FIRE CRONIN

[Tince]

Just having a player be the star of a team for 8+ years on its own is rare. Golden State and Portland are the only current NBA teams that have this.

Its so odd how that happens, its almost as if NBA players peak at a very young age like 27 or something.

Agreed. Having someone as loyal to a team as Dame is not something you can easily replicate. Even if the Blazers knew they could draft a player slightly better than Dame, you've pointed out that getting that player to stay in to his prime is even harder. Another reason against blowing it up in my opinion.

If I cut the number from 8 years with a lesser running mate than CJ, to 5 years, I'm still struggling to come up with someone. How badly Olshey botched Dame's prime has been historic.

 

[Tince]

Pierce with 2 other guys from the top 75 team and a 21 year old savant named Rondo running the show. Agreed thats a weird comparison, but if Dame was in a situation resembling that right now, even as a ball dominant lead his stats wouldn't be expected to be nearly as gaudy

STOMP

Agreed on all fronts. I've be calling for doing what it takes to surround Dame with all-star talent for a long time.

 

[blazerfan11]

Listen to Duncan’s eval of sharpe:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7zCByjn66nwmDgZKZsCKex?si=_oGc4KmqRyekrBdN_CyfGA&t=995&context=spotify:collectionodcasts:episodes

Thanks! Here's most of what Duncan said:

Let me give you the guy that I think has the highest upside. and I don't even think it's close. Shaedon Sharpe.
Here's how I went about it. obviously there's risk there because we haven't seen him do it at a high level .

Let's say we took Shaedon Sharpe what we saw from him in high school, and compared it to all the other guys at the same point in their careers. He's probably the best of any of these guys right? So to me, Sharpe, I went back and looked at it, very good measurements for a shooting guard, 6'5", 6'11" wingspan huge hands you know pretty much a nuclear level of finisher at the basket. If he's not Anthony Edwards and Jalen Green, he's very close to that level.

I would say his skill level at the same age was higher than either of those guys, dribbler and a shooter, footwork, getting the step backs. Maybe not quite the same level of first step as those guys to the basket. and maybe hasn't shown quite the same level of competitiveness maybe, as at least Jalen Green. All these guys had some questions about their defense and their floor game and stuff.

And Sharpe hasn't been a number one options, he's a late bloomer relatively so. But his passing game is about the same as Green and Edwards. But if you look at that physical profile and go back in the history of like that combination of physical profile and dribbling and shooting skill. Not many guys as you go back had that at this type of age. Everyone who has had this level of athleticism and this level of skill worked out to be really good. I have him and Banchero in my top tier, and I might even have him number one.

 

[TBpup]

I'm fine with people considering trading Dame. I would trade Dame for the right package. I wouldn't trade Dame for a blind, draft pick rebuild, in hopes those picks turn into 1-2 stars.

I don't subscribe to the team success as an evaluation of how good/bad Dame is like you seem to be. Name the last franchise to have a player as good as Dame for 8+ years who never paired him with a better #2 than CJ. The Blazers lack of post-season success has little to do with Dame and a lot more to do with the roster construction since 2016.

I would submit Luka has already done more in a shorter amount of time with less talent around him.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Agreed. Having someone as loyal to a team as Dame is not something you can easily replicate. Even if the Blazers knew they could draft a player slightly better than Dame, you've pointed out that getting that player to stay in to his prime is even harder. Another reason against blowing it up in my opinion.

If I cut the number from 8 years with a lesser running mate than CJ, to 5 years, I'm still struggling to come up with someone. How badly Olshey botched Dame's prime has been historic.

There is Garnett and Mitch Richmond.

You could actually make an argument for Drexler. I'm a huge Porter fan, but I don't think he was clearly superior to CJ. Those Blazers teams were all pretty even from depth chart 2-7.

Ewing, David Robinson (years prior to Duncan). Pau Gasol. Theres probably many others. I'd say lots of NBA teams actually go 5-8 years without having a 2nd option as good as CJ. The more rare feat is Dame being an all star level player for that period of time.

Neil 2016 free agency debacle set this franchise back many years. Also I'd argue Terry even with yes his faults, was a pretty good coach at masking many of Neil's flaws in roster construction.

 

[STOMP]

100% agree every draft is different. I think it's somewhat difficult to project the quality of a draft more than 2 years away for various reasons.

mostly because the guys who're going to be drafted are 16-17 so things are very much in flux.

Who do you specifically love in this draft?

Tell you what, let me dream of the OKC picks + Portlands = Smith, Duren & Sochan to pair with Ant & Hart.

My take on this draft is it's better then average... a lesser version of last years lacking the obvious early superstar talent but deep featuring lots of potential stars & solid players.

STOMP

 

[Tince]

I would submit Luka has already done more in a shorter amount of time with less talent around him.

Disagree with the done more. Porzingis and CJ are probably similar comps for #2 options, with CJ a slight lean.

I have no doubt there have players in their prime who have had a year or two where their GM failed to provide their star a #2 not as good as CJ, but over many years, it doesn't happen. 8 years, I still haven't seen an example. If Cuban fails to put a better #2 than CJ next to Luka from age 23-30, I'll glady eat crow. I'll bet he will though.

 

[Tince]

There is Garnett and Mitch Richmond.

You could actually make an argument for Drexler. I'm a huge Porter fan, but I don't think he was clearly superior to CJ. Those Blazers teams were all pretty even from depth chart 2-7.

Ewing, David Robinson (years prior to Duncan). Pau Gasol. Theres probably many others. I'd say lots of NBA teams actually go 5-8 years without having a 2nd option as good as CJ. The more rare feat is Dame being an all star level player for that period of time.

Neil 2016 free agency debacle set this franchise back many years. Also I'd argue Terry even with yes his faults, was a pretty good coach at masking many of Neil's flaws in roster construction.

Garnett had Marbury, a two-time all-star who average 24ppg when the league was scoring like 90ppg. That would be like CJ scoring 30ppg next to Dame. Marbury >> CJ. CJ is closer to KG's #3 option Wally Szczerbiak (all-star) than he was to Starbury

Mitch Richmond certainly fits the bill in terms of being provided horrible talent. He doesn't come close to Dame talent wise. But let's say I give you that. One players, on one of the worst organizations in the league, over the last 3 decades has been failed near the level we have failed Dame. Further proof of the historic failure we've done to Dame.

 

[Tince]

mostly because the guys who're going to be drafted are 16-17 so things are very much in flux.


Tell you what, let me dream of the OKC picks + Portlands = Smith, Duren & Sochan to pair with Ant & Hart.

My take on this draft is it's better then average... a lesser version of last years lacking the obvious early superstar talent but deep featuring lots of potential stars & solid players.

STOMP

I like it! Intersting combo for sure. I wouldn't trade Dame for those 2 picks. I'm not 100% sold on Duren or Sochan, but I can see why anyone would be.

 

[TBpup]

Disagree with the done more. Porzingis and CJ are probably similar comps for #2 options, with CJ a slight lean.

I have no doubt there have players in their prime who have had a year or two where their GM failed to provide their star a #2 not as good as CJ, but over many years, it doesn't happen. 8 years, I still haven't seen an example. If Cuban fails to put a better #2 than CJ next to Luka from age 23-30, I'll glady eat crow. I'll bet he will though.

Luka is just now the age Dame was his rookie year, yet he has already been a 1st Team All-NBA player and has wins in the Conference Finals. His team this last year outside of him was a collection of 'meh' and he won those Conf Finals games w/o KP.

 

[STOMP]

It's better to compare Jabari Smith to a taller Klay Thompson. no need to use Rashard Lewis.

I like a taller Glen Rice

STOMP

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Luka is just now the age Dame was his rookie year, yet he has already been a 1st Team All-NBA player and has wins in the Conference Finals. His team this last year outside of him was a collection of 'meh' and he won those Conf Finals games w/o KP.

Yeah Luka is in the Giannis perennial MVP tier. Dame has never been at that level.

 

[Tince]

Luka is just now the age Dame was his rookie year, yet he has already been a 1st Team All-NBA player and has wins in the Conference Finals. His team this last year outside of him was a collection of 'meh' and he won those Conf Finals games w/o KP.

My point was never who is better Dame vs Luka. I agree with you that Luka is better.

My point continues to be that 8 years after Portland realized Dame is the man, the have failed to provide him a solid #2 option. If Dallas goes another 6 years without providing Luka a better #2 than Portland has provided Dame, they will become only the third team in 3 decades to fail their superstar in that way and to dat. I'm willing to bet that won't be the case. This is why I'm not comfortable pointing to team success as the ultimate measure of Dame's talent. We've failed Dame in a way that no organization has done in 25 years. IMO, Steph has zero titles with the supporting cast Dame has had the last 8 years (and I think Steph is better than Dame).

 

[SlyPokerCat]

My point was never who is better Dame vs Luka. I agree with you that Luka is better.

My point continues to be that 8 years after Portland realized Dame is the man, the have failed to provide him a solid #2 option. If Dallas goes another 6 years without providing Luka a better #2 than Portland has provided Dame, they will become only the third team in 3 decades to fail their superstar in that way and to dat. I'm willing to bet that won't be the case. This is why I'm not comfortable pointing to team success as the ultimate measure of Dame's talent. We've failed Dame in a way that no organization has done in 25 years. IMO, Steph has zero titles with the supporting cast Dame has had the last 8 years (and I think Steph is better than Dame).

Aldridge was an elite #2 option in his prime. Olshey just got caught with his pants down when he left. That never should have happened. He should have been traded for assets before walking.

 

[Tince]

Yeah Luka is in the Giannis perennial MVP tier. Dame has never been at that level.

100%.... but this doesn't change the fact that no organization in many decades has had a player of Dame's abilities (a tier lower than Luka) and failed to support him with better talent. This is why aligning Portland's team success as the key measure to Dame's individual value as a player makes little since to me.

 

[MickZagger]

My point was never who is better Dame vs Luka. I agree with you that Luka is better.

My point continues to be that 8 years after Portland realized Dame is the man, the have failed to provide him a solid #2 option. If Dallas goes another 6 years without providing Luka a better #2 than Portland has provided Dame, they will become only the third team in 3 decades to fail their superstar in that way and to dat. I'm willing to bet that won't be the case. This is why I'm not comfortable pointing to team success as the ultimate measure of Dame's talent. We've failed Dame in a way that no organization has done in 25 years. IMO, Steph has zero titles with the supporting cast Dame has had the last 8 years (and I think Steph is better than Dame).

Christian Wood is arguably a better #2 than Lillard has ever had.

 

[Tince]

Aldridge was an elite #2 option in his prime. Olshey just got caught with his pants down when he left. That never should have happened. He should have been traded for assets before walking.

100%... I think this team would have had far more success had they not lost LMA for nothing. It's made the last 7-8 years (whtaever it's been) so painful.

 

[Tince]

Christian Wood is arguably a better #2 than Lillard has ever had.

I'm not that low on CJ, but the fact that you can even make that claim paints a picture of how bad it's been!

 

[MickZagger]

I'm not that low on CJ, but the fact that you can even make that claim paints a picture of how bad it's been!

CJ is an undersized, play no defense , shoot first 2 guard. Those type of players have been a dime a dozen for years.

A glorified Tony Delk

 

[SharpesTriumph]

100%.... but this doesn't change the fact that no organization in many decades has had a player of Dame's abilities (a tier lower than Luka) and failed to support him with better talent. This is why aligning Portland's team success as the key measure to Dame's individual value as a player makes little since to me.

I don't know about this, I'd say many teams reach a point where they fail to surround their best player with a second option better than CJ. The difference is when the team realizes they are at that point for a few years, they realize they can't realistically contend soon; well then they trade away their star to get assets and rebuild.

 

[Tince]

I don't know about this, I'd say many teams reach a point where they fail to surround their best player with a second option better than CJ. The difference is when the team realizes they are at that point for a few years, they realize they can't realistically contend soon; well then they trade away their star to get assets and rebuild.

Please share an example, in the last two decades of a team with a player as good or better than Dame, who never played with a #2 option better than CJ. I'm not talking for 1-2 years, I'm talking 6+ years. I haven't seen an example.

Punting for the sake of punting in hopes next time will be better is probably a worse strategy than hanging onto a HOF player until the age of 32, IMO.

 

[blazerkor]

Please share an example, in the last two decades of a team with a player as good or better than Dame, who never played with a #2 option better than CJ. I'm not talking for 1-2 years, I'm talking 6+ years. I haven't seen an example.

Punting for the sake of punting in hopes next time will be better is probably a worse strategy than hanging onto a HOF player until the age of 32, IMO.

It's also important that we're not just talking about a teams best player we're talking about an all nba first team player who has been an all nba second teamer on four other occasions.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Please share an example, in the last two decades of a team with a player as good or better than Dame, who never played with a #2 option better than CJ. I'm not talking for 1-2 years, I'm talking 6+ years. I haven't seen an example.

Punting for the sake of punting in hopes next time will be better is probably a worse strategy than hanging onto a HOF player until the age of 32, IMO.

Who was LeBrons best teammate his first stint in Cleveland?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Please share an example, in the last two decades of a team with a player as good or better than Dame, who never played with a #2 option better than CJ. I'm not talking for 1-2 years, I'm talking 6+ years. I haven't seen an example.

Punting for the sake of punting in hopes next time will be better is probably a worse strategy than hanging onto a HOF player until the age of 32, IMO.

Another way to look at this might be to first list the last 20 players that are as good or better than Dame, and stayed with a team for 6+ years. Then see what teams paired them with better and worse teammates than Portland.

 

[blazerfan11]

Who was LeBrons best teammate his first stint in Cleveland?

Booby Gibson?

 

[blazerkor]

Who was LeBrons best teammate his first stint in Cleveland?

Alright that right there is the perfect example of the same kind of managerial malpractice that Dame has had to deal with since LaMarcus was allowed to walk, leaving us empty handed and Dame without a legitamate complementary second option for the next 6 seasons.


I liked and unliked and then liked your reply about five times. I don't think that gives you five extra likes but that's how much I liked the post.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Alright that right there is the perfect example of the same kind of managerial malpractice that Dame has had to deal with since LaMarcus was allowed to walk, leaving us empty handed and Dame without a legitamate complementary second option for the next 6 seasons.


I liked and unliked and then liked your reply about five times. I don't think that gives you five extra likes but that's how much I liked the post.

Is that how these guys get their likes?

 

[blazerkor]

Is that how these guys get their likes?

Like I said I don't know if it works and that's the only time I've done it.

 

[Tince]

Who was LeBrons best teammate his first stint in Cleveland?

Probably Zydrunas Ilgauskas, 2 time all-star... and as we know, that wasn't enough to keep him happy. Dame has been too loyal to Portland if anything.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Only a masochist would bump a thread he doesn't like!

Good day to be a Blazer fan folks!