Do you believe in Heaven and Hell?

[MadeFromDust]

really? carbon dating must be wrong huh?

I already have given my opinion on carbon dating. Discoveries like these are few and far inbetween, and there is no way to objectively verify whether or not they are accurate. There was a study done once where they separated a fossil of a dead animal into two and sent them to different labs for studying. One lab claimed the remains were 10,000 years old and the other claimed they were 20,000 years old. They can't both be right, but they can both be wrong. The fact that Biblical archaeology is flawless makes me more inclined to believe what the Bible says over man-made carbon dating. Oh, and one thing I haven't even mentioned yet: I have experienced the healing power of God in my own life, things that are beyond explanation. Prayer works, one with faith makes prayer a very powerful tool. I wasn't always a believer either so don't expect me to be biased.

 

[crowTrobot]

There were an awful lot of flat earth believers. =\

not among people who actually applied science to the subject there weren't.

 

[MadeFromDust]

you're asking about things that are common knowledge. you're free to research this stuff if you want to. start by googling age of the earth.

Sure, men who are born in the latter part of the 20th century know for a fact that the earth is billions of years old. Of course, we have carbon dating!

men have been wrong. nothing that has reached the level of scientific consensus that evolution or the age of the earth or no global flood in biblical times have has ever been proven wrong.

Actually yes, they have. Many, many times actually. There is no 'consensus', they are still just theories. As time continues to move forward they will only stay that way.

pascal's wager is just stupid, and we're not strictly arguing about the truth of christianity here - just the historicity of genesis and exodus, since you said nothing in the bible has ever been disproven.

Stupid or not, it's true. If I'm wrong (which I'm literally 100% sure I'm not), then not a conscious thought will pass through my mind after I die to know if I'm wrong. It's just a matter of what you choose to put your faith in. Have you gone out and studied the evidence both ways, or are you just taking someones word for it?

 

[Eastoff]

I have experienced the healing power of God in my own life, things that are beyond explanation. Prayer works, one with faith makes prayer a very powerful tool. I wasn't always a believer either so don't expect me to be biased.

that's interesting.

With $666,000 in federal research money, scientists examined whether distant prayer could heal AIDS. It could not.

http://www.hillmanfoundation.org/bl...and-intercessory-prayer-your-tax-dollars-work

 

[Eastoff]

I already have given my opinion on carbon dating. Discoveries like these are few and far inbetween, and there is no way to objectively verify whether or not they are accurate. There was a study done once where they separated a fossil of a dead animal into two and sent them to different labs for studying. One lab claimed the remains were 10,000 years old and the other claimed they were 20,000 years old. They can't both be right, but they can both be wrong.

By that logic, let's examine your suggestion and mine. 77000/4000 ~=20. Have you come across any examples of carbon dating being 20 times inaccurate?

 

[MadeFromDust]

that's interesting.

http://www.hillmanfoundation.org/bl...and-intercessory-prayer-your-tax-dollars-work

Matthew 4:7

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

God is not some genie in a bottle who must bow down to the wims of mankind. Put a study to God and don't expect your prayers to be answered.

 

[MadeFromDust]

By that logic, let's examine your suggestion and mine. 77000/4000 ~=20. Have you come across any examples of carbon dating being 20 times inaccurate?

I personally believe that carbon dating is hardly accurate at all. 4,000 years is a LONG time believe it or not. Weather and conditions can do a lot to affect to the appearance of ancient items (exposure to salt water for example. Global flood anyone?) It's not a proven hypothesis nor will it ever be imo.

 

[PapaG]

e=mc^2 is related to matter being created.

Huh? Sure, but not how it is created, which is the point here.

 

[Eastoff]

Matthew 4:7


God is not some genie in a bottle who must bow down to the wims of mankind. Put a study to God and don't expect your prayers to be answered.

what is your opinion then of this?

a representative of the Society of Blessed Kateri visited him. She gave his mother a pendant with Kateri's image on it. Elsa Finkbonner placed it on her son's pillow

That is not GOD directly doing the work. Did their power of prayer go through despite worshiping false profits?

 

[Eastoff]

Huh?

energy and mass are equivalent. mass can be created from energy.

 

[Eastoff]

energy and mass are equivalent. mass can be created from energy.

How is it created? Well the photons collide into each other and then matter appears in it's place moving in opposite directions.

 

[MadeFromDust]

what is your opinion then of this? That is not GOD directly doing the work. Did their power of prayer go through despite worshiping false profits?

Glancing through that article, that seems like genuine faith healing to me. Where did they tempt or mock God?

 

[Eastoff]

Glancing through that article, that seems like genuine faith healing to me. Where did they tempt or mock God?

They invoked a dead religious figure that was not god. Who will soon become a saint. I thought any icons that were not purely god were against "true christians" What is your believe on the virgin mary? is it okay to pray to the blessed mother to intervene?

 

[PapaG]

energy and mass are equivalent. mass can be created from energy.

I know this, but we don't know how mass is created from energy, and vice versa. Denny's post still makes no sense to me, although I admit at this point, there are so many tangents in this thread at the moment, I'm not sure what exactly it's about anymore.

 

[PapaG]

How is it created? Well the photons collide into each other and then matter appears in it's place moving in opposite directions.

yeah, simple as that. Now go and make me some matter! Enough to fill a universe.

Of course, that brings up the question of where the energy came from...

 

[MadeFromDust]

They invoked a dead religious figure that was not god. Who will soon become a saint. I thought any icons that were not purely god were against "true christians" What is your believe on the virgin mary? is it okay to pray to the blessed mother to intervene?

Were they praying to the idol expecting it to heal him, or were they praying to God?

"Donny and I went off to the chapel and just surrendered Jake back to God," she recalls. "We just said, 'God, he is yours. Thy will be done, and if it is your will to take him home, then so be it.' "

 

[Eastoff]

I know this, but we don't know how mass is created from energy, and vice versa. Denny's post still makes no sense to me, although I admit at this point, there are so many tangents in this thread at the moment, I'm not sure what exactly it's about anymore.

Well to say "There is no big bang." Then change to "Well where did the matter come from?" then to change to "well HOW did the matter change from matter to energy?" is a lot of offensive questions, and not letting up on accepting with more time and data collecting more answers will come. If super string theory gets more data proof (yet to go for or against really based on data) then the how and the what was before could be answered.

 

[barfo]

I personally believe that carbon dating is hardly accurate at all. 4,000 years is a LONG time believe it or not. Weather and conditions can do a lot to affect to the appearance of ancient items (exposure to salt water for example. Global flood anyone?) It's not a proven hypothesis nor will it ever be imo.

Carbon dating doesn't depend upon the appearance of items.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

Well to say "There is no big bang." Then change to "Well where did the matter come from?" then to change to "well HOW did the matter change from matter to energy?" is a lot of offensive questions, and not letting up on accepting with more time and data collecting more answers will come. If super string theory gets more data proof (yet to go for or against really based on data) then the how and the what was before could be answered.

I never said there was no Big Bang. I'm asking for definitive scientific proof that there was a Big Bang. I think you misunderstood my position in the thread.

 

[Eastoff]

Were they praying to the idol expecting it to heal him, or were they praying to God?

and you are taking this out of context just like you claimed so many nonbelievers do in quoting the bible. the child clearly did not get better UNTIL they started praying to the native american religious figure. They had given up on him and left the idol there.

 

[crowTrobot]

Sure, men who are born in the latter part of the 20th century know for a fact that the earth is billions of years old. Of course, we have carbon dating!

"carbon" dating has nothing to do with how the age of the earth is determined. the evidence is mainly radiometric and geologic. and again it means nothing to you that every working geologist in the world agrees that the earth is billions of years old? do you think geology just exists to be a giant anti-YEC conspiracy or something?

Actually yes

actually no. no true scientific consensus - that is something that is considered above question within the entire scientific community, such as is the case with the age of the earth being in the billions - has ever been disproven.

Stupid or not, it's true. If I'm wrong (which I'm literally 100% sure I'm not), then not a conscious thought will pass through my mind after I die to know if I'm wrong. It's just a matter of what you choose to put your faith in.

what if you pick the wrong religion? what if it turns out god rewards atheism/agnosticism and punishes belief based on faith?

Have you gone out and studied the evidence both ways, or are you just taking someones word for it?

there's not much to study in terms of creation story, flood story etc. you either believe science is objective or you have to believe it's a giant conspiracy.

i've studied what is known from archeology during the period of the bibilical exodus thoroughly.

 

[MadeFromDust]

They invoked a dead religious figure that was not god. Who will soon become a saint. I thought any icons that were not purely god were against "true christians" What is your believe on the virgin mary? is it okay to pray to the blessed mother to intervene?

So because they prayed to God with faith and the boy healed means that God didn't answer that prayer and the lifeless idol was responsible for curing him? I'm not sure what your point is...

 

[crowTrobot]

although I admit at this point, there are so many tangents in this thread at the moment, I'm not sure what exactly it's about anymore.

yeah i'm getting a headache trying to work and follow it all at the same time

 

[MadeFromDust]

"carbon" dating has nothing to do with how the age of the earth is determined. the evidence is mainly radiometric and geologic. and again it means nothing to you that every working geologist in the world agrees that the earth is billions of years old? do you think geology just exists to be a giant anti-YEC conspiracy or something?

I have my own opinions as to why people choose to reject the Biblical count of creation, but fallible knowledge of mankind is the main reason why I don't buy into it. According to the Bible the wisdom of mankind is utter foolishness to God and men will forever try to reach enlightenment but will never succeed. You look at science and biology books from 50 to 100 years ago and virtually everything is different. 50-100 years from now that will be the same case and on and on until the end of time. Do you really think mankind will ever discover truth? No chance. Plus, there are many Christians who believe the Genesis story and that the earth is billions of years old. Not that they are right or anything, but it doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. In my opinion, the secular viewpoint of the creation of the world/universe opens up a can of worms far greater than anything the Bible claims.

actually no. no true scientific consensus - that is something that is considered above question within the entire scientific community, such as is the case with the age of the earth being in the billions - has ever been disproven.

Get back to me in 100 years.

what if you pick the wrong religion? what if it turns out god rewards atheism/agnosticism and punishes belief based on faith?

Well I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take. Everything I've learned so far confirms what I believe about God.

there's not much to study in terms of creation story, flood story etc. you either believe science is objective or you have to believe it's a giant conspiracy.

i've studied what is known from archeology during the period of the bibilical exodus thoroughly.

Science has more materials to go from because there are a lot more THEORIES from a lot more DIFFERENT people. The Bible on the other hand is one, unchanging source. Does that make it not true? no. For the record I'm not saying science is bad, but science that attempts to explain godless origins is what I disagree with.

 

[Eastoff]

I never said there was no Big Bang. I'm asking for definitive scientific proof that there was a Big Bang. I think you misunderstood my position in the thread.

I think the proof is the smoking gun. That the universe is expanding outward, directly suggests that at some point it was all close together. Just because you can't go back in time and watch someone fire a gun, doesn't mean they didn't fire the gun. You can test their hand for traces of evidence, right? The expansion of the universe is the same thing.

 

[Eastoff]

So because they prayed to God with faith and the boy healed means that God didn't answer that prayer and the lifeless idol was responsible for curing him? I'm not sure what your point is...

the fact that he wasn't healed when they prayed to god, but that he was healed when they placed the idol.

 

[MadeFromDust]

the fact that he wasn't healed when they prayed to god, but that he was healed when they placed the idol.

God has waited years to answer my prayers before, but when it happened you just knew it was in His will. God does everything on His own timing. Because God waited to heal him does not mean the idol they placed next to him had anything to do with it. You're reaching here imo.

 

[Eastoff]

God has waited years to answer my prayers before, but when it happened you just knew it was in His will. God does everything on His own timing. Because God waited to heal him does not mean the idol they placed next to him had anything to do with it. You're reaching here imo.

This argue is the worst. "God works in his own time frame." it's the basically the same as "God has his own plan you can't understand." God is basically the same thing as Kim Jung Il, a dictator. Do as I say OR ELSE! Follow my rules and worship only me OR ELSE! Did god get 18 hole in ones the first time he played golf too?

 

[crowTrobot]

I have my own opinions as to why people choose to reject the Biblical count of creation, but fallible knowledge of mankind is the main reason why I don't buy into it. According to the Bible the wisdom of mankind is utter foolishness to God and men will forever try to reach enlightenment but will never succeed. You look at science and biology books from 50 to 100 years ago and virtually everything is different. 50-100 years from now that will be the same case and on and on until the end of time. Do you really think mankind will ever discover truth? No chance. Plus, there are many Christians who believe the Genesis story and that the earth is billions of years old. Not that they are right or anything, but it doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. In my opinion, the secular viewpoint of the creation of the world/universe opens up a can of worms far greater than anything the Bible claims.

obviously it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, almost 1/2 of US christians believe in evolution. that's why i can't fathom why YEC's are so quick to reject science. it certainly seems like an issue of egocentrism or something.

Get back to me in 100 years.

it's been a thousand since the scientific method was fully realized. another 100 won't matter.

Well I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take.

well yeah, but pascal's wager doesn't really help you much then. no reason to mention it.

Science has more materials to go from because there are a lot more THEORIES from a lot more DIFFERENT people. The Bible on the other hand is one, unchanging source. Does that make it not true? no. For the record I'm not saying science is bad, but science that attempts to explain godless origins it what I disagree with.

we're just talking about science contradicting a literal interpretation of stories in the torah. you're free to draw any implications you want from that, but it's not the purpose of science to 'explain godless origins'. that's not it's concern really.

 

[MadeFromDust]

This argue is the worst. "God works in his own time frame." it's the basically the same as "God has his own plan you can't understand." God is basically the same thing as Kim Jung Il, a dictator. Do as I say OR ELSE! Follow my rules and worship only me OR ELSE! Did god get 18 hole in ones the first time he played golf too?

No offense, but trying to explain the works of God to someone who doesn't know God is like trying to describe colors to a blind man. God's lowest thoughts are beyond our comprehension. And yes, He does everything for His reason and purpose. God gave us free will, so no He is not a dictator. But we WILL be held accountable for our actions and realize that there is no neutral ground. You're either for Him or against Him. There is no other. This is basic Christian theology.