Do you think the NBA playoffs are rigged?

[huevonkiller]

Specific? Just watch Cavs during the playoffs and you'll see what I mean.

Ok great comeback there......... Lol. :]

No I can't even process that.

 

[STOMP]

I think people get angry when their teams lose in the playoffs and make up excuses. Sometimes they may have a point, but pretty much they deserved to lose. An entire series is hard to affect.

sometimes posters claim one thing when the facts are completely different and then stick to their story regardless of others setting them straight. For instance, there was this one poster who thought Donaghy didn't implicate that officials purposely help *some* teams win playoff series when very clearly he did by many reports including United States court records. TD had (of course) gone into great detail on how and why this was done. While some of his revelations seemed akin to the Vermont cops in the movie Sooper Troopers, a lot was just about pleasing the NBA overlords in ways that obviously undermined the validity of game and playoff results. He spoke to how easily and often this was done. After this poster was pointed out how completely wrong they were about their presumptions, rather then addressing the facts, laughably they just ratcheted up their language to claim that those fans who don't like the game results are bitter and dilutional.... true story!

STOMP

 

[huevonkiller]

sometimes posters claim one thing when the facts are completely different and then stick to their story regardless of others setting them straight. For instance, there was this one poster who thought Donaghy didn't implicate that officials purposely help *some* teams win playoff series when very clearly he did by many reports including United States court records. TD had (of course) gone into great detail on how and why this was done. While some of his revelations seemed akin to the Vermont cops in the movie Sooper Troopers, a lot was just about pleasing the NBA overlords in ways that obviously undermined the validity of game and playoff results. After this poster was pointed out how completely wrong they were about their presumptions, rather then addressing the facts, laughably they just ratcheted up their language to claim that those fans who don't like the game results are bitter and dilutional.... true story!

STOMP

There is nothing wrong with my previous post, I wonder how anyone could argue that whiny fans exist? I am not "completely" wrong and I'm not sure you even understand my position. You should look into those words a bit more carefully.

First, I am taking the same position Minstrel is. I'm not quite sure you realize this or if you just felt like singling me out. I think spreads are affected but to change the outcome of a playoff series would be difficult. I don't need a link telling me there is bias in the NBA, more specifically tell me which series were changed by bogus calls. LeBron James is the face of the league and could have easily carried his team to the Finals with two more ref calls in 2009. If you want to insinuate that there is some kind of malicious rigging of the NBA I sincerely doubt it.



For every 2002 WCF Game 6 there's a game 5 Sac fans won't bring up. Or a Game 2 in the 2008 NBA Finals. The NBA ref system is certainly flawed I never said it wasn't, but it goes both ways in a series.


"I think people get angry when their teams lose in the playoffs and make up excuses. Sometimes they may have a point, but pretty much they deserved to lose. An entire series is hard to affect." Wow what a radical comment? People get upset and make various accusations. If there isn't a weird FT disparity I don't even bring up refs.

 

[SnakeOiler]

Could you be more specific? You're just making accusations no one is going to take that seriously.

How do you know what everyone thinks? Very unlikely.

I think the entire NBA is rigged. Its WWF with a leather ball. There is plenty of evidence if you care to look around a bit. Even if there is only a fraction of truth in the stories, the NBA's credibility is negatively effected. Stick your head in the sand if you want.

 

[huevonkiller]

How do you know what everyone thinks? Very unlikely.

I think the entire NBA is rigged. Its WWF with a leather ball. There is plenty of evidence if you care to look around a bit. Even if there is only a fraction of truth in the stories, the NBA's credibility is negatively effected. Stick your head in the sand if you want.

Right that was an assumption, but I based it off his posting history. CK seems to enjoy complaining about the Cavs whenever he can. He also calls out other players when they lack courtesy, but fails to recognize that KG might be a punk. I want to see when he contradicts himself by asking more questions.

How do I know you have legit beef and are not just upset though? A game can be officiated incorrectly, but fans never seem to consider that the other team gets screwed as well. Incompetent officiating is not always "rigging" a game, which is another thing to consider.

 

[jlprk]

Observe playoff fouls protecting Laker centers. They recur in nonrandom flurries, casting the opponent team out of the game. It happened this week. A curious phenomenon I first noticed when Divac couldn't stay in the game against Shaq, but that probably predates that and had simply escaped my observation.

 

[STOMP]

I'm not quite sure you realize this or if you just felt like singling me out. I think spreads are affected but to change the outcome of a playoff series would be difficult. I don't need a link telling me there is bias in the NBA...

I "singled you out" because you were completely wrong about what Donaghy alleged. He claimed that changing game/series results is done easily and often and gave detailed examples of how and why. Apparently you want to play ostrich/stay oblivious and refuse to read up on the links I provided... while thats a choice you're free to make, it's hardly an informed one. It seems you're turning a purposeful blind eye to evidence that casts your rooting interests accomplishments in doubt.

My eyes told me this sort of stuff preceded Donaghy's outing by more then a decade as it's seemed pretty obvious that something was arye with game manipulation. I'll give you a specific famous example of officiating affecting series outcome. Game 7 2000 WCF, Portland up double digits entering the 4th. Shaq largely silent through 3 quarters as he can't bully Sabonis who only has 3 fouls. Predictably AS picks up his final 3 fouls in 2 minutes of action, twice for being elbowed in the face and neck while set and awaiting Shaq's bull rush. I say predictably because thats what I told the friend I was watching the game with would happen as the quarter started... that all the whistles would go one way.

STOMP

 

[huevonkiller]

I "singled you out" because you were completely wrong about what Donaghy alleged. He claimed that changing game/series results is done easily and often and gave detailed examples of how and why. Apparently you want to play ostrich/stay oblivious and refuse to read up on the links I provided... while thats a choice you're free to make, it's hardly an informed one. It seems you're turning a purposeful blind eye to evidence that casts your rooting interests accomplishments in doubt.

My eyes told me this sort of stuff preceded Donaghy's outing by more then a decade as it's seemed pretty obvious that something was arye with game manipulation. I'll give you a specific famous example of officiating affecting series outcome. Game 7 2000 WCF, Portland up double digits entering the 4th. Shaq largely silent through 3 quarters as he can't bully Sabonis who only has 3 fouls. Predictably AS picks up his final 3 fouls in 2 minutes of action, twice for being elbowed in the face and neck while set and awaiting Shaq's bull rush. I say predictably because thats what I told the friend I was watching the game with would happen as the quarter started... that all the whistles would go one way.

STOMP

So? Crying fans exist everywhere (Los Angeles, Portland, name the place), only in some instances might there be series that were altered. In general fans don't consider the calls the opposing team got screwed on and are selfish. There is bias towards both teams usually throughout a series, yet I hear complaining about refs in pretty much every loss.

Your link was mainly about star treatment and point shaving. TD brought up the flaws of ref crews but you fail to account for various other factors. Preferential treatment in a playoff series is not one-sided and different ref crews are used. That's not changing the outcome of a series which is what I have been referring to, along with others here.Much of it was worthless and I don't want to read a wall of off-topic stuff. Highlight the specific instances next time.

You have to at least address this topic on a case by case basis. Portland-LA 2000 series: 225 Free throws to 204 Free throws. Not exactly an all-time differential. Shaq and Kobe had 12 free throws each and played 47 minutes in that last game.

 

[CelticKing]

Right that was an assumption, but I based it off his posting history. CK seems to enjoy complaining about the Cavs whenever he can. He also calls out other players when they lack courtesy, but fails to recognize that KG might be a punk. I want to see when he contradicts himself by asking more questions.

How do I know you have legit beef and are not just upset though? A game can be officiated incorrectly, but fans never seem to consider that the other team gets screwed as well. Incompetent officiating is not always "rigging" a game, which is another thing to consider.

I'm not complaining dude, I'm just speaking the truth, now if it hurts because I'm a Celtics fan, then that's your problem buddy, but don't tell me the Cavs (because of LeBron) don't get special treatment from the refs + league officials. (including Stern)

 

[huevonkiller]

I'm not complaining dude, I'm just speaking the truth, now if it hurts because I'm a Celtics fan, then that's your problem buddy, but don't tell me the Cavs (because of LeBron) don't get special treatment from the refs + league officials. (including Stern)

How do I know you're not just complaining? When you're vague that's not my problem buddy.

 

[CelticKing]

How do I know you're not just complaining? When you're vague that's not my problem buddy.

I would be complaining if my team lost series after series due to refs screwing up games, but they haven't lost, even with all the crap going on, and it's not just against my team, Cavs get calls versus any team in the league, including LA, (which that's another story, they're just behind Cleveland in getting calls).

I still don't understand why you're doing so much defending for Cavs and LeBron, maybe you're a closet fan of him, who knows.

 

[huevonkiller]

I would be complaining if my team lost series after series due to refs screwing up games, but they haven't lost, even with all the crap going on, and it's not just against my team, Cavs get calls versus any team in the league, including LA, (which that's another story, they're just behind Cleveland in getting calls).

I still don't understand why you're doing so much defending for Cavs and LeBron, maybe you're a closet fan of him, who knows.

Ok but you need to realize your defense is: "watch the game, they get calls". That's not a very detailed argument.

I certainly enjoy watching the best, that is true.

 

[Shapecity]

My curiosity is piqued. Do you mind elaborating?

Here's one collection of data.

http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/nba/referees/referees.html

Gamblers have been making money off officiating crews for a long time. The NBA had to stop announcing the officiating crews prior to tipoff because of this.

There's been some other independent studies that also track referee biases. Let me see if they're still available on ESPN Insider.

 

[CelticKing]

^ I said watch the games because I don't have the tools to record the games, and then dissect every part where bad calls are made and then upload them somewhere like youtube and finally post it here. (trust me I would do it, if I had a way to hook up the tv to computer, and had the program for that lol)

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

Here's one collection of data.

http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/nba/referees/referees.html

Gamblers have been making money off officiating crews for a long time. The NBA had to stop announcing the officiating crews prior to tipoff because of this.

There's been some other independent studies that also track referee biases. Let me see if they're still available on ESPN Insider.

Awesome. Thanks!

 

[Shapecity]

I like Wizard Mentor's analogy. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy orchestrated by the NBA higher ups, corporate sponsors, owners etc., but I feel the game is rigged to favor certain players and correspondingly certain teams.

 

[STOMP]

So? Crying fans exist everywhere (Los Angeles, Portland, name the place), only in some instances might there be series that were altered. In general fans don't consider the calls the opposing team got screwed on and are selfish. There is bias towards both teams usually throughout a series, yet I hear complaining about refs in pretty much every loss.

accept for the some instances part, I'd agree with this. If officials are purposely altering some game results by league decree, pandora's box is open and all results are questionable.

Start with this truth, the star system is complete BS existing only to slant the results. Traveling is traveling, a foul is a foul... etc. end of story.

Your link was mainly about star treatment and point shaving.

I've relayed several links... I don't know how you could miss what I'm referring to unless it was on purpose

TD brought up the flaws of ref crews but you fail to account for various other factors. Preferential treatment in a playoff series is not one-sided and different ref crews are used. That's not changing the outcome of a series which is what I have been referring to, along with others here.Much of it was worthless and I don't want to read a wall of off-topic stuff. Highlight the specific instances next time.

You have to at least address this topic on a case by case basis. Portland-LA 2000 series: 225 Free throws to 204 Free throws. Not exactly an all-time differential. Shaq and Kobe had 12 free throws each and played 47 minutes in that last game.

Just a silly summation of officiating bias and (after asking for it) you skirted my addressing my example. It's not just the amount of calls that are made over a 7 game series that can affect a series outcome (of course ) it's who they are made on, when they are made, and when one side knows that they can go UFC while the other team is called for ticky tacks. If the last part happens to be in the last Q of game 7, thats a pretty clear advantage for that team to advance.

as of this post 44% of those that responded think there is a real possibility that the playoffs are at least somewhat rigged. After the latest Donaghy comments I bet that some who voted on the other side would reconsider.

STOMP

 

[huevonkiller]

accept for the some instances part, I'd agree with this. If officials are purposely altering some game results by league decree, pandora's box is open and all results are questionable.

Start with this truth, the star system is complete BS existing only to slant the results. Traveling is traveling, a foul is a foul... etc. end of story.

Um I don't know, in general this thread has been pretty broad with the accusations and details. Stars get preferential treatment, but to what magnitude and in which games? Generally elite NBA Teams MUST have stars/superstars and that causes more people like you to complain about the "system". When it is really just talent on various occasions.

I've relayed several links... I don't know how you could miss what I'm referring to unless it was on purpose

Just a silly summation of officiating bias and (after asking for it) you skirted my addressing my example. It's not just the amount of calls that are made over a 7 game series that can affect a series outcome (of course ) it's who they are made on, when they are made, and when one side knows that they can go UFC while the other team is called for ticky tacks. If the last part happens to be in the last Q of game 7, thats a pretty clear advantage for that team to advance.

as of this post 44% of those that responded think there is a real possibility that the playoffs are at least somewhat rigged. After the latest Donaghy comments I bet that some who voted on the other side would reconsider.

STOMP

I think you're not taking into account the entire 7 game series in 2000 either. Like most fans you've seen a couple of games that were officiated poorly (again could have been easily due to homecourt advantage or incompetence which is not "rigging") and you exaggerate.

Yes, let's talk about the 2000 Lakers. Shaq averaged 12 FTs a game in the playoffs and LA shot 32 FTs a night on average (guess what they averaged against Portland?). You're not taking into account hack-a-shaq fouls, homecourt, talent level, or how many minutes Shaq/Kobe played in Game 7. Ultimately it wasn't some egregious difference in FTs, LA has much more paint heavy players that will get calls as well. All parts of this discussion you're choosing to skim over.

 

[STOMP]

Um I don't know, in general this thread has been pretty broad with the accusations and details. Stars get preferential treatment, but to what magnitude and in which games? Generally elite NBA Teams MUST have stars/superstars and that causes more people like you to complain about the "system". When it is really just talent on various occasions.

you are missing the point, is it on purpose? When David Stern speaks to the "star system" in interviews saying some players get more lenience from officials, he's legitamizing that some players are more equal then others and the league he presides over is more entertainment then actual sport. You do know who the officials answer to right? Following the TD embarrassment everyone and their grandmother called for the league's officials to be an independent body like MLB and Stern quelled complaints by claiming a transparent review of the entire system would take place. Anything but happened and SOS Dave is still calling the shots.

I think you're not taking into account the entire 7 game series in 2000 either. Like most fans you've seen a couple of games that were officiated poorly (again could have been easily due to homecourt advantage or incompetence which is not "rigging") and you exaggerate.

you're showing your bias and are full of it. I've watched literally a couple hundred NBA games a year for over the last decade... while the officials always have try not to let the home team get blown out biases, it's easy enough to spot the games when they come out with clear marching orders favoring cert*in teams. Am I biased for my rooting interest? Probably, but you might want to check what I wrote in the blame the officials thread following the Blazers recent loss.

Yes, let's talk about the 2000 Lakers. Shaq averaged 12 FTs a game in the playoffs and LA shot 32 FTs a night on average (guess what they averaged against Portland?). You're not taking into account hack-a-shaq fouls, homecourt, talent level, or how many minutes Shaq/Kobe played in Game 7. Ultimately it wasn't some egregious difference in FTs, LA has much more paint heavy players that will get calls as well. All parts of this discussion you're choosing to skim over.

skim over what a pot/kettle

you didn't even pretend to get your head out of the sand. Shaq consistently getting to bull over opponents as a Laker is supposed to surprise me? Nothing on Donaghy's allegations or why it's somehow okay that Shaq gets to elbow only other 7 foot 300 lb guy in the head (while set) and have the calls go his way. Of course not. You're just here to look down your nose

STOMP

 

[huevonkiller]

I like Wizard Mentor's analogy. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy orchestrated by the NBA higher ups, corporate sponsors, owners etc., but I feel the game is rigged to favor certain players and correspondingly certain teams.

Shape I can get that more subtle type of bias. Refs seem to have their own peculiar way of calling the game, but their biases usually end up affecting both teams when they change venues or crews.

 

[huevonkiller]

you are missing the point, is it on purpose? When David Stern speaks to the "star system" in interviews saying some players get more lenience from officials, he's legitamizing that some players are more equal then others and the league he presides over is more entertainment then actual sport. You do know who the officials answer to right? Following the TD embarrassment everyone and their grandmother called for the league's officials to be an independent body like MLB and Stern quelled complaints by claiming a transparent review of the entire system would take place. Anything but happened and SOS Dave is still calling the shots.

you're showing your bias and are full of it. I've watched literally a couple hundred NBA games a year for over the last decade... while the officials always have try not to let the home team get blown out biases, it's easy enough to spot the games when they come out with clear marching orders favoring cert*in teams. Am I biased for my rooting interest? Probably, but you might want to check what I wrote in the blame the officials thread following the Blazers recent loss.

skim over what a pot/kettle

you didn't even pretend to get your head out of the sand. Shaq consistently getting to bull over opponents as a Laker is supposed to surprise me? Nothing on Donaghy's allegations or why it's somehow okay that Shaq gets to elbow only other 7 foot 300 lb guy in the head (while set) and have the calls go his way. Of course not. You're just here to look down your nose

STOMP

I am not interested in unscientific analysis. I don't care what you've noticed with your eyes, fans are selfish and I really doubt their objectivity. I support various rivals that have defeated my team in vital situations, and I don't like to make excuses.

Of course you're biased, why should I accept your wild accusations? Notice how I'd just like to know what weird FT deviations you've noticed, etc., instead you go on some mini-rant about how obviously right you are. All I care about are the numbers, and if you can't provide that for me you're just another conspiracy theorist.

Sorry but there is little surprising about a Prime Shaq getting as many calls as he did. Especially with the intentional fouling he has to deal with. His average against Portland was right in line with his other averages against other teams. Maybe a bit more research on your part wouldn't hurt.

 

[KingSpeed]

Why does the NBA want LeBron in the Finals? The 2007 Finals (Cleveland/San Antonio) were the worst rated Finals in the last 23 years. Less than 10 million people watched.

 

[huevonkiller]

Why does the NBA want LeBron in the Finals? The 2007 Finals (Cleveland/San Antonio) were the worst rated Finals in the last 23 years. Less than 10 million people watched.

The Spurs seem to rank lower in tv ratings. Cleveland and LA are always headline games for the league.

LA vs New Jersey didn't get great ratings either, it depends on the opponent as well.