Did KP miss the boat?

[hasoos]

"Highest 4 to 5 free agents?" I think this whole blurb is all kinds of wrong, but I'm curious about your counting methods. Turkoglu, Millsap...who are the remaining 2-3 free agents that Portland had ahead of Andre Miller?

They talked to both Kidd and tried to work a deal with NY for a sign and trade with David Lee. That is in addition to Hedo and Milsap. That makes 4. I am pretty sure they talked to more people than that. That is only what we heard about. So that is 4 to 5. What's the mystery?

 

[Tince]

Ok good, I thought I was suffering from heat stroke!

Either that, or OdenIsGod got a hold of your password.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

Won't matter in 4-5 years.

why?

because we'll be looking for a PG again?

 

[Minstrel]

They talked to both Kidd and tried to work a deal with NY for a sign and trade with David Lee. That is in addition to Hedo and Milsap. That makes 4. I am pretty sure they talked to more people than that. That is only what we heard about. So that is 4 to 5. What's the mystery?

Ah. I thought you were more sensible than using every rumour/report about "who they talked to" to imagine up Pritchard's list.

Gotcha now. They also spoke to Ariza's agent and Odom's agent, according to certain reports. omg, that pushes Miller down to 6-7. And when you consider that they may have talked to all sort of people not reported, Miller probably isn't top-ten. Disaster.

 

[hasoos]

Ah. I thought you were more sensible than using every rumour/report about "who they talked to" to imagine up Pritchard's list.

Gotcha now. They also spoke to Ariza's agent and Odom's agent, according to certain reports. omg, that pushes Miller down to 6-7. And when you consider that they may have talked to all sort of people not reported, Miller probably isn't top-ten. Disaster.

I am hoping that if nothing else, that Portland became educated in how to court a free agent. Sometimes you have to learn from mistakes. Hopefully, they are somebody else's mistakes, but that doesn't always work out.

Let's face it. This was KP's first attempt at landing a "big fish". Hopefully he learned from losing it.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Let me restate it, since people seem to be confused:

The Hornets moved a short contract (although according to Storyteller, he has an option year so is not an expiring contract) for Okafor, who has averaged 10+ points and 10+ rebounds a game each of his five NBA seasons (although he's 26, and will be 27 in September... not 25).
If the Thunder were able to get so much for a short contract, did Portland mess up by getting nothing for a seemingly FAR superior contract in the RLEC?

I'm still confused.

Besides which, Chandler is actually the better player, or at least, has done more.

I'm also confused why the Hornets, who traded Chandler for chump change because they were broke, suddenly trade him for a much longer contract. Did Shinn win the lottery?

 

[Tyler_Hansbrough]

You can't really compare RLEC to Chandler. That is not fair.

 

[Minstrel]

I am hoping that if nothing else, that Portland became educated in how to court a free agent.

Have you considered running seminars teaching these rube general managers from podunk towns a little of your big city sophistication?

Let's face it. This was KP's first attempt at landing a "big fish". Hopefully he learned from losing it.

Like when San Antonio tried to hook Przybilla and failed. They were inexperienced and small-time then. I think they learned from that, allowing them to land McDyess this year. After all, the only reason free agents choose not to sign with a team is GM failure.

I am amused that his "failure to land this big fish" resulted in his signing a better player for a much, much better contract. With failure like that, he may just fail into a championship.

 

[hasoos]

Have you considered running seminars teaching these rube general managers from podunk towns a little of your big city sophistication?



Like when San Antonio tried to hook Przybilla and failed. They were inexperienced and small-time then. I think they learned from that, allowing them to land McDyess this year. After all, the only reason free agents choose not to sign with a team is GM failure.

I am amused that his "failure to land this big fish" resulted in his signing a better player for a much, much better contract. With failure like that, he may just fail into a championship.

Andre Miller is not a better player than Hedo Turkoglu, especially at this stage of their career. I could care less about the contract if it brings a ring. People bitched about Rashard Lewis contract but last year he probably earned every penny when they made the finals and he made shot to get them there.

I can tell you that from what I saw on the films of Hedo coming into town they could definitly use a dose of professionality. I can't speak of the Pryzbilla recruitment in San Antonio, because I have no perspective. I didn't see any film of his visit there, and I don't know if team leadership met with him to try and get him to come over. I can also say that when Orlando tried to lure Tim Duncan away from San Antonio, they made the mistake of going over the top. There is a fine medium. You want it to be professional, you want your team leaders to meet with them and talk with them about the possibilities and let them know they are wanted there. You want your GM to show up not still tucking in his shirt and looking like he had just got out of the bar. You shouldn't rush anything. If they are not willing to take the time to listen to your offer, and have a nice relaxed visit, it's not worth your time to pursue them either. Professional is the key. Not rushed.

Portlands visit was rushed, and unprofessional. No team leaders were in place.

Lastly, Joel Pryzbilla was never a big fish. You don't go ra ra ra over run of the mill free agents. They are lucky to get the contract they get.

 

[BrianFromWA]

We could have traded Outlaw and Frye for Devin Harris. Plus we could have traded RLEC for Emeka Okafor. And probably thrown in Przybilla and gotten Gerald Wallace. And I am fairly sure, though I have no evidence for this, that Webster and Bayless could have been traded for Millsap at the deadline. Utah didn't need two power forwards, they needed some scoring prospects for the future.

PG: Devin Harris / Steve Blake
SG: Brandon Roy / Rudy Fernandez
SF: Gerald Wallace / Nicolas Batum
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Paul Millsap
C: Greg Oden / Emeka Okafor

So, sure...Pritchard looks pretty good if you compare Portland's roster to what he inherited. But he looks pretty fucking incompetent to that roster that he could have acquired.

Only one of those was reported by a half-dozen news sources. And we would've had to throw in Jack, as well.

"So sure, KP looks pretty good when you compare the roster he inherited. I don't count LMA and Roy as "his", because it was just rumors that he was the one who orchestrated those trades. I mean, how do you know? Nash was the GM. He should get the credit.
Jack/Sergio/Dickau
Roy/Jones
Udoka/Webster/Outlaw
Z-bo/LMA
Joel/Magloire
#1 pick in 2007

Now:

Miller/Blake/Bayless
Roy/Rudy
Batum/Webster
LMA/Outlaw
Oden/Przy
Kopo, Freeland, Claver stashes.

I'm struggling to find a single player other than Blake on this roster that wasn't a draft pick or last week's free agent signing. In the last 3 drafts KP has picked/maneuvered for Oden, Rudy, Bayless, Batum, Freeland, Kopo, Claver, Pendergraph, Cunningham, Mills. Maybe those guys will turn out great, but two have been injured a good portion of their (short) careers, two were underutilized last year, one barely got off of the bench, 3 are stashed in Europe. Meanwhile, the expiring contracts of Franchise, Magloire and Raef combined to net us nothing except 7.717M in space to get Andre Miller. His trades have brought us Von Wafer, Channing, Rudy, James Jones, Ike Diogu and Michael Ruffin--only one of whom still plays for us. One could say that he hasn't really done a thing to help the team other than let Roy, Blake, Outlaw, LMA and Przy keep doing their "steady" thing, bringing us up to the magical 54 win level and a 1st round playoff exit. But excoriate away on those questioning why our roster seems to be the one that isn't improving among the WC contenders.


EDIT: I wish I was better at sarcasm. In case I haven't said it publicly, you producer guys are world-class!

 

[Ed O]

I'm still confused.

Besides which, Chandler is actually the better player, or at least, has done more.

I don't think so in either case. Chandler is five days younger than Okafor, but has played several more seasons than Okafor. Let's look at career numbers:

		Chandler	Okafor
Games		537		326
Minutes		15061		11212
Rebounds	4841		3516
Blocks		756		621
Points		4413		4630
Career PER	15.3		17.7

Okafor is pretty clearly superior in terms of career PER, primarily, I would guess, based on his superior scoring.

Last year was even more lopsided, with the PER differential at 18.0 to 13.4 for Okafor.

Chandler battled an injury that caused the Thunder to reject the trade they made for him, and it's TBD whether that was a one year blip that hurt his production or something that will linger moving forward.

I'm also confused why the Hornets, who traded Chandler for chump change because they were broke, suddenly trade him for a much longer contract. Did Shinn win the lottery?

In the SHORT run, they save money... several millions over the next couple of years, with a possibility of getting under the luxury tax with another move or two. Saving money in the short run and getting a superior player at the same time is not a bad strategy, but it's definitely a gamble financially...

Ed O.

 

[Minstrel]

Andre Miller is not a better player than Hedo Turkoglu, especially at this stage of their career.

His productivity has been higher virtually every year. His last two seasons, Miller's PER has been over 18. Turkoglu averaged around 16 for the past two years. He was barely average this past season. In addition, Miller can replace Blake while Turkoglu replaces the more valuable (due to defense and likely improvement) Batum.

I could care less about the contract if it brings a ring.

Yes, but when it is attached to a player who isn't all that good, like Turkoglu, it's a problem. Miller is better and his much lower financial drag makes him even more of a positive.

I can tell you that from what I saw on the films of Hedo coming into town they could definitly use a dose of professionality.

I'm afraid that makes no sense. The idea that Turkoglu was frightened off by someone meeting him at the airport with a sign is beyond ridiculous. I agree that the trainer-with-a-sign was a bit silly, but no free agent decides the next five years of their life because there was a guy with a sign at the airport.

What makes this even sillier is that we know Turkoglu's reason for choosing the Raptors. There's no mystery to speculate about. His wife preferred Toronto due to the greater Turkish population and generally more European atmosphere. This was explicitly reported.

Sometimes things don't work out. The Turkoglus preferred the city of Toronto to the city of Portland. Shame (if you like Turkoglu as a player, which I didn't) but that's not Pritchard's fault.

 

[OddEnormous]

I'm upset because the mere hype of everyone talking about how valuable RELC's contract was is greatly overstated. Not. Valuable. Whatsoever.

You're upset over what you yourself labeled as hype?

Now that's funny.

 

[OddEnormous]

professionality.

LOL

 

[Idog1976]

OMG!!1!!

And what if they threw in Augustin as well!! WOW!!!!! Ultimate Pritchslap!

And what if Paul Allen used his own private satellite system ala' Google Earth to find the Fountain of Youth in the Everglades and agreed to give some of it's waters to MJ as long as he signed with Portland for 10 years at the LLE! And what if Giant Spacehamsters crawled out of the sewers in NOH and Obama declared it a disaster area invoking an overlooked provision of the CBA that states "Any city hit TWICE by disaster status in a 5 year period must immediately trade their starting PG to the Portland TrailBlazers"

PG: Paul
SG: MJ
SF: Roy
PF LMA/Okafor
C: Oden

I think we might challenge this year if we play our drug induced hallucination right...

 

[Minstrel]

And what if Paul Allen used his own private satellite system ala' Google Earth to find the Fountain of Youth in the Everglades and agreed to give some of it's waters to MJ as long as he signed with Portland for 10 years at the LLE!

A little too soon to do Michael Jackson jokes, man.

And did Ponce de Leon fail only due to lack of GPS?

 

[Idog1976]

A little too soon to do Michael Jackson jokes, man.

And did Ponce de Leon fail only due to lack of GPS?

LMAO, obviously I meant the G.O.A.T a man I scorned in his time because he was godlike and we had passed on him. I grew up watching Bird, Magic, Kareem, Drexler, Isaiah, KJ, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, D. Robinson, Ewing and Jordan. There is no question in my mind that many of those names will be in the HOF. But Jordan surpassed them all and after awhile seemed sometimes bored with the game, you know like those 10 games in the 72 win season.

I didn't realize how good Jordan was until he retired and I'm still waiting to see it. LBJ might do it some day, but he hasn't yet of course he hasn't had a Pippen either. Kobe to me is not on MJ's Level. Even if Kobe wins 6 rings I will respect his offensive talent and all around amazingly skilled game. Still, Jordan I swear to god would just destroy LBJ and Kobe I just know this to be truth. I just wish I did have access to a fountain of youth, MJ signs with the Blazers (like he should of) and I get to watch him hoop Kobe and LBJ 7 times or more a year. Here's hoping Roy does it in his place and that Oden aspires to levels of the great centers I mentioned.

 

[MARIS61]

I am amused that his "failure to land this big fish" resulted in his signing a better player for a much, much better contract. With failure like that, he may just fail into a championship.

Miller is a better player than Hedo?

 

[PapaG]

His productivity has been higher virtually every year. His last two seasons, Miller's PER has been over 18. Turkoglu averaged around 16 for the past two years. He was barely average this past season. In addition, Miller can replace Blake while Turkoglu replaces the more valuable (due to defense and likely improvement) Batum.{/QUOTE]

The front office deemed Batum worth replacing over Blake as a priority. That's why they offered Hedo.

Yes, but when it is attached to a player who isn't all that good, like Turkoglu, it's a problem. Miller is better and his much lower financial drag makes him even more of a positive.

Is Miller "better"? Not sure, because it's hard to compare positions. I do know Hedo got a big contract because he actually played a key role in a long playoff run.

I'm afraid that makes no sense. The idea that Turkoglu was frightened off by someone meeting him at the airport with a sign is beyond ridiculous. I agree that the trainer-with-a-sign was a bit silly, but no free agent decides the next five years of their life because there was a guy with a sign at the airport.

Yeah, I don't think the sign played any role in Hedo's decision.

What makes this even sillier is that we know Turkoglu's reason for choosing the Raptors. There's no mystery to speculate about. His wife preferred Toronto due to the greater Turkish population and generally more European atmosphere. This was explicitly reported.

Yep

Sometimes things don't work out. The Turkoglus preferred the city of Toronto to the city of Portland. Shame (if you like Turkoglu as a player, which I didn't) but that's not Pritchard's fault.

I'm still elated that Hedo didn't end up in Portland. Trying to sell hard Miller, who was at the very best Plan C, seems like an argument that not even the organization was willing to make a month ago.

 

[Minstrel]

Miller is a better player than Hedo?

Yup. Do you agree?

 

[Minstrel]

The front office deemed Batum worth replacing over Blake as a priority. That's why they offered Hedo.

Yes. I don't agree with them on that. I'm glad with how things worked out.

Is Miller "better"? Not sure, because it's hard to compare positions. I do know Hedo got a big contract because he actually played a key role in a long playoff run.

I don't think positions are actually that hard to compare. Unlike baseball, where you can have a pitcher and hitter doing very different things, all players in basketball are doing the same things: scoring, passing, rebounding, handling the ball and defending. Some positions gravitate toward emphasizing more of one over the other, but all of them are still valuable at all positions and you can compare the total production and defense.

I agree that your stated reason is why Turkoglu got a big contract. I think "playing a key role in a long playoff role" is often how players get overpaid.

Trying to sell hard Miller, who was at the very best Plan C, seems like an argument that not even the organization was willing to make a month ago.

The organization seems to value Miller relatively lower than I do. I always preferred Miller to Turkoglu. Miller, though, would have been my third choice, too, after Sessions and Millsap. I'm glad they took a shot on Millsap and I wish they had on Sessions.

 

[PapaG]

Yup. Do you agree?

I guess that depends on what role he's asked to play. Miller has proven to be a PG who puts up some stats but isn't a winner. Hedo isn't very efficient but has a unique skill set that not many players his size possess.

Are either of them difference makers in the "Summer of Cap Space"? I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Minstrel]

Miller has proven to be a PG who puts up some stats

Michael Jordan was good at putting up stats, too. It's interesting how points, rebounds, assists and lack of turnovers help teams.

but isn't a winner.

He's a total winner. But when he's on a roster with 14 non-winners, he's out-voted.

 

[MARIS61]

His productivity has been higher virtually every year. His last two seasons, Miller's PER has been over 18. Turkoglu averaged around 16 for the past two years. He was barely average this past season. In addition, Miller can replace Blake while Turkoglu replaces the more valuable (due to defense and likely improvement) Batum.{/QUOTE]

The front office deemed Batum worth replacing over Blake as a priority. That's why they offered Hedo.

From last summer's badly bungled draft, through another season of Nate refusing to develop our young bench, to wasting Raef's contract, to trading the only hope we have had for a PG to lead this team and pissing off several of our best players by doing so, to bringing in an aging PG with nothing substantial to offer us in the long run.

Actually, KP wanted Hedo to replace the gimpy and unlikely to ever realize much of a healthy career Martell Webster. And mainly just to pacify whiny Nate, not because Hedo OR Miller fits this team or it's advertised goal of an uptempo dynasty.

Last years team with a different coach would crush this years team under Nate.

This summer marked Nate's coup of control of this team's destiny, shoving KP out of the picture and setting us back several years at the very least. A title is doubtful. A dynasty is merely a pipe dream now.

 

[PapaG]

Michael Jordan was good at putting up stats, too. It's interesting how points, rebounds, assists and lack of turnovers help teams.

Andre Miller is exactly like Michael Jordan. Very astute.

He's a total winner. But when he's on a roster with 14 non-winners, he's out-voted.

He's a winner, he just isn't a lead player on a winning team, and he's never won. Other than that, everything is perfect.

 

[Minstrel]

Andre Miller is exactly like Michael Jordan. Very astute.

Yes, in that he's a player to whom stats are attributed. That's how he and Jordan are alike.

He's a winner, he just isn't a lead player on a winning team, and he's never won. Other than that, everything is perfect.

He's a good player who has been on teams that didn't have enough total talent to win. Absolutely.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Andre Miller is exactly like Michael Jordan. Very astute.

He's a winner, he just isn't a lead player on a winning team, and he's never won. Other than that, everything is perfect.

Prior to last season this same statement could have been ascribed to Brandon Roy, hell he still hasn't made it out of the first round!!

 

[Idog1976]

Yes. I don't agree with them on that. I'm glad with how things worked out.



I don't think positions are actually that hard to compare. Unlike baseball, where you can have a pitcher and hitter doing very different things, all players in basketball are doing the same things: scoring, passing, rebounding, handling the ball and defending. Some positions gravitate toward emphasizing more of one over the other, but all of them are still valuable at all positions and you can compare the total production and defense.

I agree that your stated reason is why Turkoglu got a big contract. I think "playing a key role in a long playoff role" is often how players get overpaid.



The organization seems to value Miller relatively lower than I do. I always preferred Miller to Turkoglu. Miller, though, would have been my third choice, too, after Sessions and Millsap. I'm glad they took a shot on Millsap and I wish they had on Sessions.

Totally agree with your ranking of FA and RFA's. Sessions was my number one target followed by Millsap. I literally got a sinking feeling in my stomach when I first heard that we were signing Hedo for $10 and 5. My relief over not signing Hedo greatly exceeds my happiness that we signed Miller. He was a low on the totem pole option for me but light years ahead of Hedo. Turkoglu's contract has this written all over it!

 

[gatorpops]

I am hoping that if nothing else, that Portland became educated in how to court a free agent. Sometimes you have to learn from mistakes. Hopefully, they are somebody else's mistakes, but that doesn't always work out.

Let's face it. This was KP's first attempt at landing a "big fish". Hopefully he learned from losing it.

What's he supposed to do, talk to the wife first and woo her?

Come on, she wanted to live elsewhere and he accommodated her. Can't say that I blame them. Sounds like a good family to me. Might as well choose the best place for themselves to live as long as they are making all those millions anyway.

 

[OddEnormous]

He's a winner, he just isn't a lead player on a winning team, and he's never won. Other than that, everything is perfect.

I hate when people do what I'm about to do... But buck Williams was never on a winning team before he came to Portland either.