Did the Suns really get better?

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Sug

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When I read the trade I just figured they realized the Nash era was over. Jason Richardson was a stud, and to be honest he was for the most part the guy that determined if they were going to win.

I know they just beat OKC and all, but in the end I think they will finish below .500
 
From the standpoint of this season, I think it was a lateral move. They picked up a good young center and will clear some cap space when Carter's contract expires.
 
I wouldn't mind (don't think they'd do it) trying to trade them BRoy (and ?) for possibly Vince (for his expiring) and Childress (I think he's a player long term, at his rock bottom value right now, and they want out from his contract). Basically they'd get to send out 50M (Vince is 17+4mil buyout + 30 million (Childress 5 year deal)) for Roy's 85M. It's a 35 million dollar gamble on Roy. He wouldn't fit into their fast paced style, but he'd definitely be surrounded by shooters with a bunch of open space to work with.
 
From the standpoint of this season, I think it was a lateral move. They picked up a good young center and will clear some cap space when Carter's contract expires.

This is essentially my opinion. The Suns took a step back or, at least, didn't get better in the short-term, but might be somewhat more flexible going forward.
 
Yes, they got better.

Forget about Vince Carter, he in the trade for cap relief at the end of the season.

They ditched a guy (Hedo) is really only effective with the ball in his hands.
That wasn't going to happen with Nash on the team.

They will miss Jason Richardson no doubt about it.

But they got another good 3 point shooter who also plays pretty good defense in Micheal Pietrus.
They got another big to either split time with or take over for Robin Lopez should Robin's back act up again.

Both guys are young, hungry and will thrive next to Nash.

I am pretty sure this move dooms Portland's playoff chances if they had any before the trade.
 
The Suns took a real step back this season. They've begun a soft landing for a full post-Nash rebuild.
 
Yes, they got better.

Forget about Vince Carter, he in the trade for cap relief at the end of the season.

They ditched a guy (Hedo) is really only effective with the ball in his hands.
That wasn't going to happen with Nash on the team.

They will miss Jason Richardson no doubt about it.

But they got another good 3 point shooter who also plays pretty good defense in Micheal Pietrus.
They got another big to either split time with or take over for Robin Lopez should Robin's back act up again.

Both guys are young, hungry and will thrive next to Nash.

I am pretty sure this move dooms Portland's playoff chances if they had any before the trade.

I really don't think so. Carter is a shadow, Pietrus is a lowly role player at best, and Gortat is unproven. They gave up one of their best scoring threats, a guy who almost single-handedly destroyed Portland in the playoffs last season, and all they got was Vince Carter to fill his shoes. It doesn't look good. Hedo didn't contribute so he's a wash, but losing Richardson will really hurt. I think they're done.
 
Yeah, I was a fan of Pietrus as a prospect, but he really never developed. His defense is only so-so and he's not particularly productive.

Gortat helps them a bit, but I think the downgrade from Richardson to Carter at least cancels it, if not making them worse.
 
Yeah, I was a fan of Pietrus as a prospect, but he really never developed. His defense is only so-so and he's not particularly productive.

Gortat helps them a bit, but I think the downgrade from Richardson to Carter at least cancels it, if not making them worse.

The move doesn't really make sense to me... I don't think they can honestly say that they made this trade to get better this season, so was it done to move contracts? If so, why not trade Nash? I think they're beyond being able to compete for a championship, so why not blow it up and start building for the future?
 
The move doesn't really make sense to me... I don't think they can honestly say that they made this trade to get better this season, so was it done to move contracts? If so, why not trade Nash? I think they're beyond being able to compete for a championship, so why not blow it up and start building for the future?

My oft-stated opinion is that "blowing it up" just to gain salary flexibility (and maybe a better draft pick) doesn't tend to get you closer to contention. If some team offered Phoenix a chest full of epix loot for Nash, they'd be silly to turn it down...but dealing Nash just to dump salary isn't a good idea for them, IMO (and dealing Richardson just to dump salary isn't a good idea, either, as far as I'm concerned...but maybe they just like Gortat as a center solution for the future).
 
My oft-stated opinion is that "blowing it up" just to gain salary flexibility (and maybe a better draft pick) doesn't tend to get you closer to contention. If some team offered Phoenix a chest full of epix loot for Nash, they'd be silly to turn it down...but dealing Nash just to dump salary isn't a good idea for them, IMO (and dealing Richardson just to dump salary isn't a good idea, either, as far as I'm concerned...but maybe they just like Gortat as a center solution for the future).

Sure, trading Nash just to trade him isn't a good idea, but if they can get a high draft pick and a young player for him, why not make the move? I'd be shopping him with the intention of adding pieces that will help the team down the road, because they have very little shot at making the playoffs, let alone advancing past the first round. A team like NY would be awesome. If the Knicks could swing a deal for Melo AND Nash, they'd be in a good spot to make some noise in the playoffs.
 
Sure, trading Nash just to trade him isn't a good idea, but if they can get a high draft pick and a young player for him, why not make the move? I'd be shopping him with the intention of adding pieces that will help the team down the road, because they have very little shot at making the playoffs, let alone advancing past the first round. A team like NY would be awesome. If the Knicks could swing a deal for Melo AND Nash, they'd be in a good spot to make some noise in the playoffs.

Depends on the young player, I guess. If a contender wanted to give up a young player who had star upside, I could see it. The main motivation shouldn't be salary clearing, though, in my view.
 
Sure, trading Nash just to trade him isn't a good idea, but if they can get a high draft pick and a young player for him, why not make the move? I'd be shopping him with the intention of adding pieces that will help the team down the road, because they have very little shot at making the playoffs, let alone advancing past the first round. A team like NY would be awesome. If the Knicks could swing a deal for Melo AND Nash, they'd be in a good spot to make some noise in the playoffs.

That would be a fun team to watch. Suns EAST plus Melo.
 
It was a meh trade for Phoenix. I think the fact that Phoenix gets a 1st round pick was what made the deal. A wash talent-wise, but for the future and getting size I think it was a win for Phoenix. Orlando is definitely in win-now mode.
 
They got much worse, but getting rid of Hedo's contract in favor of Carter's was smart for their impending rebuilding. Pietrus and Gortat are also nice young(ish) pieces. Get Nash out of there!
 
From the standpoint of this season, I think it was a lateral move. They picked up a good young center and will clear some cap space when Carter's contract expires.


This.


They got better because they weren't going to win anything this year anyway, so they made sure they were in possition to potentially be better in the next few years.

That is what Portland needs to understand for their own team
 
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They beat Okl. City last night . . . Grant Hill leading the way with 31/10. That won't happen ever again. They shot 58% to 43% for OC, and they won by 3. Just reaffirms what we already know about Okl. City - they'd be scary if they played defense (and had a center).

I don't think Carter and Co. coming in will help them much. Still a .500 team.
 
This.


They got better because they weren't going to win anything this year anyway, so they made sure they were in possition to potentially be batter in the next few years.

That is what Portland needs to understand for their own team

I'll add my own ditto to this train of thought.

Moving forward (post lockout) they've got two fairly decent 7 footers, they'll have that Dragic kid to play the point and he seems kind of promising and if they're really smart they'll flip Nash for a young stud prospect from a contender ... and if they really do it right, they might even get a top ten draft pick this year and next year and hopefully will have themselves some new elite talent to reboot their team.
 
They got better...are you kidding me?

Richardson was going to leave this next year, they bought another year with Carter to go with aging players Nash & Hill....

They got a young center in Gortat, signed to a relatively good deal....to pai with Lopez..they at least have some size now....

Pietrus is a decent wing player, who is still fairly young at 28, I believe his production will go up in PHX....

Basically, they got some pieces to keep them somewhat competitive now and going forward...a draft pick, Gortat, Pietrus...all fairly young...and when carter\nash\Hill retire a lot of cap space to hasten the rebuild....

It's not like thier record was great before the deal...they were treading water, and now they can still tread water and move towards the future....
 
stein has them at #11 in power rankings ahead of hawks, hornets and us
 
Time will tell of course but I am expecting Gortat and Pietrus to benefit mightly from the "Nash Effect".
Hell, even Vince might show up now and again.

And outside of all of that, that team has hope for the future now.

Portland, on the other hand, does not.
 
Moving forward (post lockout) they've got two fairly decent 7 footers, they'll have that Dragic kid to play the point and he seems kind of promising and if they're really smart they'll flip Nash for a young stud prospect from a contender ... and if they really do it right, they might even get a top ten draft pick this year and next year and hopefully will have themselves some new elite talent to reboot their team.

This kind of synopsis is what has fueled year after year after year after year after year of Warriors/Clippers/Kings/etc hopes.

"We'll have this decent young player and that decent young player and that decent young player and we'll flip our famous veteran for more good young talent and we'll have a high draft pick and salary space...it's a great situation!"

Which is why I don't think the Blazers need to start tearing down. Yes, if some great deal comes along for older (or any) player, pull the trigger. But the "We're mediocre, so let's raze the foundation, get horrible and set ourselves up for future glory" seems more likely to put the team in a 5-10 years of being awful (with peaks as mediocre) than creating a championship foundation.
 
And outside of all of that, that team has hope for the future now.

Portland, on the other hand, does not.

Sorry, but... give me a break!

Phoenix now has hope for the future because they acquired a couple of guys in their mid-to-late 20's? Because they might get cap space to sign someone as good as Aldridge?

Phoenix looks better after this deal than they did... in the intermediate-to-long run. But they aren't suddenly transformed into a team of the next decade because of it, and it's not like the Suns are bursting at the seams with good young players.

Ed O.
 
This kind of synopsis is what has fueled year after year after year after year after year of Warriors/Clippers/Kings/etc hopes.

"We'll have this decent young player and that decent young player and that decent young player and we'll flip our famous veteran for more good young talent and we'll have a high draft pick and salary space...it's a great situation!"

Which is why I don't think the Blazers need to start tearing down. Yes, if some great deal comes along for older (or any) player, pull the trigger. But the "We're mediocre, so let's raze the foundation, get horrible and set ourselves up for future glory" seems more likely to put the team in a 5-10 years of being awful (with peaks as mediocre) than creating a championship foundation.

I guess I forgot to mention the part where they have to get lucky too. In any case, what makes this so different than the Blazers blowing it up under Patterson/Nash and then going through another tear down under KP? The only differences I really see are that KP had a better knack for finding talent with his high lottery picks than the previous regime did.

I'm not saying that there is any guarantee of success at the end of the process, but there's certainly not much guarantee of success with simply standing pat or making minor tweaks here and there either.

So what is it that you would do to reverse the team's recent fortunes? I don't see a lot of free agents clamoring to come play here nor do a lot of teams seem willing to part with bonafide stars.
 
I think they got better now and long term. They lose Richardson's scoring, which Carter could arguably replace, but gain a better defender at the 2 in pietrus, and a solid C in Gortat. He at least adds another dimension to the team where they maybe could guard a bigger C, as opposed to just stretching him out and hoping for the best. I like Lopez and Gortat as a 1-2 punch. Frye to stretch the D at the 4. I'd start Pietrus alongside Hill and Nash, and let Carter do scoring off the bench, with Dragic and Dudley.
 
Sorry, but... give me a break!

Phoenix now has hope for the future because they acquired a couple of guys in their mid-to-late 20's? Because they might get cap space to sign someone as good as Aldridge?

Phoenix looks better after this deal than they did... in the intermediate-to-long run. But they aren't suddenly transformed into a team of the next decade because of it, and it's not like the Suns are bursting at the seams with good young players.

Ed O.

I am sorry as well.

Phoenix will only be carrying one large contract (Nash's) after this season.
And he is still their best player.
And he makes the guys around him better.

The rest of their pieces will be tradable to one degree or another.
They have a collection of nice young players I wish Portland had.

On the other hand, Portland's largest contract is very long term and will be a financial albatross around the teams neck for the next 4 years minimum.
Portland's highest paid player can't make anyone better (and makes them arguably worse if the last two games is any indication).
Portland has a couple of nice players but they don't make enough to even be packaged together reasonably.

Sorry man, but the Suns future is actually brighter then Portland's right now.
 
I guess I forgot to mention the part where they have to get lucky too. In any case, what makes this so different than the Blazers blowing it up under Patterson/Nash and then going through another tear down under KP? The only differences I really see are that KP had a better knack for finding talent with his high lottery picks than the previous regime did.

KP started with a bottomed-out franchise. He had no choice but to build from nothing...he inherited nothing. PatterNash inherited a playoff team and tore it down in order to rebuild. So there's a big difference. We don't know what Pritchard would have done if he had taken over from Whitsitt, but he didn't tear anything down...nothing existed to be torn down.

I didn't recommend a tear down after the Whitsitt years and I don't believe it turned out to be productive. We can blame that on PatterNash incompetence, and I'm sure there's a healthy aspect of that, but ultimately I don't think forcing the franchise to the bottom of the league is a good or useful step towards building a contender.

So what is it that you would do to reverse the team's recent fortunes? I don't see a lot of free agents clamoring to come play here nor do a lot of teams seem willing to part with bonafide stars.

Luck ends up playing a part in any championship build. I would certainly not disagree with that. I simply believe that you always work to maximize the talent you have in hand so that when that lucky strike comes along (hopefully, it does) you have talent around that acquisition to make a run.

I don't believe in making moves with the intention of becoming a worse team on the idea that it will increase your chances of getting lucky. From my observation, it doesn't work that way. Teams that attempt that are usually bad for a long time. Even the recent benefactors of lucky strikes (like the Cavs and Nuggets) were terrible for years before they got James and Anthony.

I don't have any specific policy prescriptions since I don't talk to GMs and don't know what's available and the general value of Portland players around the league, but in more general terms I would seek to augment a current core of Aldridge, Batum and Matthews. I'd hold onto Miller and Camby until and unless an attractive trade asset was offered in return. I'd love to acquire a nice young player for the future with Miller, Camby and/or Prsybilla but, in the absence of such an opportunity, I'll hold onto them.

I recognize that Aldridge, Batum and Matthews (barring some totally unforeseen development) is nowhere near a title-contending core. But with a lucky opportunity (a Pau Gasol type of trade becoming available, an unexpected stud with a 15-20 pick, Oden returning and actually not re-injuring himself), those three players suddenly make a nice supporting cast. When that lucky opportunity comes along (and it has to for the Blazers to become a contender), it's a bad idea to have shit surrounding that player.

I used to believe that either you should be a top team or else you should be a bottom team, with cap space and top picks. After watching what that's generally gotten bottom teams, I no longer believe that. I now firmly believe that a team who's good enough to get into the playoffs, even if they get knocked out in the first round, is closer to title contention than a team who's got no talent but has cap space and a top draft pick.
 
Good post Minstrel. Agree with a lot of what was said. I think it has been mentioned before, or they have, but I think Dallas kind of fits that scenario, where they keep on adding pieces, and maybe it never gets them back to the Finals, but they look like a decent team right now, with pieces they can move to continue to get better. I think bailing on everyone and hoping for luck in the lottery is a bad idea right now. For some teams, maybe not. But the hope of finding that random franchise guy in the lottery, I don't really want to go through again.
 

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