FINALLY! Don't Ask Don't Tell is over!!

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Question One: aside from the manner in which they have sex, what constitutes being a homosexual?

Aside from the manner in which they have sex, what constitutes being a heterosexual?

Question Two: Why do men and women not shower together at LA Fitness or Gold's Gym or the Y?

Beats me. I'd certainly be more likely to join a gym if that were the case. Or maybe that's the answer, they are trying to keep me out.

I think hundreds of years of social tradition is the actual answer.

barfo
 
Question One: aside from the manner in which they have sex, what constitutes being a homosexual?

You ask this question once per month, or whenever this topic comes up, and I (and others) have told you: what constitutes being homosexual or heterosexual is the gender you're attracted to. If someone is attracted to the opposite sex, they are heterosexual whether or not they have sex. The same goes for homosexuals.

Question Two: Why do men and women not shower together at LA Fitness or Gold's Gym or the Y?

Cultural norm. US society has chosen to segregate men from women for some socially determined sense of modesty. I don't think US society has any cultural norms about mixed sexuality accommodations because the US has spent most of its history trying to prevent/ignore homosexuality. So I don't think there's any pat "men and women don't shower together so that informs us on how straights and gays should be handled" statement that can be made.
 
Alright, quick question. How do boys who were raised as nudists react to naked girls when they are 13-14 year old boys?

When I was that age and I saw a car magazine at the store with a girl in a bikini in it I had to be careful and think about baseball and how boring it is just to stay calm.

I think that would take all the fun out of things like seeing your first live naked girl, shame for the nudists. On the other hand, they get to all the time. Who knows which is better?
 
Alright, quick question. How do boys who were raised as nudists react to naked girls when they are 13-14 year old boys?

When I was that age and I saw a car magazine at the store with a girl in a bikini in it I had to be careful and think about baseball and how boring it is just to stay calm.

I think that would take all the fun out of things like seeing your first live naked girl, shame for the nudists. On the other hand, they get to all the time. Who knows which is better?

Thank god for baseball.

We American guys are certainly visually stimulated, but it isn't clear to me how much of that is nature and how much is nurture. I think it is possible that if we'd grown up differently that we wouldn't be as excited by a random nipple, but would still be able to get it up when the situation required.

But I don't know, never been to that alternate universe. Want to go, though.

barfo
 
I think I know the answer anyway, it has to be upbringing for the most part. If I see a picture of what I would otherwise consider a 10/10 girl but she has underarm hair....NO DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously.
 
Crap. Just lost a really long post. :sigh:

You ask this question once per month, or whenever this topic comes up, and I (and others) have told you: what constitutes being homosexual or heterosexual is the gender you're attracted to. If someone is attracted to the opposite sex, they are heterosexual whether or not they have sex. The same goes for homosexuals.
One of the reasons I keep bringing this up is that it's NOT the definition of the US government (military, in this case). I get that it may be accepted as such by many, but it's erroneous. Here's what the US Code has to say about it, so that we're not just making stuff up to help our point:
The term “homosexual” means a person, regardless of sex, who engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in homosexual acts, and includes the terms “gay” and “lesbian”.
(3) The term “homosexual act” means—
(A) any bodily contact, actively undertaken or passively permitted, between members of the same sex for the purpose of satisfying sexual desires; and
(B) any bodily contact which a reasonable person would understand to demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in an act described in subparagraph (A).
further:
The prohibition against homosexual conduct is a longstanding element of military law that continues to be necessary in the unique circumstances of military service.
(14) The armed forces must maintain personnel policies that exclude persons whose presence in the armed forces would create an unacceptable risk to the armed forces’ high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability.
(15) The presence in the armed forces of persons who demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability.
I bolded the "action" words. It's not illegal to be sexually attracted to anyone, same sex or not. It's illegal to act on it. It's legal for me to think that a female sailor is attractive. It's illegal to commit a sex act with her.

Tangentially, here's how the government classifies homosexuality (from 2006):
Pentagon guidelines that classified homosexuality as a mental disorder now put it among a list of conditions or "circumstances" that range from bed-wetting to fear of flying.
The revision came in response to criticism this year when it was discovered that the guidelines listed homosexuality alongside mental retardation and personality disorders.
The guidelines outline retirement or other discharge policies for service members with physical disabilities. The rules include sections that describes other specific conditions, circumstances and defects that also could lead to retirement, but are not physical disabilities.
Among the conditions are stammering or stuttering, dyslexia, sleepwalking, motion sickness, obesity, insect venom allergies and homosexuality
You aren't discharged for a predilection to bed wet, or stutter, or having a fear of flying until you actually act upon it or it affects your performance. If you're afraid of flying but keep getting on the plane, no one cares. If you think it's stupid to parachute out of a perfectly good airplane, but keep doing it anyway, no one cares. If you are attracted to your hot female CO, but do nothing to act on it, no one cares. If you would like to have sex with the same-sex sailor you work next to, but don't act on it, no one cares.

You won't get me to say that these are great definitions, or horrible ones. They are the LAW OF THE LAND. While in your particular corner of society that may not mean much, it does in the military.

Here are two personal examples (though inappropriate for small viewers):
A sailor on the other crew was punished (lost his clearance and was sent to a non-essential duty in the continental US) for being caught receiving oral sex from a transvestite in Honolulu. The arrest was originally for "public indecency" (he was receiving this outside a bar and was caught by civilian police), and the "giver" was very feminine-looking, by accounts of those who had seen the sailor with the giver throughout the night. The sailor stated that he was not homosexual and thought that it was a girl servicing him, but it didn't matter. He wasn't discharged, probably (my speculation here) because he was able to convince someone that having sex with a bisexual/transvestite was a one-time thing for him. But he was punished more severely than, say, a guy who just was caught with a prostitute or who committed adultery.
I've told the story before in here about the sailor from my boat with a wife and two kids who, admittedly very intoxicated, got into another sailor's bed and started giving him oral sex. The receiver then woke up and started beating up the giver. Both were punished and kicked off the ship, but because the admittedly heterosexual first sailor had committed a homosexual act (and had potential to do so again the next time he got intoxicated), he was discharged from the navy. The receiver was dropped to the lowest enlisted rank and lost his clearance, which meant he couldn't serve on submarines anymore.

The two stories are just counterpoints to those thinking that their definition is right. As far as the military and government are concerned, "homosexuality" doesn't have anything to do with thoughts or feelings or attractions. It's based on physical acts.
 
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One of the reasons I keep bringing this up is that it's NOT the definition of the US government (military, in this case). I get that it may be accepted as such by many, but it's erroneous. Here's what the US Code has to say about it, so that we're not just making stuff up to help our point

If your question was "What does the military consider to be homosexuality?" then you should have asked that question. My response wasn't erroneous, it's the actual definition of sexuality.

I was answering the question you asked, not the question you apparently meant inside your head.

I bolded the "action" words. It's not illegal to be sexually attracted to anyone, same sex or not. It's illegal to act on it.

Your own quoting of military code doesn't support this claim. From your quote:

"The term 'homosexual' means a person, regardless of sex, who ... has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in homosexual acts"

As you can see, actually committing the act is not necessary for the military to consider a soldier homosexual. The words "propensity" and "inten[tion]" are words that deal with the mind, not actions. They're vague, not black and white.

Which is why DADT was put in place to allow gay soldiers to serve...it was a way for the Clinton administration to get around that rule without actually sanctioning homosexuality in the military. If a gay soldier doesn't mention he/she is gay, or that he/she has a same-sex lover, there's no way to be charged with a "propensity" or "intention" of same sex intercourse.

As far as the military and government are concerned, "homosexuality" doesn't have anything to do with thoughts or feelings or attractions. It's based on physical acts.

Not according to the code you quoted. And the next step is to remove the difference in how the military disciplines homosexual intercourse versus heterosexual intercourse.
 
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I wish I had never HEARD the term gay rights but I am glad that this has been repealed as ANY American that wants to serve their country should be free to do so.
That has ALWAYS been the case; "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" never prohibited anyone from serving in the military.
 
I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I saw that recruiting officers can legally deem citizens unfit for duty if they aren't Christian. May not be true, but it was a legit article I saw.
 
I'm glad DADT was repealed.

There will be problems because no matter what I hope, there are homophobes in the military. Most in the military however, no matter if they do or do not support the repeal, follow protocol and are good people who will do what is right for the unit.

Over time, the issues will diminish.

But my guess is that for the moment, most gays will remain secretive regarding their sexuality. I would be surprised if one in ten gays come out. I think the comparison to sports is apt. I know of one NBA player who is gay (or Bi) because a good friend of mine has been with him. And I am sure there are many gays in the NBA, NFL, MLB ... but the fact that none are openly gay even though there are no rules against it, shows that coming out in this type of situation is very difficult and that they most likely fear non-sanctioned repercussions.
 
Well said, GOD. The sooner we get started the better, though. It was tough on black fellas when the military was integrated years ago, and now nobody thinks twice about it.
 
It's not the business of anyone here. Besides, even if I said it was player X, it would just be a claim from some schumck on the internet.
 
It's not the business of anyone here. Besides, even if I said it was player X, it would just be a claim from some schumck on the internet.

you're not a schmuck. don't be so hard on yourself.
 
bumped b/c I know many of you are interested.

This article provides a decent, open-source look at the military training going on for this. I did the training this week for unit OICs and commanders, and it's identical to what the Marines in the article seem to have gone through. I can't give more quotes b/c they're protected behind a PKI firewall, but it's a start.

From what I've heard, timeline for this is completion of training by June, and President and CJCS signing off 60 days later (barring any issues of "readiness", which wouldn't even be brought up even if there were some).

Some quotes:
"These changes are about policy," states briefing material for Marine instructors. "The policy is about adherence to orders and behavior, and not about beliefs."
For those who oppose the new policy, the Marine Corps says it doesn't expect anyone to change their personal beliefs. Still, everyone must follow orders.
"You remain obligated to follow orders that involve interaction with others who are gay or lesbian, even if an unwillingness to do so is based on strong, sincerely held moral or religious beliefs," the training material states.
Chaplains who preach at base chapels that homosexuality is a sin are entitled to express their religious beliefs during worship.

Another one that wasn't posted in the article, but resonated a bit with me is the contention that, under the UCMJ and manual for Courts-Martial, the contract one signed when they signed up did not have any clause or promise that the environment you signed up for would be in effect for the duration of your service. Early terminations or retirements are not being permitted b/c of this, and if you have problems with it you can either comply with orders or go to a court-martial. The exception is for chaplains...if they have their ecclesiastical authority (the Catholic church, or the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever) remove the church's endorsement to serve the military from a chaplain, the chaplain can be administratively (vice punitively) separated without much of a problem.
 
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The two stories are just counterpoints to those thinking that their definition is right. As far as the military and government are concerned, "homosexuality" doesn't have anything to do with thoughts or feelings or attractions. It's based on physical acts.

If so, it seems redundant to mention sexual orientation at all. Why even refer to it as hetero and homo rather than simply sex?

And why are the penalties harsher for homosexuals?
 
That has ALWAYS been the case; "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" never prohibited anyone from serving in the military.

It quite obviously prohibits many, many people from serving in the military.

For instance, anyone who "asks" and anyone who "tells".
 
Dont ask dont tell was a fucked up deal. I am glad to see that go away.

For a different point than most have considered, it now will protect straight guys and gals as well as those that are gay.

Example, I went in the service in the mid 70s. There was no official dont ask policy but as you might understand, it was not talked about, and most talk was scoffed at.

I was in boot camp and was repeatedly hit on by the drill instructor, the guy would follow me around, call me into private discussions, offer me favors if I would take an interest in him etc. Not a comfortable situation for a kid to be in.

I talked to several other DIs and most scoffed, the one guy that would admit that he was aware, told me how to change graduating classes. This was no easy feat, it caused me to have to have surgery (needed at some point, but no big deal) and then start Boot all over again.

Yeah, you give up most of your rights when you join, but with the subject now in the open, there should be less of a problem for all.

And as a post script..As a horny 18 year old a unisex shower would have been a bad idea lol
 
That has ALWAYS been the case; "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" never prohibited anyone from serving in the military.

Sure it did. What about someone who was openly gay especially in the public eye? I did interviews with Out and The Advocate about 10 years ago. If, say, 3 or 4 years ago, I decided that I wanted to join the military, I wouldn't have been allowed to.


Bump for it REALLY being over.

Amen.
 
This thread was started a year ago. What took so long?
 
for one, you had to train about 2M members of the military face-to-face and report completion.

To speculate, it was probably also to make sure that there were infrastructure and programs in place to support the repeal. Things like counseling, legal, etc.
 
for one, you had to train about 2M members of the military face-to-face and report completion.

To speculate, it was probably also to make sure that there were infrastructure and programs in place to support the repeal. Things like counseling, legal, etc.

What a waste of time and money.
 
We serve at the pleasure of our civilian masters. :)
 

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