Evangelical Group To Convert Kids As Young As 5 At Portland Pools, Parks

[Denny Crane]

If your definition of "anti-religious" is "teaching kids the knowledge that we've accumulated over the last couple thousand years," then yes, schools are anti-religious. Of course, that says some pretty negative things about religion.

My definition of "anti-religious" doesn't presume that religious people are anti-knowledge (as yours presumes), and instead would be predicated on directly encouraging kids not to have a religious faith. Giving them the knowledge that might cause them to question religious faith is not direct. Everyone should have as broad a knowledge base as possible and then make their own decisions based on that.

I'm pretty sure catholics know what contraception is.



Catholics really might want to attend a school that doesn't promote things that are opposed to their doctrines. But they may not be able to afford the tuition.

Catholics are one example.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm pretty sure catholics know what contraception is.



Catholics really might want to attend a school that doesn't promote things that are opposed to their doctrines. But they may not be able to afford the tuition.

Catholics are one example.

Yes, but I don't think exposing kids to some beliefs you don't share is de facto "anti-religious." If that's the case, life itself is anti-religious, and anti-secularism and anti-anything, because you're always going to run into exposure to beliefs you don't share.

If public schools were actively attempting to stamp out religion, I'd agree that they were anti-religious. Schools are simply offering knowledge and plenty of knowledge that we've accumulated over time doesn't correspond well with belief systems that are two thousand years old or older. That doesn't make such knowledge "anti-religious" in any active way.

 

[crowTrobot]

Sorry, but I disagree. You can't expect poor people to just "work it out" to be able to afford a government mandated thing that is on the order of $10,000 per student in cost.

In my experience if someone is really convicted about something they will find a way. For example I'm not buying it's necessarily an impossibility that a poor working parent couldn't homeschool. It wouldn't surprise me if accredited (but religiously edited) homeschooling courses were available online through Christian institutions.

Yep, handing out condoms is anti-religious, as is teaching evolution or that creationism is crap (which it is).

Doing anything at all is apparently anti-religious by your definition.

Forcing a child to take a condom against their wishes would be. Simply making them available is not.

Your own words: "rules against religious assembly" - that's anti 1st amendment.

the 1st amendment necessarily has to have some practicality in its application. we have freedom of speech, but nobody is really free to yell fire in a crowded theatre. similarly we have freedom of assembly, but it isn't practical to allow without any consideration of consequences under all possible circumstances.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, but I don't think exposing kids to some beliefs you don't share is de facto "anti-religious." If that's the case, life itself is anti-religious, and anti-secularism and anti-anything, because you're always going to run into exposure to beliefs you don't share.

If public schools were actively attempting to stamp out religion, I'd agree that they were anti-religious. Schools are simply offering knowledge and plenty of knowledge that we've accumulated over time doesn't correspond well with belief systems that are two thousand years old or older. That doesn't make such knowledge "anti-religious" in any active way.

Schools aren't giving people the choice. And yeah, they are actively stamping out religion. They're not offering religious knowledge in communities that are almost exclusively one religion.

See my response to crowTrobot below.

 

[Further]

I just hate proselytizing, especially to kids, although it is legal and they have the right, I just wish they wouldn't. If I brought a kid to that pool, I would ask them politely not to talk to my kid. If they refused, then I might practice my freedom of speech and make sure their words weren't going to make it past mine.

But I would point them out to the kid and explain that those people were not to be listened to or respected.

 

[Denny Crane]

In my experience if someone is really convicted about something they will find a way. For example I'm not buying it's necessarily an impossibility that a poor working parent couldn't homeschool. It wouldn't surprise me if accredited (but religiously edited) homeschooling courses were available online through Christian institutions.



Doing anything at all is apparently anti-religious by your definition.

Forcing a child to take a condom against their wishes would be. Simply making them available is not.



the 1st amendment necessarily has to have some practicality in its application. we have freedom of speech, but nobody is really free to yell fire in a crowded theatre. similarly we have freedom of assembly, but it isn't practical to allow without any consideration of consequences under all possible circumstances.

You can't rely on your experience. It's limited. I assure you there are people in Apalachia or Louisiana that are so dirt poor they're unable to come up with $10,000 x 4 for the 4 kids they have to go to the school they choose.

I'm not opposed to secular schools. Heck, most people should go to them, IMO. Evangelism is a decent chunk of what religion is about, and handing out condoms is evangelism against their beliefs.

Imagine things were reversed. Every school was very religious dogma blah blah. Only if you can come up with $10,000 can you send one of your kids to a secular school.

Yelling fire in a crowded theatre causes bodily harm. I think that is a stretch.

 

[Further]

I'm not a expert on any of this, so I could be wrong, but freedom of assembly in schools is fine, the Christians or Jews or whomever may assemble, they simply can't do it using school funds (stuff), so they can't have a teacher supervise and they can't use the art supplies to make a banner. But they can meet on their own in prayer groups at lunchtime or after school, and in many public schools there are groups that assemble to pray. Just not at a school wide assembly or in class or in any way that may be construed as being sanctioned.

 

[MARIS61]

In the old days, the communities built their own schools and hired the teacher.

...and shit in a hole in the ground, died from the common cold, believed people of color were not actually people, thought the world was flat...

Ahh...those were the days.

 

[MARIS61]

No, they don't. Some people are simply too poor to afford private school or to not work so they can stay at home and teach their kids.

Schools forbid most prayer on the school property. That seems anti-religion to me, as well as anti-assembly and anti-speech. They also pass out condoms, which seems in opposition to religious beliefs that forbid (awfully) contraception. That seems anti-religion to me, too.

I'm not at all pro religion, but I have to be honest about what the schools are. Like I said, I'm not sure if there's a better way to do things. Well, maybe get rid of the truancy laws or allow for vouchers for the education of parents' choice.

Sounds like you're a 100% supporter of Obamacare then?

 

[Denny Crane]

Sounds like you're a 100% supporter of Obamacare then?

Parts of ObamaCare have been ruled anti-religion, no?

I'm no supporter of the government forcing people do anything at all.

 

[Minstrel]

Schools aren't giving people the choice. And yeah, they are actively stamping out religion. They're not offering religious knowledge in communities that are almost exclusively one religion.

That's not their mandate. That's like saying churches are actively stamping out physics because they don't teach proper physics curriculum. Public schools are for kids to learn secular knowledge, not to be given religious inculcation. That's very different from actively opposing religion. There are other institutions meant for teaching religion.

 

[MARIS61]

We're talking about a group of unsupervised mentally-unbalanced pedophiles approaching and brainwashing very young children with racist, sexist lies not only without their parent's consent but against their parent's wishes.

One of them comes near my grandkids I will neutralize them permanently.

 

[MARIS61]

Parts of ObamaCare have been ruled anti-religion, no?

I'm no supporter of the government forcing people do anything at all.

So you withdraw your suggestion to force me and other taxpayers to pay for school vouchers so morons can have their children taught obvious lies?

 

[crowTrobot]

You can't rely on your experience. It's limited. I assure you there are people in Apalachia or Louisiana that are so dirt poor they're unable to come up with $10,000 x 4 for the 4 kids they have to go to the school they choose.

homeschooling, using the internet as a tool to do most of the work, doesn't cost $10000.

 

[crandc]

I only wish I had been exposed to secular humanism in school, along with my schoolmates! To be taught to think critically, question authority, seek facts, pursue knowledge! To be taught to accept human equality! To learn to appreciate arts and science as well! To learn that all humans have the right to control their destiny, to make decisions about their personal lives, including their sexual lives! To be warned against racial, ethnic, religious, gender prejudice!

Oh man, sounds so nice. Too bad it didn't happen.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

The public education system does not have a secular agenda. That's just a bullshit rallying call made up by the religious right.

I'd say most people believe the public education system is pushing some sort of agenda. The ones that don't feel that way are generally white, male, likely atheist or agnostic, and come from at least a middle-class household.

It's also quite likely they spent their time trying to fit in with true hipsters, though I don't see how that's relevant to the conversation.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

In the old days, the communities built their own schools and hired the teacher.

Yes, we all miss those days. Except all those who died of dysentery or were burned as witches.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Y'know, I grew up in England, where they have COMPULSORY RELIGIOUS EDUCATION in school. Funny how religion is a lot healthier over here where they're "stamping it out".

I have to say, I know a fuck of a lot more about the Bible than my so-called Christian students. But that's probably why they believe and I don't.

 

[magnifier661]

Everyone sins, even children. I have yet to meet a child who is never selfish or deceitful.

If you think that "happiness" is the aim of Christianity, then you're way off.

Hear hear... It's good when atheist think they know what we believe.

 

[magnifier661]

so you'd be ok if I started publicly recruiting kids for a Christianity is Bullshit Vacation Atheist School?

CiBVAS is fun, kids!

LMAO, it happens all the time! And I don't go around getting all defensive about it. If you have such conviction with your believe, knowing how (cough cough) iron clad it is, you shouldn't be pissed about this either.

 

[magnifier661]

In my experience if someone is really convicted about something they will find a way.

Tell that to the millions of unemployed people that can't afford to raise their families in America.

For example I'm not buying it's necessarily an impossibility that a poor working parent couldn't homeschool. It wouldn't surprise me if accredited (but religiously edited) homeschooling courses were available online through Christian institutions.

link?

Doing anything at all is apparently anti-religious by your definition.

The funny thing about you is you will argue the color of blue being blue if you see it gives any slight favor for a theist belief. It's actually pretty funny to read.

Forcing a child to take a condom against their wishes would be. Simply making them available is not.

How about forcing a student to learn evolution, even if it is against their religion?

the 1st amendment necessarily has to have some practicality in its application. we have freedom of speech, but nobody is really free to yell fire in a crowded theatre. similarly we have freedom of assembly, but it isn't practical to allow without any consideration of consequences under all possible circumstances.

Difference is, you will not be prosecuted for yelling "fire" in a crowded building. You may get your ass kicked, but the government cannot and should not take that privilege away.

 

[barfo]

Difference is, you will not be prosecuted for yelling "fire" in a crowded building. You may get your ass kicked, but the government cannot and should not take that privilege away.

If there is in fact not a fire, and you yelled "fire" just for your own amusement, you most certainly would be subject to prosecution.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

If there is in fact not a fire, and you yelled "fire" just for your own amusement, you most certainly would be subject to prosecution.

barfo

Only on Tuesdays

 

[Denny Crane]

That's not their mandate. That's like saying churches are actively stamping out physics because they don't teach proper physics curriculum. Public schools are for kids to learn secular knowledge, not to be given religious inculcation. That's very different from actively opposing religion. There are other institutions meant for teaching religion.

The government doesn't make laws requiring people to go to church.

HUUUUUUGE difference.

 

[Denny Crane]

We're talking about a group of unsupervised mentally-unbalanced pedophiles approaching and brainwashing very young children with racist, sexist lies not only without their parent's consent but against their parent's wishes.

One of them comes near my grandkids I will neutralize them permanently.

You shouldn't talk about public school teachers like that.

tsk tsk

 

[Denny Crane]

homeschooling, using the internet as a tool to do most of the work, doesn't cost $10000.

It costs at least $10,000 of work at a minimum wage job. The people will starve.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, we all miss those days. Except all those who died of dysentery or were burned as witches.

Those things happened in the schools?

Wow.

 

[Minstrel]

The government doesn't make laws requiring people to go to church.

HUUUUUUGE difference.

That's because religion isn't necessary curriculum for kids to prepare them to survive in a modern world of jobs and managing one's money, whereas stuff like math, economics and science is. The government makes laws for the well-being of kids to prevent parental neglect, which includes education, medical attention, etc. Religion is an optional pursuit, much like sports and musical instruction.

 

[magnifier661]

That's because religion isn't necessary curriculum for kids to prepare them to survive in a modern world of jobs and managing one's money, whereas stuff like math, economics and science is. The government makes laws for the well-being of kids to prevent parental neglect, which includes education, medical attention, etc. Religion is an optional pursuit, much like sports and musical instruction.

So you are saying we should also ban sports or band? What are you Stalin?!?!

 

[Minstrel]

So you are saying we should also ban sports or band? What are you Stalin?!?!

You only dislike Stalin because he was an atheist.