Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? (1 Viewer)

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i asked my pastor the 6 year old kid question back in the day, and HE said, that they will get their chance to accept god after they die. but it got me thinking.... they have never heard of this person before, why would they just blindly accept him? especially being 6, i would figure they would just be picking their nose and not really grasping the concept.
 
Well, as close to fact other than neither have ever been replicated and/or repeated in a controlled scientific setting.

obviously the big bang can't be replicated, but any theory of the state of the cosmos without a hot big bang is going to have a really tough time explaining the CBR.

genetic change due to environmental selection has been directly observed over and over. it's not a big deal to project this over longer periods of time to speciation, particularly in situations where different populations of a specied become reproductively isolated from each other.

Unless, of course, you've witnessed a secondary Big Bang that gave us all of our natural elements, and all elements found in the universe. I must have missed that one in the latest issue of Nature.

heavier elements originate in supernovae. this is understood quite well. no mystery there.

People like you are as close-minded as the hardcore creationists.

i'm not closed minded at all. i would love to hear a reasonable argument for ID. i just never have.

The pure randonmess of speciation

how is randomness evidence for ID?

and the lack of literally millions of failed new species in the fossil record

there ARE hundreds of thousands of extinct species known from the fossil record. the only reason there aren't millions is the environmental conditions that allow life to fossilize are quite uncommon.

while others are unchanged for literally millions of years

obviously adaptation ability isn't going to be the same for every species. species that have evolved to adapt in different environments are less likely to change phenotypically.

There are even competing theories of speciation, two of them being a gradual process verus the gentetic leap, yet you're convinced that speciation is as close to fact as you get in science?

me? the world's entire scientific community is convinced speciation through common descent is fact, and for reasons that have nothing to do with the mechanism. that the exact details of the mechanism aren't fully understood says nothing about the factuality of common descent.
 
Well, as close to fact other than neither have ever been replicated and/or repeated in a controlled scientific setting.

Unless, of course, you've witnessed a secondary Big Bang that gave us all of our natural elements, and all elements found in the universe. I must have missed that one in the latest issue of Nature.

People like you are as close-minded as the hardcore creationists. The pure randonmess of speciation, and the lack of literally millions of failed new species in the fossil record, is more of an endorsement of intelligent design than it is is some silly theory that some species adapt and change into new species, while others are unchanged for literally millions of years. There are even competing theories of speciation, two of them being a gradual process verus the gentetic leap, yet you're convinced that speciation is as close to fact as you get in science?

I sure hope you don't teach science, because you seem to be terrible at understanding it, and how to prove a scientific law.

This is silly. Of all people who post here, crowtbot is the furthest from being able to understand these sorts of things.

He didn't assert the big bang and genetic selection are fact, just they're the closest thing to fact as anything can scientifically be. The evidence supports these theories, and when new ideas about testing them are tried, they further support these theories.

In fact, when he wrote "some form of environmental genetic selection," he was not picking any specific theory of speciation but pointing out that some forms of speciation are clearly happening.

I've never been a strict believer in Evolution - that life started as some single celled organism and evolved through a slow and steady process of mutation and selection, though. There are numerous catastrophic near life extinction events that occurred that basically hit the reset button on all but a few species each time. A species that has been unchanged for literally millions of years is one that wasn't affected by these extinction events out of pure luck - not anything really to do with the actual theory of Evolution. Sharks have been around for ~400M years. The sharks that existed 400M years ago are extinct, and there are very different sharks around today. They have clearly evolved over time.
 
Sounds like the luckiest people on earth are people who contract terminal diseases and murderers on death row. Both have the opportunity to choose Christ because why not, you're gonna die soon, but an innocent adult healthy person who never chooses Christ and then gets hit by a bus goes to Hell without getting the chance to change his mind.

Also, how do you REALLY choose Christ? Close your eyes, bow your head and talk to yourself? If that's all a guy on Death Row has to do before he dies, why should anyone even go to church or do good deeds? Essentially, you can do whatever you want. Just bow your head and tell yourself you'd like to accept Christ from time to time and you're good.

I was raised Methodist, confirmed in the church, and I'd like to believe, but so much doesn't make sense to me nowadays. How is hell even horrible anyway? Burning is something that would hurt if you took your living body with you but you don't and even if you DID, if you don't die again in hell from all the pain, wouldn't you eventually get used to it? And isn't heaven a form of hell anyway because it too is never ending and thus very boring and torturous in it's monotony of goodness.

The way I look at it is I didn't exist before I was conceived in 1973 and that is where I will return when I die. To a point of not existing. It wasn't awful then. And it won't be awful after I die. I just won't exist. Why should I be scared of that? I'm not scared at all that I didn't exist in the 1960s. It was fine.
 
why is it ludicrous? the bible directly states the majority of people will reject god, so if babies are automatically saved killing everyone as babies is absolutely doing them a huge favor just as a matter of statistics.

another example of christians not really taking the implications of their beliefs seriously.

For one, the Bible clearly states, thou shalt not kill. It's about as rudimentary as it gets.
 
For one, the Bible clearly states, thou shalt not kill. It's about as rudimentary as it gets.

But the bible also justifies killing all over the place. God kills practically everyone with the flood because they all sucked so much. He basically said, "Fuck it. I'm starting over." If it made sense for God to slaughter perhaps millions of people (and who knows how many animals) just so he could set humans on the right path, wouldn't it be doing the same thing by slaughtering babies?
 
But the bible also justifies killing all over the place. God kills practically everyone with the flood because they all sucked so much. He basically said, "Fuck it. I'm starting over." If it made sense for God to slaughter perhaps millions of people (and who knows how many animals) just so he could set humans on the right path, wouldn't it be doing the same thing by slaughtering babies?


If you want to play God, then knock yourself out.
 
If you want to play God, then knock yourself out.

It's not about me. I'm just trying to get an honest answer here. Which is better:
1. Letting people grow up, die, then suffer for eternity in damnation
2. Killing them quickly as children, then letting them live for eternity in heaven

Obviously, human nature says that killing children is wrong. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the logical conclusion that comes with believing the innocent children always go to heaven. If you believe that, the only truly moral thing to do is to sacrifice your own soul by killing a lot of kids.
 
Sounds like the luckiest people on earth are people who contract terminal diseases and murderers on death row. Both have the opportunity to choose Christ because why not, you're gonna die soon, but an innocent adult healthy person who never chooses Christ and then gets hit by a bus goes to Hell without getting the chance to change his mind.

Also, how do you REALLY choose Christ? Close your eyes, bow your head and talk to yourself? If that's all a guy on Death Row has to do before he dies, why should anyone even go to church or do good deeds? Essentially, you can do whatever you want. Just bow your head and tell yourself you'd like to accept Christ from time to time and you're good.

I was raised Methodist, confirmed in the church, and I'd like to believe, but so much doesn't make sense to me nowadays. How is hell even horrible anyway? Burning is something that would hurt if you took your living body with you but you don't and even if you DID, if you don't die again in hell from all the pain, wouldn't you eventually get used to it? And isn't heaven a form of hell anyway because it too is never ending and thus very boring and torturous in it's monotony of goodness.

The way I look at it is I didn't exist before I was conceived in 1973 and that is where I will return when I die. To a point of not existing. It wasn't awful then. And it won't be awful after I die. I just won't exist. Why should I be scared of that? I'm not scared at all that I didn't exist in the 1960s. It was fine.

Exactly. I had this thought when I was a kid. My beliefs on this subject are well documented on this site but one man summed it up nicely about the myth of hell: "We're already in hell."
 
God gave us the ability to reason for one sole purpose: so that we would throw it out the window and accept utterly unreasonable beliefs about God.

Apparently God has a dark and twisted sense of humor.

barfo
 
It's not about me. I'm just trying to get an honest answer here. Which is better:
1. Letting people grow up, die, then suffer for eternity in damnation
2. Killing them quickly as children, then letting them live for eternity in heaven


I think I've read some accounts of parents doing that, as to save their kids from the perils of this world. Would you do that to your kids if you truly felt that was the answer as you've related, above?

I'm not going to even begin to respond as to if this is a legitimate solution to stocking Heaven. It's certainly not what the Bible teaches. To me, it boils down to: a) Am I going to believe/trust in what the Bible teaches me about God, Creation, Jesus, etc.? b) If so, then I'm going to believe all of it. It would make no sense to me to pick and choose portions of it, then create my "own" belief system from that. If that were going to be the case, then I wouldn't waste my time believing "any" of it. I mean, why bother? What a waste of time.

That said, my parents, and many others tried to show the way to salvation to me as I was growing up,,,,and into adulthood. I wanted no part of it. However, when God got hold of me (while alone.....in my house), it was a slam-dunk. It is what it is and there's nothing, nor anyone that will convince me otherwise. God is very real to me and i couldn't imagine myself ever living apart from Him again. He's given me indescribable joy and peace in this life.....no matter the curve balls that have been thrown my way.
 
I don't find much about an "age of accountability."

To answer your question about killing children quickly, I don't know that that's in keeping with God's purpose. From the children's catechism:

Q. Who made you? God.
Q. What else did God make? All things.
Q. Why did God make you and all things? For His own glory.

I don't know why it is, just that it is, that God created us for His own glory. It's the literal of the comic "I brought you into this world, I can take you out." If you're looking for philosophy we can discuss that, but the tenets of the Christian religion (according to the pretty strict view of the Bible I take) state what I showed above--namely, that a perfectly just and perfectly holy God chooses who will live with Him in eternity, that Jesus had to die (the propitiation of the sin all of us are born with and continue to live in) so that those chosen could be holy enough to dwell with God, and that no one chosen is kept out.

Another way of looking at it is that God created men and angels. Both rebelled. God didn't set up a way for angels to return to heaven. He did set up a way (why? I don't know!) for some people to be reconciled, through the death of Jesus.
 
I think I've read some accounts of parents doing that, as to save their kids from the perils of this world. Would you do that to your kids if you truly felt that was the answer as you've related, above?

This question needs to be flipped around and proposed to you, the one making assertions about this insane belief system. If your children disobeyed you, would you torture them with fire?
 
This question needs to be flipped around and proposed to you, the one making assertions about this insane belief system. If your children disobeyed you, would you torture them with fire?

Like I said, above, either I trust the Scriptures in their entirety, or not at all. I choose the former. Therefore, I don't question God.
 
I am sort of agnostic but I am a spiritual person.

Whether God exists or not, the Bible cannot be taken seriously though imo.

Well, as close to fact other than neither have ever been replicated and/or repeated in a controlled scientific setting.

Unless, of course, you've witnessed a secondary Big Bang that gave us all of our natural elements, and all elements found in the universe. I must have missed that one in the latest issue of Nature.

People like you are as close-minded as the hardcore creationists. The pure randonmess of speciation, and the lack of literally millions of failed new species in the fossil record, is more of an endorsement of intelligent design than it is is some silly theory that some species adapt and change into new species, while others are unchanged for literally millions of years. There are even competing theories of speciation, two of them being a gradual process verus the gentetic leap, yet you're convinced that speciation is as close to fact as you get in science?

I sure hope you don't teach science, because you seem to be terrible at understanding it, and how to prove a scientific law.

I understand the reasoning behind the Big Bang. The Universe is expanding at rate that is faster than the speed of light.

For instance, if you were an immortal traveling through space at 299792458 m/s, you would still never reach the edge of the Universe.
 
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I don't find much about an "age of accountability."

To answer your question about killing children quickly, I don't know that that's in keeping with God's purpose. From the children's catechism:

Q. Who made you? God.
Q. What else did God make? All things.
Q. Why did God make you and all things? For His own glory.

I don't know why it is, just that it is, that God created us for His own glory. It's the literal of the comic "I brought you into this world, I can take you out." If you're looking for philosophy we can discuss that, but the tenets of the Christian religion (according to the pretty strict view of the Bible I take) state what I showed above--namely, that a perfectly just and perfectly holy God chooses who will live with Him in eternity, that Jesus had to die (the propitiation of the sin all of us are born with and continue to live in) so that those chosen could be holy enough to dwell with God, and that no one chosen is kept out.

Another way of looking at it is that God created men and angels. Both rebelled. God didn't set up a way for angels to return to heaven. He did set up a way (why? I don't know!) for some people to be reconciled, through the death of Jesus.


nice sermon but it has absolutely zero to do with mook's point.
 
nice sermon but it has absolutely zero to do with mook's point.

One thing's clear to me: This place is heaven compared to the hell over yonder @ bbb.net. (does that place still exist?)

Thanks to you, we're all over here now. :)
 
I think I've read some accounts of parents doing that, as to save their kids from the perils of this world. Would you do that to your kids if you truly felt that was the answer as you've related, above?


nobody would because nobody (sane) would take the full implications of christian doctrine seriously. it's too easy to selectively interpret the bible to fit your own secular morals and common sense.
 
nice sermon but it has absolutely zero to do with mook's point.

That's where you're wrong. His point was that "children are innocent, so why not kill them early?" The Bible states that that isn't God's purpose (and there's no "human nature" about it...God says not to do it, and humans of other religions did) and that that isn't how He set up a way for people to get into heaven.

Thanks for the compliment, though. :)
 
One thing's clear to me: This place is heaven compared to the hell over yonder @ bbb.net. (does that place still exist?)

Thanks to you, we're all over here now. :)


? you're confusing me with someone else i think. we're over here because the mods there were acting like nazis, and i was never a mod there.
 
That's where you're wrong. His point was that "children are innocent, so why not kill them early?" The Bible states that that isn't God's purpose (and there's no "human nature" about it...God says not to do it, and humans of other religions did) and that that isn't how He set up a way for people to get into heaven.


obviously it's not god's purpose for you. mook was talking about giving up your chance at heaven to make sure your children get there. and there's no reason to restrict it to just your children. as long as you're gonna sacrifice yourself you might as well start fire bombing maternity wards.
 
? you're confusing me with someone else i think. we're over here because the mods there were acting like nazis, and I was never a mod there.

Way back in September, 2008 I saw a post on the fuge you had made about this place. (It was at the same time bbb.net was blowing up with the over-modding, etc.)

I decided to check it out. Looked great to me. I then set out on a personal campaign to drag as many bbb.netters over here that I possibly could. Naturally, I (and many others) was banned for life over there.

I suppose the rest is history.
 
Way back in September, 2008 I saw a post on the fuge you had made about this place. (It was at the same time bbb.net was blowing up with the over-modding, etc.)

I decided to check it out. Looked great to me. I then set out on a personal campaign to drag as many bbb.netters over here that I possibly could. Naturally, I (and many others) was banned for life over there.

I suppose the rest is history.


oh ok. yeah i remember trying to get people to check S2 out. i guess it is partially my fault we're here : )
 
carlin has a nice take on it

" Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! :lol: He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!"
 
just they're the closest thing to fact as anything can scientifically be. .

Never before witnessed, no modern day examples, and accepted as close to fact anyhow.

I guess Bigfoot exists as well, based on that logic.

The lack of understanding of the scientific method by some of you should embarrass you, but it doesn't/won't.

Hey, there was a big explosion that gave birth to the universe! Where did the materials to cause that explosion come from ... ah, nevermind. It really happened!!!
 
I am sort of agnostic but I am a spiritual person.

Whether God exists or not, the Bible cannot be taken seriously though imo.



I understand the reasoning behind the Big Bang. The Universe is expanding at rate that is faster than the speed of light.

For instance, if you were an immortal traveling through space at 299792458 m/s, you would still never reach the edge of the Universe.

Where is the edge of the universe? What exists outside of the edge of the universe?

Lots of theory seems to be accepted as fact.
 
obviously it's not god's purpose for you. mook was talking about giving up your chance at heaven to make sure your children get there. and there's no reason to restrict it to just your children. as long as you're gonna sacrifice yourself you might as well start fire bombing maternity wards.

You keep posting words like "obviously", "clearly", etc. etc., yet none of this discussion is obvious, nor is it clear. I'm guessing you think you're sounding smart, but you're at Level One, and this discussion is at least at Level 3.
 
Heaven and Hell - Yes
Damnation for 6 year olds -No

As most of you know, I'm LDS (Mormon). From what I understand of other faiths, we have a unique view on salvation as it relates to young children.

While it is true children can be mischievous and in some instances down-right evil, Satan has no power to tempt them until they begin to become accountable. (Doctrine & Covenants 29:46-47). That means they have no reason to repent or be baptized until they reach the age of accountability. That has been determined to be 8 years old. (D&C 68:25-27) Why 8? I don’t really know; although studies have shown that that is the age at which most children really begin to understand the concept of right and wrong and are capable of making choices based on their own reasoned thoughts. At any rate, all children who die before the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom. (D&C 137:10)

It should probably also be mentioned “that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” (Article of Faith 1:2) Essentially, that means that I reject the concept of original sin. Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)

To address other concerns expressed in this thread, additional explanation seems necessary. This issue directly relates to what happens to us when we die.

We're told several times in the scriptures that faith in Christ is essential for salvation. We also believe we have to show our faith by our works. (See James 2:17-18). One of the ways in which we do this is by following Christ's example and being baptized, but I’ll come back to that in a second.

The fall of Adam and Eve created two distinct kinds of death: spiritual and physical. Physical is obvious – we all die. Spiritual death is the separation from God we experience when we sin. Christ’s atonement unequivocally overcame the physical death through his death and resurrection. All will be resurrected regardless of their level of righteousness (whatever you consider to be righteousness).

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:” (Job 19:26)

Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

When we die, our physical bodies are separated from our spirits (souls?). Our physical body is obviously discarded in whatever manner is chosen, but our spirits go to what is probably most easily described as a waiting room as they await their resurrection and final judgment. There is a separation between those who accepted the gospel and those who have not. Essentially, there’s a great deal of missionary work being done so that those who never had the opportunity or those who as of yet have rejected the gospel still have to opportunity to accept or reject Christ as their Savior. It is here that the faith in Christ requirement can be fulfilled by those who haven’t had to opportunity to accept it. (See D&C 138:30-35) This is a natural segue into the doctrine of baptism for (or in behalf of) the dead.

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” 1 Corinthians 15:29

As I’ve already stated, baptism is a requirement for salvation in addition to faith in Christ. Baptism by proxy enables those that have died without having been baptized and no longer have physical bodies with which to be baptized (at least they don’t in their current state) to receive the necessary ordinance of baptism. This is one of the ordinances performed in LDS temples and it is done by the sealing power mentioned throughout the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. (e.g. Matt. 16:19 – “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”)

To be clear, those who die before the age of accountability do not go through this process. They are saved through Christ’s atonement unequivocally. As stated above, they are incapable of sin and therefore have no need to repent and be baptized.

As it relates to Hell, “Hell” is not weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because of a literal burning as it seems most here have indicated that it is. Hell is the emotional pain we feel from being separated from God’s presence for eternity. It is a state of mind knowing what could have been had that person been more obedient. Our choices damn us, God doesn't. There is another thread in here where I discuss the concept of degrees of glory, so I won’t make this post any longer by including that here. Sufficient to say, while “Hell” will not be pleasant, it won’t be because those there are being physically tortured.
 
Where is the edge of the universe? What exists outside of the edge of the universe?

How do you know you exist? How do you know that you won't be killed if someone points a picture of a gun at your name?

barfo
 

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