full too. Warren is caught between a rock and a hard place.

South Carolina was a good injection of energy for Biden. It saved him from all but dropping out. Super Tuesday could still go against him. We could see Warren and Bernie win most of the states and Biden fall back and out. With Mayor Pete out, his voters could switch to Warren. who knows.

As of right now though Biden and Bernie are the front runners. It was always going to be a moderate camp versus far left camp for the nomination. We are seeing Biden and Sanders represent those two camps. They have won out so far. Things can change still.

As an aside Klobuchar is waiting till Tuesday's results and after she wins her state before deciding on dropping out.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I hear you, but . . .

Presidential elections are decided in the middle, not the edges. I don't see the middle breaking for a socialist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union.

If they could turn a genuine war hero like John Kerry into a draft dodger, if we could turn a nice guy like Mitt Romney into a money-grubbing elitist, imagine what they will do to Bernie.

 

[Chris Craig]

I hear you, but . . .

Presidential elections are decided in the middle, not the edges. I don't see the middle breaking for a socialist who honeymooned in the Soviet Union.

If they could turn a genuine war hero like John Kerry into a draft dodger, if we could turn a nice guy like Mitt Romney into a money-grubbing elitist, imagine what they will do to Bernie.

The thing I like about Bernie is he doesn't give a damn what his opponents say. They can attack him all they want.


Too, it will be a vote against Trump. Every Dem will vote for whoever wins the nomination.

 

[Minstrel]

The data is pretty mixed on whether you win national elections by appealing to the middle or by energizing your base. It certainly used to be true that there was a significant amount of voters who were persuadable, but that's become less and less true over the years. The electorate has become so partisan, it's more akin to 48% of the country being Blazers fans and 48% of the country being Lakers fans with 4% of the country being...Suns fans? You're never going to convince Lakers fans to support the Blazers or Blazers fans to support the Lakers; if you need to win a--uh--fan brawl (analogy is stretching to its breaking point here), you're much better off getting as close to 100% of your fan base to it than trying to convince a few Suns fans to join your cause.

This is especially true for Democrats, because their base contains constituencies that, for various reasons, are less likely to turn out to vote. A candidate who can actually motivate more Democrats to vote is probably going to do better than a candidate who can't do that but appeals more to the shrinking group of persuadable voters.

 

[Hoopguru]

Biden. I think Sanders is a bit of a clown. I wish Joe was younger, but oh well. Just stay alive and I’m fine. I would like Trump to kick the bucket and would vote for anyone but him. As in, kick the bucket. Die.

Whether or not you're passionate about your position--or even whether or not you're right--doesn't change the value of properly understanding the perspective of those who stand in opposition. In fact, I would submit that it's nearly impossible to have productive reasonable discussion with those with whom you disagree without being able to understand and even effectively articulate their side of the debate.

Agree in that people are so polarized they wont even agree to compromise at all for the sake of getting something done. Its totally take no prisoners and in your face politics especially the radical left and right.
We need to consider changing the monetary incentive, career for life, owned by lobbyist reasons of politics, then maybe those in congress would consider more give and take and a spirit of getting things done for the correct reasons and motivations.

 

[Chris Craig]

Klobuchar has ended her campaign

 

[ABM]

Whether or not you're passionate about your position--or even whether or not you're right--doesn't change the value of properly understanding the perspective of those who stand in opposition. In fact, I would submit that it's nearly impossible to have productive reasonable discussion with those with whom you disagree without being able to understand and even effectively articulate their side of the debate.

Well, considering I've personally been part of three separate abortions in my life, and now stand on the other side, I think I'm entitled to my opinions on the matter, as well.

Look, I'm not in here attempting to change any of your opinions....on anything. I've never been about that. Most all of this stems from me stating I support Trump, and will vote for him again; I'm then asked by too-many-to-count to back up my stance; I then state in various threads that ONE of the reasons is Trump's views on right-to-life, his SCOTUS appointments (one more yet to come), his stances on immigration, health care, national security, counter-terrorism, the economy, etc. It's all out there, just not in one tidy, neat place.

I mean, geez, I realize I'm very much in the minority here. So what? Nonetheless, I'm always willing to state my opinions and even back them up from time to time.

 

[barfo]

I think she's getting caught in between the two poles...she's not quite liberal enough for the liberal left, because Sanders exists to her left, and she's not moderate enough for the Democrats who believe the party needs to court the middle, because Biden exists to her right, so she doesn't have a natural constituency. She may get a bounce from Buttigieg dropping out, as they were both appealing to white voters with a college degree.

Warren has been my pick since Kamala Harris left the race, but it seems she is, in sports parlance, a 'tweener and therefore not very many people's first choice.

I think she will pick up some Pete voters. And maybe even the Amy voter.

Tweener is probably the right answer, but additionally I think, while mostly she's very good at politics, she's made a couple of huge blunders. Saying in effect 'whatever Bernie says about healthcare is what I think' is #1 on that list. #2 would be not saying 'you want to know how to pay for M4A? You should ask Bernie, not me, he wrote the damn bill'.

barfo

 

[barfo]

As an aside Klobuchar is waiting till Tuesday's results and after she wins her state before deciding on dropping out.

I thought she dropped out earlier today.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Well, considering I've personally been part of three separate abortions in my life

This is exactly why we need legal abortions. Those back-alley abortions like your mom tried too often fail.

barfo

 

[ABM]

This is exactly why we need legal abortions. Those back-alley abortions like your mom tried too often fail.

barfo

Nice

 

[Hoopguru]

I think she will pick up some Pete voters. And maybe even the Amy voter.

Tweener is probably the right answer, but additionally I think, while mostly she's very good at politics, she's made a couple of huge blunders. Saying in effect 'whatever Bernie says about healthcare is what I think' is #1 on that list. #2 would be not saying 'you want to know how to pay for M4A? You should ask Bernie, not me, he wrote the damn bill'.

barfo

bingo...she would be leading now if she would just attempt to reach out to mods, blue dogs, independents & on the fence republicans.
Her promoting taking away private insurance turns many off. Going to be Bernard's down fall to if he doesn't let up some. Just my opinion

 

[crandc]

This is exactly why we need legal abortions. Those back-alley abortions like your mom tried too often fail.

barfo

When I was 15 I had a pregnancy scare. Not that it's anyone's fucking business but I had not consented, aside from being under age. Abortion was illegal and I had only the vaguest notion what it was.

I remember being pissed off that my parents had no guns and no drugs stronger than aspirin. Because how the hell could I kill myself?
I read in a novel a woman threatening to commit suicide by swallowing her jade earrings. I had a pair of jade earrings, I didn't even get an upset stomach.
There was not the slightest scintilla of doubt in my mind I'd rather be dead than pregnant.

I didn't know at that time that there were doctors who did discreet abortions, especially for nice college bound middle class white girls and while my mother would have blown a gasket she was resourceful enough to have found me a doctor. But I would never never never tell her and in fact she went to her grave not knowing.

Turns out I was just late.

Morally I see forced sex and forced pregnancy as the same, and in fact many rapists like Trump are also vehemently anti-choice. Whether a man considers me a garbage can or an incubator (or both) makes no real difference.

Whenever some fuckhead man starts pontificating about how totally awesome it is to force their will on women's bodies I KNOW there is a terrified 15 year old somewhere ready to die rather than be pregnant.

And why I can agree to disagree on some issues but not that. I can't forgive because they know exactly what they are doing.

 

[ABM]

When I was 15 I had a pregnancy scare. Not that it's anyone's fucking business but I had not consented, aside from being under age. Abortion was illegal and I had only the vaguest notion what it was.

I remember being pissed off that my parents had no guns and no drugs stronger than aspirin. Because how the hell could I kill myself?
I read in a novel a woman threatening to commit suicide by swallowing her jade earrings. I had a pair of jade earrings, I didn't even get an upset stomach.
There was not the slightest scintilla of doubt in my mind I'd rather be dead than pregnant.

I didn't know at that time that there were doctors who did discreet abortions, especially for nice college bound middle class white girls and while my mother would have blown a gasket she was resourceful enough to have found me a doctor. But I would never never never tell her and in fact she went to her grave not knowing.

Turns out I was just late.

Morally I see forced sex and forced pregnancy as the same, and in fact many rapists like Trump are also vehemently anti-choice. Whether a man considers me a garbage can or an incubator (or both) makes no real difference.

Whenever some fuckhead man starts pontificating about how totally awesome it is to force their will on women's bodies I KNOW there is a terrified 15 year old somewhere ready to die rather than be pregnant.

And why I can agree to disagree on some issues but not that. I can't forgive because they know exactly what they are doing.

Well, you certainly have every right to feel the way you do...and I'm sorry for that. I really am.

In my circumstances, they were entirely consensual. All I can say is, I obviously had some very strong swimmers. Nonetheless, I gave each of the girls/women the decision to do what they felt best...and that (in each case) I would support their decision and be responsible....even including marriage if that's what they wanted to do. Well, each of them chose the abortion route. I was their for each of the operations/procedures and after the fact, making sure they were gonna be OK.

Was I the responsible party? Absolutely. Could I have taken an irresponsible approach? Sure. Do I have views on my situation(s) today? Yeah. I should have never gotten myself into those situations in the first place. Is it possible to educate others - particularly, teens on the matter? I'm hopeful, yes.

 

[Chris Craig]

I thought she dropped out earlier today.

barfo

She did. I didn't see it till right after I posted. I was at work

 

[yankeesince59]

This is exactly why we need legal abortions. Those back-alley abortions like your mom tried too often fail.

barfo

Oh, you're going to hell for that one !

 

[yankeesince59]

FWIW, I've never felt men should have a vote/decide what a woman does with her own body.

 

[barfo]

Oh, you're going to hell for that one !

That's exactly what I was thinking when debating whether to hit 'post reply'.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

In my circumstances, they were entirely consensual. All I can say is, I obviously had some very strong swimmers. Nonetheless, I gave each of the girls/women the decision to do what they felt best...and that (in each case) I would support their decision and be responsible....even including marriage if that's what they wanted to do. Well, each of them chose the abortion route. I was their for each of the operations/procedures and after the fact, making sure they were gonna be OK.

Was I the responsible party? Absolutely. Could I have taken an irresponsible approach? Sure. Do I have views on my situation(s) today? Yeah. I should have never gotten myself into those situations in the first place. Is it possible to educate others - particularly, teens on the matter? I'm hopeful, yes.

None of this is actually unreasonable (depending on what you mean by "education" of course). IMO, it's perfectly fine to be against abortion personally--to personally feel abortion is the wrong approach. The problem is when you try to enforce that choice on other people, women, especially in the form of a law.

 

[ABM]

None of this is actually unreasonable (depending on what you mean by "education" of course). IMO, it's perfectly fine to be against abortion personally--to personally feel abortion is the wrong approach. The problem is when you try to enforce that choice on other people, women, especially in the form of a law.

OK, then, yeah, become a Libertarian.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Stevenson]

I think she will pick up some Pete voters. And maybe even the Amy voter.

Tweener is probably the right answer, but additionally I think, while mostly she's very good at politics, she's made a couple of huge blunders. Saying in effect 'whatever Bernie says about healthcare is what I think' is #1 on that list. #2 would be not saying 'you want to know how to pay for M4A? You should ask Bernie, not me, he wrote the damn bill'.

barfo

In addition, she took that stupid blood test, and then later doubled down on Medicare for all when she all but had escape velocity in the fall. She's a good politician - articulate, smart, likable, passionate - but you're right Barfo, she blunders too often strategically.

Or, as we say in sports, too many unforced errors.

 

[Lanny]

There are plenty.....and I mean PLENTY of women who are passionate right-to-life fighters.

We're friends with Victoria...

You could be right. 15 Million would be plenty. However 135 Million would be even more.
Polls show women favor the right to choose in overwhelming numbers.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Mediocre Man]

The best chance of somehow beating Trump is Biden. If the dems were smart, they'd pick a moderate and start to move more and more left. Don't start so far left.

 

[crandc]

Yes there are women who think our function in life is having babies. Period. Nothing more. But this being 2020 and not 1620 that's a dwindling number.

For the record I did not read ABM or Maris. Neither my 15 year old self nor my 65 year old self needs mansplaining what a teen girl is supposed to feel.