Dissing Dwight Howard

[Rastapopoulos]

I missed the whole Dwight Howard calling out Stan Van Gundy thing, but am amused by this commentary, which includes these harsh comments on the "first team all-NBA'er":

"You've got a dominant player. Let him be dominant," Howard said.

Really? Prove it.

Everyone is killing the Magic for not getting Howard post touches down the stretch. Have you seen this guy's post game? It's not good, especially when he's going against a wide-body like Kendrick Perkins who can get under him and muscle him into a running 10-foot hook shot.

Howard made five field goals and four turnovers Tuesday night, and that's because he couldn't score one-on-one against Perkins, just as he's been unable to do all series. Howard's baskets in this series haven't come on post isolations. They've come when somebody else has penetrated and fed him on the move, or when he has grabbed an offensive board and slammed it home.

Howard scored twice off putbacks Tuesday night, and three other times directly off passes from Hedo Turkoglu. But in post-ups, he was useless. Orlando went to him on the first two plays of the game. He missed a shot on the first and committed a turnover on the second.

"The coaches have to recognize what's working on the floor and stick with it," Howard said.

They did, and that's why Howard didn't get the ball.

I've always thought Howard was overrated, both offensively and defensively. There is no doubt he is a great rebounder and shot-blocker, but I don't think that makes you first-team All-NBA. Yao destroyed him the last time they played.

But this column also reminded me a lot of Greg Oden. Oden has a Howard-esque offensive game, but tends only to get the ball with his back to the basket. More penetrate-and-dish or pick and roll would benefit Greg enormously.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Stan Van Gundy is on the hot seat right now (I guessing Shaq is loving this).

I really like Dwight Howard as a person and a player . . . but given how much hype he has gotten this year, I could see why some would feel he is overrated. What I see is a young 7 foot physical speciman that continues to grow leaps and bounds each year.

 

[hasoos]

I disagree. I have watched a fair share of Magic basketball this year, and in the games where they establish him early, he does great late in games. He shoots at damn near 60%. I don't care if most of them are dunks, 60% is great, and I would fucking kill to have that here. The Magic are losing for the same reason as they lost when Shaq was there. The perimeter players shooting too many 3's. If you live by the 3, die by the 3, in the playoffs, you will die. Period.

 

[andalusian]

But this column also reminded me a lot of Greg Oden. Oden has a Howard-esque offensive game, but tends only to get the ball with his back to the basket. More penetrate-and-dish or pick and roll would benefit Greg enormously.

D-12 is more skilled than Oden at this point - but Oden's lower body seems much stronger - he had little problem moving Perkins out of his way in the game at the Rose Garden.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

It is true that Dwight Howard just doesn't have a post game. He just is not a big scoring threat. In fact, if they didn't have all those outside shooters, defenses would completely collapse on him and he'd be pretty useless. He's sort of a Tyson Chandler on steroids. (And I mean literally. You do not have a body like that naturally. He looks like some science fiction character where a tiny creature is in charge of a giant robot. The tiny creature being Howard's head.) Say what you like about Shaq but he developed an effective post game.

I actually saw someone claim that Dwight Howard is the best Magic player ever. He's about half the player Shaq was. Shaq at his age would absolutely destroy Howard.

I love it that he's shown himself to be an egomaniac. I hope he gets Van Gundy fired and he finds out how much Van Gundy meant to that team.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

D-12 is more skilled than Oden at this point

I wouldn't say more skilled - I'd say "less clumsy".

 

[rocketeer]

I've always thought Howard was overrated, both offensively and defensively. There is no doubt he is a great rebounder and shot-blocker, but I don't think that makes you first-team All-NBA. Yao destroyed him the last time they played.

yao always beats dwight in their matchups. however, that doesn't mean that yao is better than dwight or the he deserves first team over him.

 

[Minstrel]

I disagree. I have watched a fair share of Magic basketball this year, and in the games where they establish him early, he does great late in games. He shoots at damn near 60%. I don't care if most of them are dunks, 60% is great, and I would fucking kill to have that here.

Dwight Howard had a .572 FG% and a .600 TS% this season.
Greg Oden had a .564 FG% and .599 TS% this season.

No need to kill, you've got it!

Howard is a bit more skilled than Oden right now, but he's played 5 seasons in the NBA and is older than Oden. Oden doesn't have to go very far to catch Howard in terms of low post skill. I think Oden has the ability to be a significantly better scorer in the post than Howard is.

 

[Ed O]

I think that where both Howard and Hollinger are off is that the number of SHOTS isn't an issue... it's the number of TOUCHES.

Howard barely touched the ball down the stretch. I don't think that them feeding him and him forcing up shots would be wise, but making the defense collapse on him opens up the perimeter... kicking it back out and then reestablishing position leads to dunks and fouls and easy points (even Howard occasionally hits a free throw).

To be honest, it sounds like the Magic failed to do what the coach was saying... SVG says that he wanted the team to PUSH the basketball, rather than slowing it down every possession. That, ultimately, is the coach's fault, but if the team didn't run when the coach wanted them to run, I'm not sure how he could have gotten Howard more touches if he wanted to get Howard more touches.

I think that everyone is right here... Howard should WANT more touches. Hollinger should point out that Howard getting more shots doesn't lead to more wins. And SVG will need to do a better job of getting his team to listen to him.

Ed O.

 

[44Thrilla]

The Magic have so many shooters on the floor that you can't double him. If he had a post game, we'd be seeing it. Kendrick Perkins is guarding him with no help, when Perkins is out, Big Baby is doing the same. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one time he got the ball outside of 5 feet and scored on either guy. That running hook through the lane usually misses badly, too. He might just be having a bad week or something, and honestly, I don't watch him enough to know if that's the case or not. But aside from rebounding he doesn't seem to be a factor for the team offensively and I don't think he has any right to complain.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I find it interesting that Yao and Howard are both such divisive players among fans. No matter how good they look on the stat sheet, there is a considerable group of fans who don't consider either of them to be true stars.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I find it interesting that Yao and Howard are both such divisive players among fans. No matter how good they look on the stat sheet, there is a considerable group of fans who don't consider either of them to be true stars.

They're sort of polar opposites. Yao is a great basketball player (no doubt because Sabonis was his idol) who is NOT a great athlete (unless height is an athletic ability). Howard is an amazing physical specimen who is not a great basketball player. We were spoilt by people like Hakeem, who was both. (Also Shaq, who was a more amazing physical specimen than Howard as well as a better basketball player.)

 

[Minstrel]

They're sort of polar opposites. Yao is a great basketball player (no doubt because Sabonis was his idol) who is NOT a great athlete (unless height is an athletic ability). Howard is an amazing physical specimen who is not a great basketball player. We were spoilt by people like Hakeem, who was both. (Also Shaq, who was a more amazing physical specimen than Howard as well as a better basketball player.)

Hakeem, Shaq and David Robinson. All exceptional athletes and players.

I agree that Yao and Dwight basically have deficits that the other has as a strength, which is why neither of them are on that inner-circle Hall of Fame level.

Oden has the size and athletic ability. To me, he showed the ability to be a great player, too, at Ohio State and in flashes this past year. Even if he never develops the array of skills that Yao has, he could be a Dwight Howard-like player with his athletic ability and instincts. Which would be a superstar level player, but not a once-in-a-generation center.

 

[mook]

I find it interesting that Yao and Howard are both such divisive players among fans. No matter how good they look on the stat sheet, there is a considerable group of fans who don't consider either of them to be true stars.

They both are living in the shadow of Shaq. It's like after Jordan retired and people kept asking, "Who is the next Jordan?"

Only the criticism is probably more severe, because Yao and Howard are the only two star centers in the game. There have been a dozen guys compared to Jordan (although the comparisons inevitably failed).

I hated Shaq as a player, but you have to give him credit. He was a truly awesome star. He had the physical tools to finish up with 7 or 8 titles and a strong argument for being the greatest of all time. Even without that drive, he wound up with 4 rings.

If it weren't for Shaq, people would be saying how Yao is everything Rick Smits never could be and the best center since Hakeem, and how Howard is going to be even better than Alonzo Mourning's short stint as a great player.

Instead they both seem just kind of....meh.

I think Oden will eventually suffer under the same comparisons. Or at least I hope he will.

If Oden is even in Shaq's shadow, we're winning championships.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

More harsh-but-fair words:

There is no avoiding this stark reality--precisely because Dwight Howard can otherwise be so good, that he isn't when it matters is hurtful. That he could be so much more only demonstrates that he should be. A break-out fifth season of more blocks in fewer minutes, steady authority over the defensive boards, and the occasional but expected 20-20 doesn't compensate for the fact that among "superstars," he's the one least likely to make you believe. Kobe, Lebron, CP3, Dwyane--those guys scare you, because you know they can choose victory. For that matter, who wouldn't pick a Billups, or a Pierce, or a Nash, or a Duncan before settling on Howard as a player in whom he or she will invest the confidence that a victory is only a will away? All of the misguided axiomatic reasoning that Howard is dominant means little when he so clearly isn't. As the Celtics get open looks across the court and at the rim, I don't see a defensive player who enables his teammates to be better. As the Magic live and die by the three, I don't see a pivot whose mere presence improves opportunities for the subordinates he's meant to bolster.

It is not Stan Van Gundy's pathetically panicked approach which makes Howard's hook shots awkward and ill-advised. It is not the neglect of passes which should have been thrown that limits Dwight's range. It is not the failure to work the ball inside-out which has robbed Dwight of an actual arsenal after five years. And forget the free-throw shooting; that probably wasn't even the problem on Tuesday night. Sure, it was stultifying that a 60% shooter at the stripe received the ball with 6 seconds left when trailing by three, but it was his first touch of the final three minutes because, after a series spent watching Superman stifled by an always-scowling Jimmy Olsen wearing Kryptonite green, his teammates surely had no faith that he could lead by example.

That's the great Dwight Howard? A player whose dominance has been exposed as such a charade that his own teammates are scared to throw him the ball? Dwight Howard should be better than that. His accolades and accomplishments certainly would say so. But again, I'm not relying on those perhaps objective data, because it's not the real point. Howard's frailty is like porn: you know it when you see it.

 

[hasoos]

Dwight Howard had a .572 FG% and a .600 TS% this season.
Greg Oden had a .564 FG% and .599 TS% this season.

No need to kill, you've got it!

Howard is a bit more skilled than Oden right now, but he's played 5 seasons in the NBA and is older than Oden. Oden doesn't have to go very far to catch Howard in terms of low post skill. I think Oden has the ability to be a significantly better scorer in the post than Howard is.

Maybe, but I wasn't comparing him to Oden. I was stating that he is the main option on that team and he only got 11 touches for the game. I would go ballistic if Brandon Roy only got 11 touches in a playoff game. Dwight Howard is their horse. He is the one guy that you can go to in almost any game, and have a distinct advantage, for Orlando.

I can tell you this. Stan Van Gundy better find a way to make it happen, and get Orlando a victory, because if they go out against Boston with Howard only getting 11 touches in a game, he will be packing his bags and looking for a new job.

 

[Minstrel]

Maybe, but I wasn't comparing him to Oden. I was stating that he is the main option on that team and he only got 11 touches for the game. I would go ballistic if Brandon Roy only got 11 touches in a playoff game.

He's not their main option. He's not a good scorer. He's arguably the best defender in the game, he's probably the best rebounder in the game and he has some offensive game. He is definitely not a #1 option.

As Hollinger pointed out, their record with him getting under 11 shots is almost the same as their record when he gets 11 or more shots. He only averages a little over 12 shots per game, and his number of shot attempts in wins is the same as in losses. Howard matters on offense, but he definitely shouldn't be their "go-to guy."

 

[hasoos]

He's not their main option. He's not a good scorer. He's arguably the best defender in the game, he's probably the best rebounder in the game and he has some offensive game. He is definitely not a #1 option.

As Hollinger pointed out, their record with him getting under 11 shots is almost the same as their record when he gets 11 or more shots. He only averages a little over 12 shots per game, and his number of shot attempts in wins is the same as in losses. Howard matters on offense, but he definitely shouldn't be their "go-to guy."

Well I beg to differ, because every game where they have established Dwight Howard early against Boston, they have won. That is a fact. See the difference you don't seem to understand it, when Orlando establishes their game from the inside out, the 3 point shooters are much more efficient. In the last several games, they have not been establishing Howard at all, and all their shots are contested on the perimeter. If you establish Howard early, he usually ends up with the number of touches he has not because "he isn't their horse", but because they start double and triple teaming him once he is established. Then he kicks to the open shooters, and Orlando's offense works. Not coincidentally, they have lost those games, where he wasn't established early, because it is only a matter of time before the 3 stops falling, and in the playoffs, that is death.

Secondly, this is the playoffs. Howard is their star player. He should relish the challenge, and ask for the rock. He is doing that. He is saying ok, my normal amount of shots isn't enough, get me the ball. When your star asks to step up, you give him the shot.

 

[Minstrel]

Well I beg to differ, because every game where they have established Dwight Howard early against Boston, they have won. That is a fact. See the difference you don't seem to understand it, when Orlando establishes their game from the inside out, the 3 point shooters are much more efficient. In the last several games, they have not been establishing Howard at all, and all their shots are contested on the perimeter. If you establish Howard early, he usually ends up with the number of touches he has not because "he isn't their horse", but because they start double and triple teaming him once he is established.

What you don't seem to understand is that Boston isn't double-teaming him (let alone triple-teaming him). They've been playing him one-on-one with Perkins and Davis. Howard doesn't have the post moves to beat players he can't push around, and Perkins and Davis are too strong for him to simply overwhelm.

Your comments sound like someone relying on an abstract theory rather than actually watching the games. If it were true that Howard was drawing double- and triple-teams, I'd agree with you that he needs lots more touches. But that isn't remotely true. He's getting the ball against one defender and he's looked inept when he's tried to score out of the post. His value to Orlando in this series has been on the boards and on defense, not on offense.

Secondly, this is the playoffs. Howard is their star player. He should relish the challenge, and ask for the rock. He is doing that.

I have no problem with him asking for the ball. A good coach shouldn't do what his star asks if it's bad for the team. Feeding Howard, when he's pulling single coverage and can't score against it, would be bad for the Magic.

 

[PapaG]

Hakeem, Shaq and David Robinson. All exceptional athletes and players.

I agree that Yao and Dwight basically have deficits that the other has as a strength, which is why neither of them are on that inner-circle Hall of Fame level.

Oden has the size and athletic ability. To me, he showed the ability to be a great player, too, at Ohio State and in flashes this past year. Even if he never develops the array of skills that Yao has, he could be a Dwight Howard-like player with his athletic ability and instincts. Which would be a superstar level player, but not a once-in-a-generation center.

Oden doesn't have Howard's athletic ability, but he does have him on size. Howard is one of the more athletic players in the entire league, which is incredible considering his size. Oden isn't as coordinated as Howard at this point, and simply watching Howard in a dunk contest versus Oden rimchecking himself tells me Greg has a ways to go to regain all of his athleticism.

 

[Minstrel]

Oden doesn't have Howard's athletic ability, but he does have him on size. Howard is one of the more athletic players in the entire league, which is incredible considering his size..

Oden's pre-draft measureables (in terms of jumping, quickness, speed) were equivalent to Dwight Howard's, despite Oden being larger. So Oden was just as athletic as Howard coming out of Ohio State. That's one of the reasons that he was considered one of the best center prospects ever. I suppose we'll have to see whether he fully regains that athleticism, but this last season doesn't tell us much...it's not until the second season after the surgery that the player is supposed to be fully recovered.

 

[PapaG]

Oden's pre-draft measureables (in terms of jumping, quickness, speed) were equivalent to Dwight Howard's, despite Oden being larger. So Oden was just as athletic as Howard coming out of Ohio State. That's one of the reasons that he was considered one of the best center prospects ever. I suppose we'll have to see whether he fully regains that athleticism, but this last season doesn't tell us much...it's not until the second season after the surgery that the player is supposed to be fully recovered.

Coordination isn't a measured value. Howard has it; Oden didn't this year. Mike Mamula had one of the best NFL Combines in history; he sucked as a player because he wasn't coordinated.

 

[Minstrel]

Coordination isn't a measured value. Howard has it; Oden didn't this year.

Howard looked quite awkward as a rookie, too. Oden looked extremely coordinated in Ohio State. I don't think it's a native deficit, just an issue of lack of experience with NBA speed and his own instincts being betrayed by lacking the explosion he's counted on through his basketball life.

 

[PapaG]

Howard looked quite awkward as a rookie, too. Oden looked extremely coordinated in Ohio State. I don't think it's a native deficit, just an issue of lack of experience with NBA speed and his own instincts being betrayed by lacking the explosion he's counted on through his basketball life.

My only point is that Oden, while having (or he had) outstanding athleticism pre-injuries at the NBA pre-draft camp, is not at Dwight Howard's athletic level at present.

 

[Minstrel]

My only point is that Oden, while having (or he had) outstanding athleticism pre-injuries at the NBA pre-draft camp, is not at Dwight Howard's athletic level at present.

No arguments there.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The hits keep coming.

 

[hasoos]

What you don't seem to understand is that Boston isn't double-teaming him (let alone triple-teaming him). They've been playing him one-on-one with Perkins and Davis. Howard doesn't have the post moves to beat players he can't push around, and Perkins and Davis are too strong for him to simply overwhelm.

Your comments sound like someone relying on an abstract theory rather than actually watching the games. If it were true that Howard was drawing double- and triple-teams, I'd agree with you that he needs lots more touches. But that isn't remotely true. He's getting the ball against one defender and he's looked inept when he's tried to score out of the post. His value to Orlando in this series has been on the boards and on defense, not on offense.



I have no problem with him asking for the ball. A good coach shouldn't do what his star asks if it's bad for the team. Feeding Howard, when he's pulling single coverage and can't score against it, would be bad for the Magic.

What the hell are you watching? They are too double teaming him. The thing is they disguise it. Rhondo sits down on the baseline at the edge of the key and waits there, just a few feet off of the post defender. Every single play. It is a soft double team but it is enough to keep Rhondo from having to be on his guy, and he cheats so he can try to get back. Keep trying to act like I am not watching the game. I have watched every one of them. You will note Howards production last night and a W. Coincidence? I think not.

I will also point out that because he was getting the ball and attacking, all of Bostons bigs were in foul trouble, and they had to try and win with guys like Scalabrene on the floor. So, even when he wasn't double teamed he drew fouls. He may not have hit all his foul shots, but then again, most of Bostons bigs were in so deep of foul trouble they were not on the floor in crunch time.

Note: 16 attempts from the floor. Note: 12 attempts at the line. Note; Add one to the W column.

 

[Minstrel]

What the hell are you watching? They are too double teaming him. The thing is they disguise it. Rhondo sits down on the baseline at the edge of the key and waits there, just a few feet off of the post defender. Every single play.

That rarely happens. Rondo roves defensively (because Boston doesn't respect Alston's shot), he is not sitting and waiting to double-team Howard. Sometimes he ends up trying to harass Howard, but he's nothing like a dedicated double-teamer of Howard. By and large, the Celtics have been playing man defense with Perkins or Davis.

And yes, Howard had a very nice game offensively yesterday. He's certainly capable of that, he simply hasn't been doing it a lot this playoffs.

 

[44Thrilla]

The hits keep coming.

Yeah, I just saw that and was about to post it. The video illustrates how awful he is going one on one in the low post. It has been like that all series.

[video=youtube;enuJrnd-1b8]

 

[44Thrilla]

That rarely happens. Rondo roves defensively (because Boston doesn't respect Alston's shot), he is not sitting and waiting to double-team Howard. Sometimes he ends up trying to harass Howard, but he's nothing like a dedicated double-teamer of Howard. By and large, the Celtics have been playing man defense with Perkins or Davis.

And yes, Howard had a very nice game offensively yesterday. He's certainly capable of that, he simply hasn't been doing it a lot this playoffs.

This is exactly correct. Rondo might be in the area and take a quick swipe at the ball, but there is no double team.