OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

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I would say that there are two problems with that statement:

1. Countries don't have morals other than those of the people living in those countries. All countries are made up of good and bad people. The overall moral tendencies of a people get institutionalized through a constitution. America's constitution is a document that shows that the predominant character of this country was founded on positive moral principles. Unfortunately, the institution of slavery shows that men often turn a blind eye to moral principles when money is involved.

2. All countries have blotches on their historic records. They also have things that have been done that are admirable and at times selfless. By far, slavery and racism are America's biggest stains, but there are plenty of others. Having stains, IMO, does not equate to having no morals. What a people choose to do about those stains shows the true moral fiber of a nation.

America has made painfully slow and hard-fought progress on issues of civil rights since the Civil War, but we're far from where we need to be. It seems to me that we may have reached an inflection point in our struggle with racism. I think there are far more people who are ready to make further needed changes than at any point in our history. Sure, there are plenty of other people with dark hearts on the issue of race who won't give up their biases easily, but if enough people are willing to push hard enough, this could just turn out to be a defining moment in our history where we make moves towards fulfilling the notion that all people are created equal and that liberty and justice for all truly is something that is not a privilege belonging to only white Americans, but rather to all Americans.
Well said, but my concern is even with this current push and willingness to make positive changes for social justice, there seems to be a movement towards more segregation/tribal groups with their own political positions. College campuses are preaching safe zones and anything/anyone outside the progressive movement maybe slanting more moderate/conservative or Libertarian is viewed as the enemy of justice, and are racist. So yes, we will make progress relative to policing and social justice but I think as a country we will be more politically polarized, and the lack of respect for differing views and people will continue , unless there is a concerted effort on all sides and beliefs to compromise for unity as a country. It just cant be them against us any longer with out damaging the minds and spirit of young people, who love unity by nature.
 
Well said, but my concern is even with this current push and willingness to make positive changes for social justice, there seems to be a movement towards more segregation/tribal groups with their own political positions. College campuses are preaching safe zones and anything/anyone outside the progressive movement maybe slanting more moderate/conservative or Libertarian is viewed as the enemy of justice, and are racist. So yes, we will make progress relative to policing and social justice but I think as a country we will be more politically polarized, and the lack of respect for differing views and people will continue , unless there is a concerted effort on all sides and beliefs to compromise for unity as a country. It just cant be them against us any longer with out damaging the minds and spirit of young people, who love unity by nature.

There’s always going to be pushback, but it just feels to me like we’re finally going to make some major moves in the right direction. It can’t happen nationally as long as Trump is in office, but locally many areas look poised to shake things up. Also, we’ve never seen as much public corporate dedication to ending racism. People are losing their jobs for racist statements and acts. Hopefully, by January 20th we have a new president and things can start to happen in the federal government.
 
Hopefully, by January 20th we have a new president and things can start to happen in the federal government.

I've already sent off to China to have mail in ballots printed naming me as president!
 
I would say that there are two problems with that statement:

1. Countries don't have morals other than those of the people living in those countries. All countries are made up of good and bad people. The overall moral tendencies of a people get institutionalized through a constitution. America's constitution is a document that shows that the predominant character of this country was founded on positive moral principles. Unfortunately, the institution of slavery shows that men often turn a blind eye to moral principles when money is involved.

2. All countries have blotches on their historic records.

America has made painfully slow and hard-fought progress on issues of civil rights since the Civil War, but we're far from where we need to be. It seems to me that we may have reached an inflection point in our struggle with racism. I think there are far more people who are ready to make further needed changes than at any point in our history. Sure, there are plenty of other people with dark hearts on the issue of race who won't give up their biases easily, but if enough people are willing to push hard enough, this could just turn out to be a defining moment in our history where we make moves towards fulfilling the notion that all people are created equal and that liberty and justice for all truly is something that is not a privilege belonging to only white Americans, but rather to all Americans.

1. You know I meant the people running the country, not the country itself. So I won't bother. Besides, the slaves were "freed" ages ago, yet people of color are still held back in 2020, by our U.S. government, on purpose. They are still taking away their rights to vote by purging and gerrymandering. I still don't see morals or American values here.

2. True, but our country isn't working to fix it's problems. Our government works against Americans. They have been helping the rich monopolize America since Reagan. Take us back to when we had robber barrens and workers had little rights. Don't believe me, look around. America is being monoploized, privatized and corporatized with help from both parties.


I would hope that this isn't the America people want. But both parties have brought the U.S. to this.

 
I've already sent off to China to have mail in ballots printed naming me as president!
If only they weren't written or printed in Mandarin you might be onto something here....as it is your ballots will only be in the Asian markets and they'll confuse president with present...thinking they're getting a free puppy!
 
I've already sent off to China to have mail in ballots printed naming me as president!
dog-president-hat.jpg
 
We haven't even started our debate and already you believe that you are correct and that I am the one who is wrong. That is wrong-headed thinking.


Ask black people if America has ever stood for it's own morals. They are fighting for their rights as humans, here in 2020.

I would say that institutionalized racism would qualify as... America having no morals.

Edit: I can disagree with people all day long. The problem comes when people turn the debate directly towards me. Please keep the debate on the topic and leave me out of it, and we will have no problems, ever. If you must, at least ask where I am coming from and I will try to explain, if possible.
We haven't even discussed my thinking on the subject and already you think I have "wrong-headed thinking". See, that's a useless approach.
This really is so self evident that I see you purpose in rehashing it over and over and over again.
 
We haven't even discussed my thinking on the subject and already you think I have "wrong-headed thinking". See, that's a useless approach.
This really is so self evident that I see you purpose in rehashing it over and over and over again.

Your thinking was evident in the first place Lanny. You don't seem to believe that I am even intelligent enough to understand you.

Your words: "I highly doubt that I could ever explain it to you." I was just showing you your own error in directing your message directly at me personally.
 
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Your thinking was evident in the first place Lanny.

Your words: "I highly doubt that I could ever explain it to you."

You don't seem to believe that I am even smart enough to understand you.
You would be wrong to seem that. It's not your intelligence that I question, it's your ability to be objective.
Okay, you're gonna drag it out of me. My opposition to your conclusion has to do with all the idealistic people who believe our beloved Constitution provides a logical way of righting wrongs. I'm speaking of all the young people who worked for the Civil Rights laws that we now enjoy. The war in Vietnam that everyone wanted ended. The opposition to the backwards moves by Trump and his cult. These people are the majority and change is happening and will continue to happen.
I'm reminded of the poem by Robert Frost
". . . But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
This is what I find to be self evident.
 
You would be wrong to seem that. It's not your intelligence that I question, it's your ability to be objective.
Okay, you're gonna drag it out of me. My opposition to your conclusion has to do with all the idealistic people who believe our beloved Constitution provides a logical way of righting wrongs. I'm speaking of all the young people who worked for the Civil Rights laws that we now enjoy. The war in Vietnam that everyone wanted ended. The opposition to the backwards moves by Trump and his cult. These people are the majority and change is happening and will continue to happen.
I'm reminded of the poem by Robert Frost
". . . But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
This is what I find to be self evident.

I am not idealistic. It's not idealistic to want our government to de-privatize our prisons, look up how much these disgusting sick f--ks make off housing Americans in prison, it's crazy. It's not idealistic to want our government to send our public schools money rather than help the rich close and privatize our schools. It's not idealistic to want Americans to get living wages. It's not alright that the rich take home the money while their workers go home, possibly to a street corner. No, I don't believe so. But that is alright, we all have our own views. And nobody here truly knows mine, only what they believe that I think. (I wish we could all actually see where the other was coming from, then we might "get" each other. Problem is people keep trying to wrap their heads around my views, or what they think my views are, and are failing miserably.)

I have no idea what the hell the Robert Frost reference was about. I didn't sleep well last night, so maybe that is why. :tongue:
 
I am not idealistic. It's not idealistic to want our government to de-privatize our prisons, look up how much these disgusting sick f--ks make off housing Americans in prison, it's crazy. It's not idealistic to want our government to send our public schools money rather than help the rich close and privatize our schools. It's not idealistic to want Americans to get living wages. It's not alright that the rich take home the money while their workers go home, possibly to a street corner. No, I don't believe so. But that is alright, we all have our own views. And nobody here truly knows mine, only what they believe that I think. (I wish we could all actually see where the other was coming from, then we might "get" each other. Problem is people keep trying to wrap their heads around my views, or what they think my views are, and are failing miserably.)

I have no idea what the hell the Robert Frost reference was about. I didn't sleep well last night, so maybe that is why. :tongue:
It is idealistic by definition of ideal. It would be ideal for all prisons to be government operated without regard to profit. It would be ideal if all schools could be equal in quality which would seem to mandate that they all be public. It would be ideal if everyone could earn a living wage. Everything you've expressed is ideal. Those who strive for the ideal are idealistic.
I've been idealistic my entire life. Perhaps that's been tempered with some practicality brought about by a lot of experience but I believe in the ideals that our Constitution allows for us to achieve.
The Robert Frost reference had to do with there are more things to be done and the struggle must continue even though we may be tired.
 
It is idealistic by definition of ideal. It would be ideal for all prisons to be government operated without regard to profit. It would be ideal if all schools could be equal in quality which would seem to mandate that they all be public. It would be ideal if everyone could earn a living wage. Everything you've expressed is ideal. Those who strive for the ideal are idealistic.
I've been idealistic my entire life. Perhaps that's been tempered with some practicality brought about by a lot of experience but I believe in the ideals that our Constitution allows for us to achieve.
The Robert Frost reference had to do with there are more things to be done and the struggle must continue even though we may be tired.

No, if people believe that people have a right to life, they must also believe that they have a right to a living wage (nothing idealistic there). We can't have Americans living on the streets, or half of America living pay check to pay check in our technological age such as we currently live in. Our congress can do better, they just don't care to do their jobs for Americans, only their rich donor friends. So Americans get a corporate friendly "gig economy" instead of living wages for American workers. Minimum wage in the U.S. hasn't been raised in over a decade, a record since minimum wages were instated. Pathetic in my opinion. Supposedly Americans want better for our children. In America now the job landscape isn't nearly as good as it was when many of us were younger. Instead of manufacturing American made goods here in America, like we did when I was a kid, they "outsourced" many of those jobs to other countries. Nowadays too many Americans are delivery drivers for the "more fortunate".

No, again. Americas prisons shouldn't have been turned into a money making industry by Bill Clinton. He also signed the bill that lengthened prison sentences, knowing fully well his rich donor friends would profit from it. Congress has also helped turn our health care system into a money making industry for the rich, to the detriment of Americans health and welfare. Look these things up, please. If any of it is in error. Let me know.

Problem is, our government directly causes most of America's problems through it's very own actions. Our government doesn't work to fix them (I can show people how both parties do it all day long, they just don't care to see). It is not idealistic to want America (our congress)... to live up to the standards that it sets for it's very own citizens.

I post the truth as I see them, facts. Nobody cares to look at them and show me where I might in error, only that they believe that I am.

Maybe someone could show me where America isn't being privatized, monopolized and corporatized to the detriment of American workers. Or, at the very least, show me where my statements might be in error.

Beyond that, this is hopefully my last post dealing with everyone else's beliefs about me personally. (Edit: I am sorry but I am done with other peoples beliefs. If they have facts I will listen. Beyond that, their "beliefs" do nothing to further our understanding of each others viewpoint(s).
 
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No, if people believe that people have a right to life, they must also believe that they have a right to a living wage (nothing idealistic there). We can't have Americans living on the streets, or half of America living pay check to pay check in our technological age such as we currently live in. Our congress can do better, they just don't care to do their jobs for Americans, only their rich donor friends. So Americans get a corporate friendly "gig economy" instead of living wages for American workers. Minimum wage in the U.S. hasn't been raised in over a decade, a record since minimum wages were instated. Pathetic in my opinion. Supposedly Americans want better for our children. In America now the job landscape isn't nearly as good as it was when many of us were younger. Instead of manufacturing American made goods here in America, like we did when I was a kid, they "outsourced" many of those jobs to other countries. Nowadays too many Americans are delivery drivers for the "more fortunate".

No, again. Americas prisons shouldn't have been turned into a money making industry by Bill Clinton. He also signed the bill that lengthened prison sentences, knowing fully well his rich donor friends would profit from it. Congress has also helped turn our health care system into a money making industry for the rich, to the detriment of Americans health and welfare. Look these things up, please. If any of it is in error. Let me know.

Problem is, our government directly causes most of America's problems through it's very own actions. Our government doesn't work to fix them (I can show people how both parties do it all day long, they just don't care to see). It is not idealistic to want America (our congress)... to live up to the standards that it sets for it's very own citizens.

I post the truth as I see them, facts. Nobody cares to look at them and show me where I might in error, only that they believe that I am.

Maybe someone could show me where America isn't being privatized, monopolized and corporatized to the detriment of American workers. Or, at the very least, show me where my statements might be in error.

Beyond that, this is hopefully my last post dealing with everyone else's beliefs about me personally. (Edit: I am sorry but I am done with other peoples beliefs. If they have facts I will listen. Beyond that, their "beliefs" do nothing to further our understanding of each others viewpoint(s).
I too am done which is what I saw originally as the predicted outcome.
 
I too am done.

Since you refused to bring any facts of your own to the conversation, or to look up any of the facts that I posted. Thank you.

Edit: (Lanny, not once did you ever come at me with anything more than a "belief". That is not being open-minded at all. That is just telling someone that you don't believe them, might as well just tell them that they are lying, it would have been easier on both of us. Not that it matters now, we are done.)
 
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Since you refused to bring any facts of your own to the conversation, or to look up any of the facts that I posted. Thank you.
Repeat, I am done. Please respect this.
 
I said I won't be voting for Biden. I said I have, and would continue to, support John Kasich. He was really my guy all along. I said that Trump does a LOT of things that greatly disappoint and disturb me. I said I support Trump on tough immigration laws (not the separating families aspect, though), 2nd Amendment, Christian freedoms, right-to-life, and other things. I've said many, many things regarding Trump over the years. I'm pretty much a lone soldier in here, I know that.

I love our AMERICAN flag! I wish those buffoons wouldn't desecrate it like that.

Hey @ABM , here's how John Kasich wants you to vote in November. Give it some thought?

“Former Ohio Gov. John Kasich, a Republican and frequent Trump critic, has been approached and is expected to speak at the Democratic National Convention on Biden’s behalf next month… Kasich is among a handful of high-profile Republicans likely to become more active in supporting Biden in the fall.”

barfo
 
Hey @ABM , here's how John Kasich wants you to vote in November. Give it some thought?

“Former Ohio Gov. John Kasich, a Republican and frequent Trump critic, has been approached and is expected to speak at the Democratic National Convention on Biden’s behalf next month… Kasich is among a handful of high-profile Republicans likely to become more active in supporting Biden in the fall.”

barfo

I'd want to run against Biden in 2024, as well, after he totally screws up the country.
 
I'd want to run against Biden in 2024, as well, after he totally screws up the country.

So you are claiming that your political hero is so immoral that he'd work to totally screw up the country just so that he could be president himself.

That says a lot.

barfo
 
So you are claiming that your political hero is so immoral that he'd work to totally screw up the country just so that he could be president himself.

That says a lot.

barfo

Kasich hates Trump
 
So you are claiming that your political hero is so immoral that he'd work to totally screw up the country just so that he could be president himself.

That says a lot.

barfo
cognitive dissonance at it's finest.
 
cognitive dissonance at it's finest.

Hardly. Just because I support Kasich over Trump, doesn't mean I support Biden just because Kasich does. As mentioned above, Kasich has no love-loss for Trump. Either way, I would never vote for Biden. And, I'm gonna vote.
 
I'd want to run against Biden in 2024, as well, after he totally screws up the country.
Sorry, but your boy already won the race to the bottom.......worry about 2020 and let 2024 take care of itself.
 
Hardly. Just because I support Kasich over Trump, doesn't mean I support Biden just because Kasich does. As mentioned above, Kasich has no love-loss for Trump. Either way, I would never vote for Biden. And, I'm gonna vote.

So you are saying you don't trust Kasich's political judgement. And yet you think he should be president.

You want to vote for someone you think would be bad at the job. When did you start hating America?

barfo
 
So you are saying you don't trust Kasich's political judgement. And yet you think he should be president.

I said I wouldn't be voting for Biden. I never mentioned anything about Kasich's political judgement. Hey, I never voted for Obama. But that's not necessarily to say that I don't trust anyone's political judgement who did vote for him. I'll tell you this much, though. I support of office of the POTUS. I supported Obama while he was in office. I'd support Biden should he be elected. Up to that point, it's dog eat dog.
 
I'll tell you this much, though. I support of office of the POTUS. I supported Obama while he was in office. I'd support Biden should he be elected.

What does "support" mean in this context? In what way did you support Obama in office? Were you against McConnell and the Senate trying to block all his judicial appointees?
 
What does "support" mean in this context? In what way did you support Obama in office? Were you against McConnell and the Senate trying to block all his judicial appointees?

I really dislike those types of shenanigans on both sides.
 

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