ESPN is trolling again

[NOVoodoo]

I don't think Davis did that bad considering how hard it is for big men to come in and adjust to the game. Guys like Blake Griffin are an anomaly. Most big guys take a year or two to adjust to the fouls and the speed of the game. With that said, Lillard did some things this year that haven't been done since Iverson. His PER is lower than it should be, but a lot of that has to do with shitty teammates. I think Lillard should have averaged closer to 8 assists this season, but it's been pointed out before that his teammates just weren't knocking down shots. Next season he needs to get his assists and steals up. I think that would go a long way to bumping up his PER.

I understand the adjustments that big men have to make, and I'm in no way discounting Davis' future, but if we're talking about Davis' merits as a defender, for the sake of the award, shouldn't he have to be an elite defender in the way that Lillard was an elite offensive player?

I saw Lillard tear up the best defensive team in the league a couple of times, with the best defender the league's seen in a while, Tony Allen (imo), and the league's leader in total steals, Mike Conley, guarding him, and the favorite for D-POY, Marc Gasol, waiting for him in the paint. If he can take on the league's best defensive players and dominate them, and straight up make it hard for them to even guard him, then why aren't we holding Davis to the same standard against the league's best offensive players, if we're solely putting him in the ROY discussion on his defensive merits?

 

[Natebishop3]

I understand the adjustments that big men have to make, and I'm in no way discounting Davis' future, but if we're talking about Davis' merits as a defender, for the sake of the award, shouldn't he have to be an elite defender in the way that Lillard was an elite offensive player?

I saw Lillard tear up the best defensive team in the league a couple of times, with the best defender the league's seen in a while, Tony Allen (imo), and the league's leader in total steals, Mike Conley, guarding him, and the favorite for D-POY, Marc Gasol, waiting for him in the paint. If he can take on the league's best defensive players and dominate them, and straight up make it hard for them to even guard him, then why aren't we holding Davis to the same standard against the league's best offensive players, if we're solely putting him in the ROY discussion on his defensive merits?

I think a lot of Lillard's overall numbers have suffered because of how bad the Blazers have been this year. They're relied so much on him to score and create that his shooting has taken a hit, his minutes are really high, and this long losing streak sure isn't helping his WS. I just think some people want to be devil's advocate to stir shit up, and I'm sure that this guy is only taking this stance to grab attention. His article was horrible. It was poorly written, his thoughts weren't well organized, and it's clear he's just trying to make an argument for arguments sake.

 

[THE HCP]

Shit all I know is that he's only put the kind of numbers up the The Big O and Iverson have done as rookies. That's some elite company.

 

[huevonkiller]

Lillard is the better offensive player, the question is overall for me. Davis has some things going against and for him there.

Make no mistake PER is meant to reward high-usage players, so Davis' PER is much more impressive. PER just doesn't do a good job of framing the whole argument.

 

[NOVoodoo]

PER just doesn't do a good job of framing the whole argument.

Glad that you qualified that, because I agree completely with the qualification. PER is a weak statistic that more than anything, doesn't take into consideration players roles, and I don't even think that's something that's a priori, like you alluded to earlier, but rather something that you can make non-statistical, yet actually tangible arguments against, if you're knowledgeable of the player and the game, unlike most of these guys that write for Bleacher Report.

 

[Rhal]

I know this has been mostly rehashed in many threads on S2 but I was overlooking what Lillard had accomplished and I put this list together in about 20m, its pretty damn impressive and highlights just how special this season has been for Lillard.

On October 31, 2012, in his NBA debut against the Lakers, Lillard recorded 23 points and 11 assists, joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas as the only players in NBA history with at least 20 points and 10 assists in their NBA debuts. On November 3, 2012, Lillard joined Oscar Robertson in recording 20 or more points and more than seven assists in his first three rookie season games

Damian Lillard became the second player in Trail Blazers franchise history to score 1,500 points and dish out 500 assists in a single season, joining Clyde Drexler who did it twice (1986-87, 91-92). Lillard is also the third rookie ever to reach those numbers in a season and the first rookie since Allen Iverson in 1996-97 with the 76ers. Both of the previous players went on to win the rookie of the year.

Lillard is the only player in NBA history to score 900-plus points and make 100-plus 3-pointers in his first 50 career games.

became the first NBA player to record 1,000 points and 300 assists in his first 55 career games since LeBron James did it (2003-04)

Lillard is the fastest player to 1,200 points and 400 assists (64 games) since Allen Iverson in 1996-97

Feburary 14th Damian Lillard recorded his 25th game this season with at least 20 points Tuesday against the Heat. No other rookie has more than 8 such games this season.

Damien Lillard Won the Taco Bell Skills challenge

Lillard broke the rookie 3 point record and has tied the Blazers all time 3's record at 181 with 2 games left to play

Damian Lillard is first NBA rookie to ever record 35 points, nine assists and no turnovers since turnovers became a stat in 1978-79 (Elias).

Rookie of the month for November, December, January, Febuary, March

Lillard is 14th in the NBA in scoring at 19 a game.

Only 4 rookies have ever averaged what Lillard is averaging (19pts 6.5 assists http://bkref.com/tiny/xZM1P
) and thats Damon stoudamrie/Oscar robertson/Allen Iverson/Damien Lillard

 

[Natebishop3]

I know this has been mostly rehashed in many threads on S2 but I was overlooking what Lillard had accomplished and I put this list together in about 20m, its pretty damn impressive and highlights just how special this season has been for Lillard.

On October 31, 2012, in his NBA debut against the Lakers, Lillard recorded 23 points and 11 assists, joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas as the only players in NBA history with at least 20 points and 10 assists in their NBA debuts. On November 3, 2012, Lillard joined Oscar Robertson in recording 20 or more points and more than seven assists in his first three rookie season games

Damian Lillard became the second player in Trail Blazers franchise history to score 1,500 points and dish out 500 assists in a single season, joining Clyde Drexler who did it twice (1986-87, 91-92). Lillard is also the third rookie ever to reach those numbers in a season and the first rookie since Allen Iverson in 1996-97 with the 76ers. Both of the previous players went on to win the rookie of the year.

Lillard is the only player in NBA history to score 900-plus points and make 100-plus 3-pointers in his first 50 career games.

became the first NBA player to record 1,000 points and 300 assists in his first 55 career games since LeBron James did it (2003-04)

Lillard is the fastest player to 1,200 points and 400 assists (64 games) since Allen Iverson in 1996-97

Feburary 14th Damian Lillard recorded his 25th game this season with at least 20 points Tuesday against the Heat. No other rookie has more than 8 such games this season.

Damien Lillard Won the Taco Bell Skills challenge

Lillard broke the rookie 3 point record and has tied the Blazers all time 3's record at 181 with 2 games left to play

Damian Lillard is first NBA rookie to ever record 35 points, nine assists and no turnovers since turnovers became a stat in 1978-79 (Elias).

Rookie of the month for November, December, January, Febuary, March

Lillard is 14th in the NBA in scoring at 19 a game.

Only 4 rookies have ever averaged what Lillard is averaging (19pts 6.5 assists http://bkref.com/tiny/xZM1P
) and thats Damon stoudamrie/Oscar robertson/Allen Iverson/Damien Lillard

Repped. I was wanting to post something similar to this but I was too lazy to go find all his achievements this season. Oh, but Anthony Davis is the superior offensive player ROFL

 

[NOVoodoo]

Repped. I was wanting to post something similar to this but I was too lazy to go find all his achievements this season. Oh, but Anthony Davis is the superior offensive player ROFL

Repped as well... agreed 100%.

Can we put some blame on ESPN as well, for making this one of their front page NBA stories? It's the kind of sensationalist journalism that I'd expect from TMZ or some hack media outlet. I really think they have too much of a monopoly on not only sports media but also the public opinion which that sort of responsibility entails. Not to go too far off topic, but just look at the Mike Rice firing, or similar situations. Their journalists don't do the investigative work, but when it reaches public attention, they monopolize the subject, have everyone on Around the Horn, PTI, Mike and Mike, and every one of their shows calling for not only a coach's firing, an AD's firing, but also a university President's firing. I have to give props to Chris Christie for having Dr. Barchi's back. Just because Bill Plaschke, Mike Greenberg, and co. decided that this very accomplished, great, successful college President that has taken the university to new heights for what it should be, as a university, all of a sudden the public opinion is that he has to go. This is a very powerful media entity, and yet they let shit like this hit the frontpage, just to pander for attention.

 

[Natebishop3]

Repped as well... agreed 100%.

Can we put some blame on ESPN as well, for making this one of their front page NBA stories? It's the kind of sensationalist journalism that I'd expect from TMZ or some hack media outlet. I really think they have too much of a monopoly on not only sports media but also the public opinion that sort of responsibility entails. Not to go too far off topic, but just look at the Mike Rice firing, or similar situations. Their journalists don't do the investigative work, but when it reaches public attention, they monopolize the subject, have everyone on Around the Horn, PTI, Mike and Mike, and every one of their shows calling for not only a coach's firing, an AD's firing, but also a university President's firing. I have to give props to Chris Christie for having Dr. Barchi's back. Just because Bill Plaschke, Mike Greenberg, and co. decided that this very accomplished, great, successful college President that has taken the university to new heights for what it should be, as a university, all of a sudden the public opinion is that he has to go. This is a very powerful media entity, and yet they let shit like this hit the frontpage, just to pander for attention.

Well, considering most of their "experts" picked Davis at the beginning of the season, I'm sure they're more than willing to put up someone's opinion that Davis still deserves the trophy.

 

[NOVoodoo]

Well, considering most of their "experts" picked Davis at the beginning of the season, I'm sure they're more than willing to put up someone's opinion that Davis still deserves the trophy.

If the motive were to save the asses of 99% of the writers that predicted Davis (which was not really a bad pick), wouldn't the angle be to run stories about how Lillard has defied expectations from HS to college to the pro's, and is the clear ROY, despite all odds? Instead, they go with a story that's going to get people arguing and bitching... that's just sensationalist journalism.

 

[Natebishop3]

If the motive were to save the asses of 99% of the writers that predicted Davis (which was not really a bad pick), wouldn't the angle be to run stories about how Lillard has defied expectations from HS to college to the pro's, and is the clear ROY, despite all odds? Instead, they go with a story that's going to get people arguing and bitching... that's just sensationalist journalism.

Exactly. But that's what they want. The ROY discussion has been over for months, and virtually everyone has already given the award to Lillard, so I'm sure ESPN loves trying to inject some argument back into the debate. And of course it's some no-name hack writing it, because they can't have one of their well known guys putting out this kind of bullshit.

 

[BrianFromWA]

the crazy thing for me is that this isn't even a "Mike Trout vs. Miggy Cabrera" situation, where people are insanely split on it. ONE CLOWNSHOE NOH fan decides to write up his Ode to Chuck Swirsky and ESPN puts it on the front page. No one else in America is saying that a guy who will sweep every Rookie of the Month award shouldn't win RoY.

 

[Natebishop3]

the crazy thing for me is that this isn't even a "Mike Trout vs. Miggy Cabrera" situation, where people are insanely split on it. ONE CLOWNSHOE NOH fan decides to write up his Ode to Chuck Swirsky and ESPN puts it on the front page. No one else in America is saying that a guy who will sweep every Rookie of the Month award shouldn't win RoY.

Here's the thing, he covers the Warriors. He claims he's impartial on the matter. You'd love some of his tweets though.

He claims that Dame is only the ROY because of the Portland fanbase. I shit you not.

The NBA is bigger in Portland than in NOLA, by a wide margin. A motivated, digitally vocal fan base can augment a star's fame.

We're talking relative. New Orleans is NBA Siberia. RT @Haleaziz lol yeah Portland always has the most high profile players

Partially impacting this Brow vs. Dame debate: One fan base is motivated to tout their star and the other largely isn't.

@Sonicsdontexist @docischief Again, it's more a point about how NOH has no national footprint.

This guy is actually arguing that Dame is ROY because the Portland fanbase has been pushing him. It's hilarious.

 

[Pinwheel1]

So in a nutshell, this is the dudes argument.

#1 "If 80 percent of life is showing up, as Woody Allen claims, then that does much to explain why Damian Lillard has a firm grasp on this season's rookie of the year award voting."

#2 "The two main advanced statistics, Player Efficiency Rating (PER) and Win Shares, both dramatically prefer Davis on a possession-to-possession basis. Based on PER, Davis is leading Lillard 21.8 to 16.6, an enormous advantage. In Win Share average, Davis nearly doubles Lillard .159 to .091."

#3 "Davis was billed as a defensive force, and his team has remained bad at defense. These are facts, and they might disqualify him in the minds of some voters, since he's not great on the end of the floor that made him famous. But I believe he should win this award for providing superior offense to Lillard's. What little improvement New Orleans has experienced has come at the offensive end. It has leapt from a 26th ranking in offensive efficiency last season to a league-average 15th. Much of that has to do with AD's efficient, effective play and his ability to pressure defenses with the threat of the lob dunk. His ability at the rim is no small thing, and his ability to make that part of the game look easy shouldn't work against him."

Yet another example of why I ignore most discussions relating to someone's PER.
It should account for about 10% when on selecting your players .

 

[Mediocre Man]

You know I am not one who enjoys the homer nation type of posts where we all whine because our guy got a raw deal in the press, but this guy is just stupid. He is totally reaching for some reason

 

[Natebishop3]

You know I am not one who enjoys the homer nation type of posts where we all whine because our guy got a raw deal in the press, but this guy is just stupid. He is totally reaching for some reason

I think the reason is obvious. He wants attention.

 

[zonasotahomer]

I mean, Davis beats lillard in every single advanced statistic except ast% an OWS
I'd pick davis

Edit: I'd also rather have Davis going forward

 

[Mediocre Man]

I mean, Davis beats lillard in every single advanced statistic except ast% an OWS
I'd pick davis

of course you would. If not because you are just dumb as cum, but because you want to needle dick Blazer fans.

 

[zonasotahomer]

of course you would. If not because you are just dumb as cum, but because you want to needle dick Blazer fans.

Davis had a better season numbers wise
Check out his per 36 compared to lillards

 

[Natebishop3]

I mean, Davis beats lillard in every single advanced statistic except ast% an OWS
I'd pick davis

Edit: I'd also rather have Davis going forward

Well of course you'd pick him. He's missed 1/4 his season. He'd fit right in on the Wolves MASH unit. He can trade rehab tips with Love and Rubio.

 

[zonasotahomer]

Well of course you'd pick him. He's missed 1/4 his season. He'd fit right in on the Wolves MASH unit. He can trade rehab tips with Love and Rubio.

I'd rather be injured and have HA the potential to be a playoff team than watch as my team burns its starters into the ground on a team that never really had a chance

 

[Natebishop3]

I'd rather be injured and have HA the potential to be a playoff team than watch as my team burns its starters into the ground on a team that never really had a chance

Oh the potential to be a playoff team... at what point do you actually become a playoff team? Let me know when you guys make it. I'll keep the cake in the freezer.

 

[julius]

Davis had a better season numbers wise
Check out his per 36 compared to lillards

It's a shame that the league isn't run by per 36's, otherwise Rubio would be MVP and Davis would be ROY, and the Wolves might make the playoffs more than once a decade.

 

[Natebishop3]

It's a shame that the league isn't run by per 36's, otherwise Rubio would be MVP and Davis would be ROY, and the Wolves might make the playoffs more than once a decade.

But Davis had a better season numbers wise!

Of course Damian put up numbers that nobody has seen since Allen Iverson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and LeBron, but hey.... Davis is the superior player. It's cool.

 

[zonasotahomer]

Oh the potential to be a playoff team... at what point do you actually become a playoff team? Let me know when you guys make it. I'll keep the cake in the freezer.

We were an 8th seed when Ricky went down
Then we added andrei kirilenko, alexey shved, chase budinger, and Dante Cunningham to replace Wes johnson, Michael Beasley, and darko milicic.
So we have a better team now. Both Ricky and love start of the season hurt.
Pek and Ak miss around 15-20 games
Chase, one of our 2 floor spacers tears his meniscus game 6.
Adelmans wife starts having unexplained seizures.
Josh Howard tears his ACL. Love breaks his hand again.

But you Portland basketball geniuses can't recognize

 

[Natebishop3]

We were an 8th seed when Ricky went down
Then we added andrei kirilenko, alexey shved, chase budinger, and Dante Cunningham to replace Wes johnson, Michael Beasley, and darko milicic.
So we have a better team now. Both Ricky and love start of the season hurt.
Pek and Ak miss around 15-20 games
Chase, one of our 2 floor spacers tears his meniscus game 6.
Adelmans wife starts having unexplained seizures.
Josh Howard tears his ACL. Love breaks his hand again.

But you Portland basketball geniuses can't recognize

Yeah, it's cool, once Roy and Oden get healthy we're going to start winning championships baby!

 

[zonasotahomer]

But Davis had a better season numbers wise!

Of course Damian put up numbers that nobody has seen since Allen Iverson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and LeBron, but hey.... Davis is the superior player. It's cool.

He played 38 mins a game and was given full reign of the team
BUT HEY
HE'S ALLEN IVERSON!
LOL

 

[julius]

We were an 8th seed when Ricky went down
Then we added andrei kirilenko, alexey shved, chase budinger, and Dante Cunningham to replace Wes johnson, Michael Beasley, and darko milicic.
So we have a better team now. Both Ricky and love start of the season hurt.
Pek and Ak miss around 15-20 games
Chase, one of our 2 floor spacers tears his meniscus game 6.
Adelmans wife starts having unexplained seizures.
Josh Howard tears his ACL. Love breaks his hand again.

But you Portland basketball geniuses can't recognize

cool story bro.

 

[julius]

He played 38 mins a game and was given full reign of the team
BUT HEY
HE'S ALLEN IVERSON!
LOL

Said no one ever.

 

[Natebishop3]

He played 38 mins a game and was given full reign of the team
BUT HEY
HE'S ALLEN IVERSON!
LOL

Full reign of the team? LaMarcus Aldridge?

Obviously it's the 38 minutes per game that caused him to put up so many stats. That's obviously it, because everyone who plays 38 minutes per game averages numbers like Lillard.