Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (1 Viewer)

[crowTrobot]

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to prove with your quotes from the Bible.

i'm not trying to prove anything in particular at this time. just pointing out the obvious - that christians necessarily have to selectively interpret what is written in the bible to shoehorn it into modern notions of morality and culpability. i assume that is the gist of why eric started this thread.

 

[magnifier661]

i'm not trying to prove anything in particular at this time. just pointing out the obvious - that christians necessarily have to selectively interpret what is written in the bible to shoehorn it into modern notions of morality and culpability. i assume that is the gist of why eric started this thread.

I tend to think after Jesus came and died for our sins, it didn't become a religion but a relationship. We all have the holy ghost, which is our cellphone to Christ, who is the bridge to heaven. I believe that no religion is right, but our soul is. No person can judge, only god can. So all of this is between you and god.

 

[ABM]

christians necessarily have to selectively interpret what is written in the bible to shoehorn it into modern notions of morality and culpability.

Not exactly sure what you mean by that My belief is based upon absolutes in the Scriptures that have nothing to do with shoehorning into modern notions of morality and culpability. They're timeless.

OTOH, rationalism and moral relativism are moving targets. Always will be.

 

[barfo]

Not exactly sure what you mean by that My belief is based upon absolutes in the Scriptures that have nothing to do with shoehorning into modern notions of morality and culpability. They're timeless.

Yes, timeless, exactly.

Deuteronomy 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

barfo

 

[ABM]

Yes, timeless, exactly.



barfo

What's you point? The Old Testament had all kinds of fun things. The New Testament (Covenant), along with the arrival of Jesus covered them all...once and for all. That's where my belief system begins and ends.....with Jesus. It was God's plan/promise back then and nothing has changed since.

 

[barfo]

That's where my belief system begins and ends.....with Jesus.

Ah. I could have sworn that earlier in this thread you were saying you tried to obey the ENTIRE bible.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

oh yeah? i can't take more than 3 oz of toothpaste on an airplane because of someones not-so-benign religious faith.

I don't think that's because of their religious faith, is it?

 

[PapaG]

i'm not trying to prove anything in particular at this time. just pointing out the obvious - that christians necessarily have to selectively interpret what is written in the bible to shoehorn it into modern notions of morality and culpability. i assume that is the gist of why eric started this thread.

Not really. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. Most Christians I grew up around base their beliefs on the New Testament. I never once heard a reading from Leviticus in Catholic mass when I was an altar boy or was sitting in the pews. I just never developed faith, which is why I left the church, because I didn't see the point in spending my Sunday mornings praising something I didn't know was real. Others I know have faith. It's not a big deal to me.

 

[ABM]

Ah. I could have sworn that earlier in this thread you were saying you tried to obey the ENTIRE bible.

barfo

I did. Adam & Eve rebelled against God in the garden, He had to change some things. The short of it is, virtually the entire Old Testament is a history lesson pointing out that, no matter how hard he/she tries, mankind will always fall short of God's commandments and laws....and sacrifices for sin. Also within the Old Testament, though, is the foretelling of Jesus, who would come to earth, live the perfect life none of us could, then take on all the sin sacrifices for all mankind, then and evermore. It was a gift to us. A free gift.....only received through faith in Him. It then becomes a "relationship" not "religion", which is nothing more than checking off a list of rules and regulations. Oh, God's standards/absolutes still apply, but Christ is now there as my advocate...though His Holy Spirit who resides with in me. It's the coolest thing in the world!

In regards to your comment, though, here's one piece of Scripture which is helpful to me....

There's nothing like the written Word of God for showing you the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another—showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way. Through the Word we are put together and shaped up for the tasks God has for us." 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[barfo]

I did. Adam & Eve rebelled against God in the garden, He had to change some things. The short of it is, virtually the entire Old Testament is a history lesson pointing out that, no matter how hard he/she tries, mankind will always fall short of God's commandments and laws....and sacrifices for sin. Also within the Old Testament, though, is the foretelling of Jesus, who would come to earth, live the perfect life none of us could, then take on all the sin sacrifices for all mankind, then and evermore. It was a gift to us. A free gift.....only received through faith in Him. It then becomes a "relationship" not "religion", which is nothing more than checking off a list of rules and regulations. Oh, God's standards/absolutes still apply, but Christ is now there as my advocate...though His Holy Spirit who resides with in me. It's the coolest thing in the world!

In regards to your comment, though, here's one piece of Scripture which is helpful to me....

So what about plowing with an ox and an ass together? Is that cool with God now, or not?

barfo

 

[ABM]

So what about plowing with an ox and an ass together? Is that cool with God now, or not?

barfo

I've never tried. Doesn't sound very fun, though.

 

[crowTrobot]

Not exactly sure what you mean by that My belief is based upon absolutes in the Scriptures that have nothing to do with shoehorning into modern notions of morality and culpability. They're timeless.

i mean you don't take the parts of the bible that are contradicted by modern morality seriously. you make excuses for them. "oh, that's the old testament, jesus did away with that" is just an excuse. the notion that jesus dying somehow made homosexuality no longer an abomination to god is pretty nonsensical.

OTOH, rationalism and moral relativism are moving targets. Always will be.

being able to change your mind is a strength, not a weakness.

i'm not really a moral relativist anyway. i believe a form of objective morality (in a practical non-realist sense) emerges as part of evolution.

 

[ABM]

the notion that jesus dying somehow made homosexuality no longer an abomination to god is pretty nonsensical.

Not following you. The Scriptures relate (both, Old and New Testament) that homosexuality is a sin. It says that fornication of any kind is a sin, as well.

 

[crowTrobot]

Not really. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament.

yes really. the only reason christianity is still taken seriously in a modern social context is that most christians ignore or make excuses for the laws and actions of god in the OT. a lot of them ignore Paul's clear implication about homosexuality being a sinful perversion in the NT.

 

[ABM]

a lot of them ignore Paul's clear implication about homosexuality being a sinful perversion in the NT.

I don't.

That said, it's a sin like any other sin is a sin. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) is a sin. So is cheating on your taxes.

 

[crowTrobot]

I don't think that's because of their religious faith, is it?

their religious faith was certainly an enabler. that's true whether the motivation for 911 was religious jihad or not.

 

[magnifier661]

i mean you don't take the parts of the bible that are contradicted by modern morality seriously. you make excuses for them. "oh, that's the old testament, jesus did away with that" is just an excuse. the notion that jesus dying somehow made homosexuality no longer an abomination to god is pretty nonsensical.





being able to change your mind is a strength, not a weakness.

i'm not really a moral relativist anyway. i believe a form of objective morality (in a practical non-realist sense) emerges as part of evolution.

See that's where I dont think u understand. Mankinds first sin was disobedience. That was what damned us to hell. So in reality, that is considered a mortal sin. Disobeying your father, laws or god, it's the same. God is perfect and everything is a mortal sin. A lie, rape, murder, sex without marriage, it's all the same in gods eyes.

So Jesus never said, be saved and go on living a sinful life. But his sacrifice is a gift. He didn't die for part of your sins. He died for all sins. And since he is the alpha and omega, he knew what each of us did before and after salvation.

 

[ABM]

See that's where I dont think u understand. Mankinds first sin was disobedience. That was what damned us to hell. So in reality, that is considered a mortal sin. Disobeying your father, laws or god, it's the same. God is perfect and everything is a mortal sin. A lie, rape, murder, sex without marriage, it's all the same in gods eyes.

So Jesus never said, be saved and go on living a sinful life. But his sacrifice is a gift. He didn't die for part of your sins. He died for all sins. And since he is the alpha and omega, he knew what each of us did before and after salvation.

Preach it, brah! (I didn't know you were a believer.)

 

[magnifier661]

Preach it, brah! (I didn't know you were a believer.)

I was saved July 7th 1987. And that will never be taken away from me. Yes I am.

 

[crowTrobot]

I don't.

ok cool that you're consistent about that, but in current times if every christian went around stating publicly that homosexuality is a sin it wouldn't exist as a mainstream religion for very long.

 

[magnifier661]

Oh and FYI, king David, whom was a man of god sinned countless times. In fact, he was in love with a woman so much, that he sent her husband in the front line of battle to die so he could have her.

 

[magnifier661]

ok cool that you're consistent about that, but in current times if every christian went around stating publicly that homosexuality is a sin it wouldn't exist as a mainstream religion for very long.

Humans are sinners and are never perfect. This is why I can't bank on a religion. Many people use their morals and beliefs to judge the severity of sins. This is wrong. Even Jesus said "the man without sin cast the first stone". Basically saying "who are you to judge others what is right and wrong when you are wrong in the first place?"

So with homosexuality, or other types of sins, it's between that person and god. I can't judge them because I am not god.

 

[crowTrobot]

See that's where I dont think u understand. Mankinds first sin was disobedience. That was what damned us to hell. So in reality, that is considered a mortal sin. Disobeying your father, laws or god, it's the same. God is perfect and everything is a mortal sin. A lie, rape, murder, sex without marriage, it's all the same in gods eyes.

So Jesus never said, be saved and go on living a sinful life. But his sacrifice is a gift. He didn't die for part of your sins. He died for all sins. And since he is the alpha and omega, he knew what each of us did before and after salvation.

yes i know all that. my father was a minister : )

i'm saying a lot of the sins of a moral nature described in leviticus aren't considered sins at all today by most modern christians, who typically say something like "jesus fulfilled the law, so the law changed". that's nonsensical, unless god is just a moral subjectivist who likes to play mind games with humans.

 

[ABM]

ok cool that you're consistent about that, but in current times if every christian went around stating publicly that homosexuality is a sin it wouldn't exist as a mainstream religion for very long.

From what I can tell, God really isn't into "religion". He's into "relationship"...with Christ. It's man that gets all caught-up in that religion thing. God's "church" is a worldwide body of believers....irrespective of what type of Christian denomination they might worship at.

BTW, the Pharisees were into their religion, to a 't'...and we know what Jesus had to say about those cats.

 

[crowTrobot]

So with homosexuality, or other types of sins, it's between that person and god. I can't judge them because I am not god.

that's also nonsensical. you're judging them when you say homosexuality is a sin.

 

[ABM]

I was saved July 7th 1987. And that will never be taken away from me. Yes I am.

Very cool.

Me? I can't remember the exact day, but it was February, 1989. PTL!

 

[magnifier661]

yes i know all that. my father was a minister : )

i'm saying a lot of the sins of a moral nature described in leviticus aren't considered sins at all today by most modern christians, who typically say something like "jesus fulfilled the law, so the law changed". that's nonsensical.

Why? If you reference the old testament, they had to make blood sacrifices to wash their sins on a routin basis. When Jesus said that he died for all sins, he became the final lamb of god. Like I said before, it's not for anyone else to judge, but god. Your holy spirit will give you guidance. The closer you are with god, the easier it is to know right from wrong. But again it's only you. Doesn't matter how close to god you are, you or anyone else can't judge and don't know if one is truly living in sin or living by the blueprint Jesus put before us.

Remember that one of the most respected new testament leaders "Paul" said he was the king of sinners.

 

[crowTrobot]

From what I can tell, God really isn't into "religion". He's into "relationship"...with Christ. It's man that gets all caught-up in that religion thing. God's "church" is a worldwide body of believers....irrespective of what type of Christian denomination they might worship at.

what about a denomination that embraces homosexuality? is that "god's church"?

 

[ABM]

that's also nonsensical. you're judging them when you say homosexuality is a sin.

Homosexuality "is" a sin. I'm guessing here, but Mags may be saying whether (or not) they get ultimately get right with God (through repentance in Christ) is not his place to judge.

 

[magnifier661]

that's also nonsensical. you're judging them when you say homosexuality is a sin.

I am not judging them. I am just stating that in the bible it's referenced as sin. But who am I to judge when my sins are just as bad as anyone else's? I fall way short of the glory of god. My works will never get me into heaven. And a homosexual has just as much right into heaven as I do, if he accepts Christ as his or her savior. No law will take that away.