Evidence that "Atheism" is not a sound belief

[ABM]

If that's the case I'm having God do my taxes.

And I expect a large refund!

No problem. Less 10%, naturally.

 

[magnifier661]

I prefer this one:

"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, though religion were not; but superstition dismounts all these, and erecteth an absolute monarchy in the minds of men. Therefore atheism did never perturb states; for it makes men wary of themselves, as looking no further: and we see the times inclined to atheism (as the time of Augustus Cæsar) were civil times. But superstition hath been the confusion of many states, and bringeth in a new primum mobile, that ravisheth all the spheres of government."

I couldn't agree more. Religion, in my mind, is catastrophic when you have people blindly following. I think that's why the first quote I given made a lot of sense. Until we strive for full philosophic understanding; atheism is a better state of mind.

And I am only bringing up "Christianity" because that is my faith. But I think this makes a lot of sense when Jesus tells us to strive, learn and pursuit to be like Christ. If you don't; you will be lead to do harmful things in the name of the Lord.

 

[TripTango]

I couldn't agree more. Religion, in my mind, is catastrophic when you have people blindly following. I think that's why the first quote I given made a lot of sense. Until we strive for full philosophic understanding; atheism is a better state of mind.

So you agree with Bacon that atheism leads to sense and a "natural piety"?

 

[magnifier661]

So you agree with Bacon that atheism leads to sense and a "natural piety"?

Been kinda my point. I look at atheism as a form of religion.

 

[TripTango]

Been kinda my point. I look at atheism as a form of religion.

That wasn't the question!

 

[magnifier661]

That wasn't the question!

Well I believe piety as a "religious devotion" or "spirituality". So your question is do I think Bacon thinks Atheism is sense of natural religious or spiritual devotion? Basically nature's religion?

 

[TripTango]

Well I believe piety as a "religious devotion" or "spirituality". So your question is do I think Bacon thinks Atheism is sense of natural religious or spiritual devotion? Basically nature's religion?

In context, Bacon seems to be describing "morality", would you agree?

 

[magnifier661]

In context, Bacon seems to be describing "morality", would you agree?

Let's see:

Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, though religion were not; but superstition dismounts all these, and erecteth an absolute monarchy in the minds of men. Therefore atheism did never perturb states; for it makes men wary of themselves, as looking no further: and we see the times inclined to atheism (as the time of Augustus Cæsar) were civil times. But superstition hath been the confusion of many states, and bringeth in a new primum mobile, that ravisheth all the spheres of government.

Well the way I read this like during the times of Caesar; people were civil; but superstition created separation between the states of government. Basically meaning: Be careful with this thinking as one would be with superstition.

Also, when talking about sometimes superstition will make a person think only in one way.

But yeah; outward morality, and religion is an inward morality.

 

[magnifier661]

In context, Bacon seems to be describing "morality", would you agree?

Let's see:

Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, though religion were not; but superstition dismounts all these, and erecteth an absolute monarchy in the minds of men. Therefore atheism did never perturb states; for it makes men wary of themselves, as looking no further: and we see the times inclined to atheism (as the time of Augustus Cæsar) were civil times. But superstition hath been the confusion of many states, and bringeth in a new primum mobile, that ravisheth all the spheres of government.

Well the way I read this like during the times of Caesar; people were civil; but superstition created separation between the states of government. Basically meaning: Be careful with this thinking as one would be with superstition.

Also, when talking about sometimes superstition will make a person think only in one way.

But yeah; outward morality, and religion is an inward morality.

 

[RR7]

So then the belief in God is sound as well?

logically, to me personally, no. I can't get there. But I can understand it for others. I have no problem with other people's beliefs. I wouldn't start a thread telling them or proving to them why their belief structure is false. I have no problem with debating bits and pieces, whatever. Do so with a few friends who are religious. I get that some people believe, and have no problem with it. Can see that it makes people happy, so I don't care at all that they do. I understand that they likely feel the same about me as I do about them. I can't fathom the existence of god. Makes no sense to me. I do not believe. And I can't get my mind to see that others do. I know that the absolute reverse is true. When you're certain of that belief in god, and can't fathom how someone doesn't see it.

 

[TripTango]

Also, when talking about sometimes superstition will make a person think only in one way.

But yeah; outward morality, and religion is an inward morality.

Sounds like we're in agreement with regards to morality then -- cool. I think you are slightly misreading Bacon's meaning with respect to superstition, but that's not a biggie. Anyway, that's probably enough time devoted to this particular tangent.

Of course, if there's anything worthy of going off-topic, it's bacon.

 

[magnifier661]

Sounds like we're in agreement with regards to morality then -- cool. I think you are slightly misreading Bacon's meaning with respect to superstition, but that's not a biggie. Anyway, that's probably enough time devoted to this particular tangent.

Of course, if there's anything worthy of going off-topic, it's bacon.

He is a stud!

 

[magnifier661]

logically, to me personally, no. I can't get there. But I can understand it for others. I have no problem with other people's beliefs. I wouldn't start a thread telling them or proving to them why their belief structure is false. I have no problem with debating bits and pieces, whatever. Do so with a few friends who are religious. I get that some people believe, and have no problem with it. Can see that it makes people happy, so I don't care at all that they do. I understand that they likely feel the same about me as I do about them. I can't fathom the existence of god. Makes no sense to me. I do not believe. And I can't get my mind to see that others do. I know that the absolute reverse is true. When you're certain of that belief in god, and can't fathom how someone doesn't see it.

I can respect that. But now you know how the other side feels. Many whom believe in God feel the exact same way about those that don't. It takes certain people to actually know how both sides feel.

I actually think we're getting somewhere now. Respect!

 

[RR7]

I can respect that. But now you know how the other side feels. Many whom believe in God feel the exact same way about those that don't. It takes certain people to actually know how both sides feel.

I actually think we're getting somewhere now. Respect!

I agree. I mean, a discussion about stuff is fine. I used to share an office with a religious friend, and we would go back and forth, never getting work done. We were both comfortable enough in our beliefs, also, to be able to joke with eachother, without feeling like it's a personal insult to the other.

As for getting somewhere, in a thread proving atheism isn't a sound belief, I don't think we'll get anywhere. Evidence like what you have posted isn't true evidence. I really have no clue what sort of evidence would make me believe. I'll likely never know. But stuff that doesn't have an answer isn't it.

The nice thing is, I know where I came from(mom and dad) and have a pretty good idea of how I should act as an individual while I am on this earth. I do it to enjoy my time on this earth. It's fascinating to think of where mankind came from as a whole. But I don't need the answer to feel fulfilled. And I don't really care what happens after. I guess nothing. I'm not living just to make it elsewhere, and don't need to know. Some do for purpose. A lot of people need things in life. Some need an organized religion to, say, keep them from booze. Others, like my friend mentioned above, doesn't seem to "need" religion in that same way. He just believes, and acts, essentially, as jesus would. Or tries to. Some need to trumpet a lack of belief.

 

[TripTango]

He is a stud!

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

 

[MARIS61]

I couldn't agree more. Religion, in my mind, is catastrophic when you have people blindly following.

We agree.

Religion is catastrophic.

 

[MARIS61]

Been kinda my point. I look at atheism as a form of religion.

I guess that's why the concept escapes you.

 

[Denny Crane]

I guess that's why the concept escapes you.

Atheism is technically a religion, in the eyes of the courts.

When religious groups want to organize for some purpose, atheists should be allowed to organize for similar purposes.

That is the extent of it, though.

 

[MARIS61]

Let's see:

Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, though religion were not; but superstition dismounts all these, and erecteth an absolute monarchy in the minds of men. Therefore atheism did never perturb states; for it makes men wary of themselves, as looking no further: and we see the times inclined to atheism (as the time of Augustus Cæsar) were civil times. But superstition hath been the confusion of many states, and bringeth in a new primum mobile, that ravisheth all the spheres of government.

Well the way I read this like during the times of Caesar; people were civil; but superstition created separation between the states of government. Basically meaning: Be careful with this thinking as one would be with superstition.

Also, when talking about sometimes superstition will make a person think only in one way.

But yeah; outward morality, and religion is an inward morality.

All Bacon is saying is:
atheism = sane perception of reality = peaceful, moral society
superstition/religion = denial of reality = tyrany, immoral society

 

[MARIS61]

Atheism is technically a religion, in the eyes of the courts.

When religious groups want to organize for some purpose, atheists should be allowed to organize for similar purposes.

That is the extent of it, though.

The courts in America are a tool of religion, controlled by religion, representing only religion.

There has never been a declared atheist on the supreme court in the entire history of our country, and all laws and modern day decisions on their interpretations have been made by religion.

By your definition atheists should pay no taxes on property owned by their businesses nor on any money they spend to educate people that there is no god. I could go on and on citing examples where law and the courts do not treat atheism as a religion, but you get the idea.

 

[MARIS61]

Sounds like we're in agreement with regards to morality then -- cool. I think you are slightly misreading Bacon's meaning with respect to superstition, but that's not a biggie. Anyway, that's probably enough time devoted to this particular tangent.

Of course, if there's anything worthy of going off-topic, it's bacon.

Everything is better with bacon!

 

[magnifier661]

All Bacon is saying is:
atheism = sane perception of reality = peaceful, moral society
superstition/religion = denial of reality = tyrany, immoral society

Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

Maybe that has more to do with the military totalitarianism rather than the atheism.

 

[magnifier661]

Maybe that has more to do with the military totalitarianism rather than the atheism.

And that same argument can be made to religious leaders that abuse the power.

 

[ABM]

And that same argument can be made to religious leaders that abuse the power.

Absolutely! And, what a travesty that is.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

And that same argument can be made to religious leaders that abuse the power.

Totally agree. There are a lot of parallels between the two.

 

[MARIS61]

Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

You are referring to murders committed by tyrants, dictators, and juntas against peaceful societies.

Governments are the antithesis of societies.

The populace of China, the largest concentration of atheists on the planet, is also one of the most peaceful, selfless and harmonious. Nearly all violence committed there is by the government and against society.

American society is highly religious in comparison, and is perhaps the most violent, selfish society on Earth.

 

[MARIS61]

And that same argument can be made to religious leaders that abuse the power.

Since they are preying on ignorance I'd say ALL religious leaders abuse their "power".

 

[ABM]

Since they are preying on ignorance I'd say ALL religious leaders abuse their "power".

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a narrow-minded viewpoint, but it belongs to you, nonetheless.