OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

[riverman]

All any of us should be saying about Black Lives Matter and all civil rights protests is, "I'm listening and we're sorry" ...whitesplaining racism is like burying guilt....something the Irish have mastered for centuries....my father's racism started in New Orleans when he was in pilot training for WWII and went out with a few buddies and got mugged by local blacks....he feared them for the rest of his life and became racist from that incident. Imagine how many incidents black soldiers withstood during the same period as the start of WWII....We are listening! We are truly sorry!..that's my chant and I have native American blood as well as Irish....I also have Caucasian features that afford me white privilege whether I was aware of it or not...was proud to see dviss marching in Portland as well as Rodney Hood, Trent Jr..Nassir Little and Dame...get woke America or you'll never be great

 

[ABM]

Thats your words, right?



Also your words, right?

Because what Colin did, wasn't disrespecting the flag.

This too?



Those are your words, right? Because you basically are passing judgement on how someone else is allowed to be patriotic or express themselves.



Yours again, right? Because you're, again, telling someone else who has a totally different experience in the US, to abide by how you have experienced being an American. You're also telling someone how they're supposed to react to oppression (when historically speaking, you are among the least oppressed group in the history of the US).



"seemingly" based on your world view, not that of others.



"other" non white statement...



Who runs the schools....(hint: it's the government). Who has historically been racist in a lot of it's laws, beliefs, and actions? (hint: it's the government). Who runs the police? (hint: it's not our homes).



No kidding, you see the flag as all that is right and pure about the country, and have never experienced what it's like to have fought for the country in a war only to come back and see "blacks only" and "whites only" signs, etc.



You seem to be playing into the idea that they are just talking and no actions. The players do speak in schools, do stuff in the community "and the like".



Again, so you're not basing what you consider patriotism based on your own personal experience and not allowing anyone who experiences it differently to express it, right?



When you've taken away any voice that people have and have oppressed them for generations, yes.



Live outside of your bubble, please.



taking a knee for the sake of a taking a knee is so dismissive of anyone eles's American experience.



When you are denied access to the higher ground in the first place...



You seem to be forgetting that they're doing it already, and what makes you the judge on how they should protest or elicit change? They've tried for generations to effect social change in the country.

I think that's enough evidence to show that you really shouldn't have told me to go back and read your comments. Your comments were nothing but a bunch of white privilege on display.

Great work.

I also candidly and vulnerably shared anecdotes from my past, some of my upbringing and the incredible legacy set before me by my parents. I also shared that I agreed with @Lanny 's response in that I will always have my hand over my heart and sing the national anthem, while also taking the knee if that occasion arose.

Thanks for telling me what I am, though.

 

[julius]

Great work.

I also candidly and vulnerably shared anecdotes from my past, some of my upbringing and the incredible legacy set before me by my parents. I also shared that I agreed with @Lanny 's response in that I will always have my hand over my heart and sing the national anthem, while also taking the knee if that occasion arose.

Thanks for telling me what I am, though.

You're welcome for pointing out to everyone that your words don't match what you claim to be how you live your life.

 

[ABM]

You're welcome for pointing out to everyone that your words don't match what you claim to be how you live your life.

Racism is embedded in the heart. What are parents telling their children? That's the real place to start. I know it was with me.

But, again, thanks for telling me who I am, although, you know no idea how I live my life.

Oh, and I remember these times, as well. We're not experiencing anything new here.

 

[julius]

Racism is embedded in the heart. What are parents telling their children? That's the real place to start. I know it was with me.

But, again, thanks for telling me who I am, although, you know no idea how I live my life.

Oh, and I remember these times, as well. We're not experiencing anything new here.

again, your words don't match how you say you live your life. That's all I'm saying. You contradict yourself a lot on here (remember the "petard" comments a few weeks ago?).

 

[riverman]

Racism is embedded in the heart. What are parents telling their children? That's the real place to start. I know it was with me.

But, again, thanks for telling me who I am, although, you know no idea how I live my life.

racism has nothing to do with the heart...it's a brain cancer...it's fear based and a defense mechanism just like an animal instinct for territory...it's caveman behavior...some children don't have parents to tell them things....153 million currently as of the last count a few weeks ago...my parents were orphans...the teachers were nuns pretty much. for someone who is constantly asking forum members who they are considering a myriad of topics...I think you welcome people talking about who you are ABM....that's why you have all these personal definitions...comes with the territory..if you open the can of worms you might want to put on the grass skirt

 

[RR7]

It's already started in the homes though. You repeating that makes it sound like you think it should stay in the homes or something. You see 10k people out in portland marching for this, it's because the conversation started in their homes. You see the millions of people all around the world marching in solidarity? It's because the conversation started in their homes.

The conversation seemed to happen in your home, as you say, but then it seems in your words on here that that's where the conversation stopped.

 

[illmatic99]

Your comments were nothing but a bunch of white privilege on display.

This. I've been following this guy's posts for over a decade. Shoulda known.

 

[illmatic99]

Good post.

I was just telling my wife yesterday that, perhaps, the nation/world needed an antagonist such as Trump to motivate the ranks - in whatever capacity that may be. He came to drain the swamp, but he's been taking a bunch of trees with him, as well. Sometimes, less trees means more overall vision of the area at large. But, log too many trees?

I still do believe Trump has had our nation's best interests in mind (kind of an us against the world - thinking America has been getting screwed by China, ISIS, et al), and he has had to deal with the entire ranks of the democratic leadership from the get-go, yet his Costco-sized ego has gotten the best of him on more than one occasion. All that said, we have a completely charged-up situation right now and the world is watching.

Speaking of this, my wife and I watched this yesterday morning...and probably the reason I made those Trump comments to her. It's a good watch...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-whole-world-is-watching-us/

For fucks sake, stop spreading your right wing propaganda and spare us your Traump had the nation's best interest bullshit. He cares about nothing but himself in EVERY FUCKING THING he does. Too bad you're too blinded to see it. The fact that you are actually trying to credit Trump in a positive manner for this shitshow tells me everything I need to know about where you stand.

Voting on one issue. Gimme a fucking break. The hell you are.

 

[ABM]

again, your words don't match how you say you live your life. That's all I'm saying. You contradict yourself a lot on here (remember the "petard" comments a few weeks ago?).

Again, bullcrap. I well stated how I feel about our flag and these kneeling protests. Again, in my mind, the question is...what is all this kneeling really supposed to accomplish? My thinking is, if they really want to effect social change, these players have all - and I mean ALL - the opportunity in the world to hit up our communities (perhaps, orchestrated by the players' unions?), get into our schools with their message, etc., etc. OUR KIDS LOOK UP TO AND WILL LISTEN TO THEM! Taking a knee, in and of itself, isn't having the impact it was designed to. Is it?

 

[illmatic99]

again, your words don't match how you say you live your life. That's all I'm saying. You contradict yourself a lot on here (remember the "petard" comments a few weeks ago?).

He said he voted based on Trump's pro-life anti-abortion agenda and apparently that was the only deciding factor for him.

 

[julius]

Again, bullcrap. I well stated how I feel about our flag and these kneeling protests. Again, in my mind, the question is...what is all this kneeling really supposed to accomplish? My thinking is, if they really want to effect social change, these players have all - and I mean ALL - the opportunity in the world to hit up our communities (perhaps, orchestrated by the players' unions?), get into our schools with their message, etc., etc. OUR KIDS LOOK UP TO AND WILL LISTEN TO THEM! Taking a knee, in and of itself, isn't having the impact it was designed to. Is it?

It's like you don't see what you're saying. You're basically using an old racist trope of saying that the players aren't doing anything, or aren't doing what YOU approve of them doing.

You are ignoring, willfully or ignorantly, how it is that white people have an easier time dealing with stuff they're frustrated with. We're the ones in power. If the system you want to change is against you, what does starting at home do?

What exactly are you suggesting they say at home, or in schools, to get those in power to stop abusing their power?

"Look Billy, if you are just more compliant with the police officer, you won't get shot"?

What social change do you think they can effect at home or in schools? Telling 3rd grade police offers to stop systematically targeting black men at a significantly higher rate than that of ANY other race, despite data showing their actions don't warrant the attention?

How exactly is that supposed to be addressed at home?

....white privilege, you have a call on line 3...

 

[riverman]

Taking a knee, in and of itself, isn't having the impact it was designed to. Is it?

Trump's response to it fueled division and anger around a civil rights issue...I'd say it had a HUGE impact on current events...you can disrespect someone's freedom of expression seemingly because Trump's reaction led that charge and it was a really bad and wrong reaction...pure bluster..

 

[julius]

He said he voted based on Trump's pro-life anti-abortion agenda and apparently that was the only deciding factor for him.

Oh, I know that. That's a whole other issue of "wtf" .

 

[riverman]

what is all this kneeling really supposed to accomplish?

ending police brutality against black people....you obviously aren't taking that seriously?

 

[julius]

ending police brutality against black people....you obviously aren't taking that seriously?

It's supposed to being more attention to the fact that black people are treated significantly different than others in the country, by those in power. And have been for hundreds of years now. It's a blight on our society as a whole, that we've allowed this to happen as long as it has. But hey, if we just can talk to the kids and explain how to properly act when you're around people who can kill you and get away with it, this won't be a problem.

 

[Minstrel]

Oh, and I remember these times, as well. We're not experiencing anything new here.

I don't know what your point is in continuing to post this. They were as villified at the time as Kaepernick has been. There were people at the time denouncing it as disrespecting the flag/anthem and someone like you, back them, would have giddily said, "I agree with them!!!!!" as you did in starting this thread.

 

[ABM]

It's like you don't see what you're saying. You're basically using an old racist trope of saying that the players aren't doing anything, or aren't doing what YOU approve of them doing.

You are ignoring, willfully or ignorantly, how it is that white people have an easier time dealing with stuff they're frustrated with. We're the ones in power. If the system you want to change is against you, what does starting at home do?

What exactly are you suggesting they say at home, or in schools, to get those in power to stop abusing their power?

"Look Billy, if you are just more compliant with the police officer, you won't get shot"?

What social change do you think they can effect at home or in schools? Telling 3rd grade police offers to stop systematically targeting black men at a significantly higher rate than that of ANY other race, despite data showing their actions don't warrant the attention?

How exactly is that supposed to be addressed at home?

....white privilege, you have a call on line 3...

Great, let's see your ideas.

 

[julius]

I don't know what your point is in continuing to post this. They were as villified at the time as Kaepernick has been. There were people at the time denouncing it as disrespecting the flag/anthem and someone like you, back them, would have giddily said, "I agree with them!!!!!" as you did in starting this thread.

It's a weird example of white-washing and re-writing history.

 

[illmatic99]

Oh, I know that. That's a whole other issue of "wtf" .

I can't believe an actual grown ass man can proudly type: "Trump had the nation's best interest in mind....."

and actually believe that shit.

 

[julius]

Great, let's see your ideas.

Improve the requirements for what it takes to be come a police officer. Have psychological tests, de-emphasize physical force as a response from the police, don't allow those who served in the military to serve as police (barring them passing psychological tests) as we need to distance the fantasy of military might = strong police force.

Change it so the police aren't the catch all for our problems. Suicide, drug abuse/addition, mental health issues are not necessarily something they should be in charge of.

Offer "sensitivity" training for those who work in his field. And fire those who are unwilling to take it, or have violated someone elses rights.

Teach de-escalation tactics as the #1 training tool for police interaction.

In communities of color, have the police who work there actually be FROM there.

Call racism for what it is.

Realize that the south lost the war and it wasn't about "states rights".

Get rid of the confederate flag (they lost the war, get over it).

Include POC in community organization groups that interact with the police and INVOLVE them in trainings for the police/forces, and have them be in on the decisions made.

Make every single cop wear a body camera and have it be active 100% of the time, and if the cop turns it off, they are fired (notice i said if the cop turns it off).

Do not use force when it comes to protesters, and have a mediating force that they actually use.


And that's just off the top of my head. And no it won't solve the issue, and it's not the only things that should be done. but it will help a lot if you actually treat people as equals and meant it.

 

[ABM]

I don't know what your point is in continuing to post this. They were as villified at the time as Kaepernick has been. There were people at the time denouncing it as disrespecting the flag/anthem and someone like you, back them, would have giddily said, "I agree with them!!!!!" as you did in starting this thread.

The point is, protesting is one thing...getting involved, quite another. When we see these protests, are we doing anything about it? I mean, really? If so, then what? My larger point was, I think these many players have a much greater opportunity to get their collective message across than simply taking a knee. An that's not a disrespect to them. It's an invitation to an opportunity to make larger strides. An, no, this is not privileged white boy talking here.

I do remember, even though I had left that Black church after being abused, my dad had me go back with him and help with the teen center they had established. That was in a way a cathartic experience for me as I began making friends - true friends - with a number of the kids there. That has always stuck with me. It's kind of funny, I can have these same types of discussions with my Black friends that lead to productive conclusions. Not so much with you guys. But, hey, that's cool. We all have our own perspectives. Probably, nothing will much change that here.

 

[RR7]

Again, bullcrap. I well stated how I feel about our flag and these kneeling protests. Again, in my mind, the question is...what is all this kneeling really supposed to accomplish? My thinking is, if they really want to effect social change, these players have all - and I mean ALL - the opportunity in the world to hit up our communities (perhaps, orchestrated by the players' unions?), get into our schools with their message, etc., etc. OUR KIDS LOOK UP TO AND WILL LISTEN TO THEM! Taking a knee, in and of itself, isn't having the impact it was designed to. Is it?

When they try to get into the schools, when they try to "do something other than kneel" They're told to shut up and dribble. They're told to keep politics out of sports. They're reminded that we(white people) want them as an escape from reality. That they're there to just provide entertainment for US. They're reminded all the damn time the improper way to do things,when and where they CAN'T protest, but then when they change the way they do it, that's also not ok, the goalposts keep on moving, until they have to say fuck it, burn the god damn goalposts down and let's start over. You keep moving the posts, and that's where we're at.

 

[RR7]

The point is, protesting is one thing...getting involved, quite another. When we see these protests, are we doing anything about it? I mean, really? If so, then what? My larger point was, I think these many players have a much greater opportunity to get their collective message across than simply taking a knee. An that's not a disrespect to them. It's an invitation to an opportunity to make larger strides. An, no, this is not privileged white boy talking here.

Are you doing anything about it? Are you taking an active anti-racist stance and helping to make change? Or is it too comfortable with your white privilege, where you just push ALL of the work on the black community? Because shit's never going to change when you get enough comfortable white people willing to squash the voice of those below them.

 

[ABM]

Improve the requirements for what it takes to be come a police officer. Have psychological tests, de-emphasize physical force as a response from the police, don't allow those who served in the military to serve as police (barring them passing psychological tests) as we need to distance the fantasy of military might = strong police force.

Change it so the police aren't the catch all for our problems. Suicide, drug abuse/addition, mental health issues are not necessarily something they should be in charge of.

Offer "sensitivity" training for those who work in his field. And fire those who are unwilling to take it, or have violated someone elses rights.

Teach de-escalation tactics as the #1 training tool for police interaction.

In communities of color, have the police who work there actually be FROM there.

Call racism for what it is.

Realize that the south lost the war and it wasn't about "states rights".

Get rid of the confederate flag (they lost the war, get over it).

Include POC in community organization groups that interact with the police and INVOLVE them in trainings for the police/forces, and have them be in on the decisions made.

Make every single cop wear a body camera and have it be active 100% of the time, and if the cop turns it off, they are fired (notice i said if the cop turns it off).

Do not use force when it comes to protesters, and have a mediating force that they actually use.


And that's just off the top of my head. And no it won't solve the issue, and it's not the only things that should be done. but it will help a lot if you actually treat people as equals and meant it.

Very cool. I plan to get involved with rocketown in Nashville. When it reopens, I'll have the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the less fortunate kids in our community. Kids of all colors. Modeling and mentoring are very good things.

https://www.rocketown.com/

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I'll have the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the less fortunate kids in our community. Kids of all colors.

That's very Biden of you!

 

[riverman]

That's very Biden of you!

you beat me to it.....too quick for the old river! I was typing the same post..

 

[ABM]

That's very Biden of you!

Well, I wouldn't go that far...

 

[SlyPokerDog]

you beat me to it.....too quick for the old river! I was typing the same post..

I felt like Barry Bond at the steroid convention softball game. If someone is going to pitch one in there like that, I'm swinging!

 

[riverman]

Very cool. I plan to get involved with rocketown in Nashville. When it reopens, I'll have the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the less fortunate kids in our community. Kids of all colors. Modeling and mentoring are very good things.

https://www.rocketown.com/

I think it's great to do community outreach but to really give the kids mentoring...give them an honest president to cheer for in November...that'll help them and give them somebody to look up to instead of the insulting embarrassment we're saddled with today