First Sheed, then ZBo, now Aldridge...

[blue9]

He's not the 2nd best in the league - not by a long shot. See my argument about PPG - it's meaningless if it doesn't lead to wins. If you have an argument for what makes him so great, other than just pointing to his PPG, I'd be interested to hear it - because I have not seen any particular skill set that makes him standout from 15-20 other PFs in the league.

And how else do you suggest we improve our bench? We can't trade any of them for better players. The only players that have any value are our starters and MAYBE Meyers Leonard. We're not trading Lillard (though I wouldn't even be against that). We're not trading - and we can't trade - Nic. That leaves LMA, Hickson, and Wes. Of those players LMA is the least valuable to our team and has the most value on the trade market. Trading him would net us multiple players, thereby bolstering our bench without adversely affecting our starting line-up.

 

[blue9]

Noknobs - what's being an all-star have to do with it?

 

[noknobs]

Noknobs - what's being an all-star have to do with it?

I hope you're joking.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

What, in one of the worst upcoming drafts in recent years without knowing any positioning? Trade away a 27 year old PF who's probably the 2nd best in the league right now for these draft picks and more bad bench players?

Great strategery.

I guess it depends on whether you trust the pundits when it comes to strength of the draft analysis. It's far from a perfect science.

The point is: By the time the 'rebuild' is effectual, LMA will be gone. Get what you can while his value is high. Whether his hip or back is an issue, or he is just disinterested in putting out max effort for rebuild mode, he is not playing at the same level as last year.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Noknobs - what's being an all-star have to do with it?

blue9 - Take a look at thread http://sportstwo.com/threads/225411-Post-Game-A-clear-tank-job-is-in-full-swing when you get a chance.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

He's not the 2nd best in the league - not by a long shot. See my argument about PPG - it's meaningless if it doesn't lead to wins. If you have an argument for what makes him so great, other than just pointing to his PPG, I'd be interested to hear it - because I have not seen any particular skill set that makes him standout from 15-20 other PFs in the league.

And how else do you suggest we improve our bench? We can't trade any of them for better players. The only players that have any value are our starters and MAYBE Meyers Leonard. We're not trading Lillard (though I wouldn't even be against that). We're not trading - and we can't trade - Nic. That leaves LMA, Hickson, and Wes. Of those players LMA is the least valuable to our team and has the most value on the trade market. Trading him would net us multiple players, thereby bolstering our bench without adversely affecting our starting line-up.

name the top 5 PFs in the league.

We can improve our bench by waiving the shit we have there and signing free agents. To say that LA is the "least valuable" of our tradable players is laughable. And it would greatly affect our starting lineup. Hickson is best as a bench player, an energy guy off the bench. We get a center and are able to put him in the second unit, it strenthens the team more than trading Aldridge away.

aldridge is FAR from the problem. Its our bench.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I guess it depends on whether you trust the pundits when it comes to strength of the draft analysis. It's far from a perfect science.

The point is: By the time the 'rebuild' is effectual, LMA will be gone. Get what you can while his value is high. Whether his hip or back is an issue, or he is just disinterested in putting out max effort for rebuild mode, he is not playing at the same level as last year.

look, all we need is a Center and bench and we'll be fine. Bench is horrible....management knows that but they're not going to veer off the path and do something stupid like trade LA for crap. We have cap room and can probably sign a player if need be.

Everyone is freaking out like they always do and continuing the bizarre blazers fan mentality of stockpiling as many young players and draft picks as possible and overvaluing their own evaluations of these young crappy players. And you see our bench, its a collection of young players and draft picks that people thought has potential...but it doesn't.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

I hope you're joking.

Jamal Magloire and Wally Szczerbiak were All-Stars as well in this league. Now I not putting LMA with them specifically but being an All-Star (certainly a 1-time All-Star) doesn't amount to much.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Jamal Magloire and Wally Szczerbiak were All-Stars as well in this league. Now I not putting LMA with them specifically but being an All-Star (certainly a 1-time All-Star) doesn't amount to much.

Then let me know, which PFs in the league right now are better than Aldridge.

 

[noknobs]

He's not the 2nd best in the league - not by a long shot. See my argument about PPG - it's meaningless if it doesn't lead to wins. If you have an argument for what makes him so great, other than just pointing to his PPG, I'd be interested to hear it - because I have not seen any particular skill set that makes him standout from 15-20 other PFs in the league.

A lot of "experts" disagree with you about Aldridge. You apparently don't care about PPG, or being an all-star when judging how good someone is, so I'd be interested to see your current top 5 rankings of PF's... I consider Love to be #1 at the moment, and his team has the same amount of wins as we do... this is a team game, with our current roster it's not going to happen no matter how good Aldridge, Batum and Lillard play. And prepare yourself because it'll only get worse this year as they start to wear down from playing so many minutes. Our team lost Oden and Roy to injuries, that's not something a team bounces back from quickly. Anyone with intelligence had no expectations this year, so forigive me if I think panicking after 15 games and trading our best player sounds stupid.

And how else do you suggest we improve our bench? We can't trade any of them for better players. The only players that have any value are our starters and MAYBE Meyers Leonard. We're not trading Lillard (though I wouldn't even be against that). We're not trading - and we can't trade - Nic. That leaves LMA, Hickson, and Wes. Of those players LMA is the least valuable to our team and has the most value on the trade market. Trading him would net us multiple players, thereby bolstering our bench without adversely affecting our starting line-up.

We can improve by adding role players in free agency, draft picks since we'll be a lottery team once again, and by getting all our rookies/Euros another year of experience. Not by trading our best players who are still young and in their prime.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Do people never learn? At what point do people acknowledge that his hip condition is a matter for concern and that it impacts his value?

LMA is 27 going on 47. He is 2-3 years from following Roy and Oden to the rocking chair league. Who cares if he was an all-star in the past - he isn't in the present and won't be in the future.

 

[HailBlazers]

Then let me know, which PFs in the league right now are better than Aldridge.

Waiting....

LMA is 27 going on 47.

GTFO.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Do people never learn? At what point do people acknowledge that his hip condition is a matter for concern and that it impacts his value?

LMA is 27 going on 47. He is 2-3 years from following Roy and Oden to the rocking chair league. Who cares if he was an all-star in the past - he isn't in the present and won't be in the future.

AND THERE ARE IMPENDING DOG FIGHTING FEDERAL CHARGES COMING FOR ZBO ANY DAY NOW! :MARIS61:

Like I said, name NBA Power Forwards that are currently better than LaMarcus Aldridge.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Then let me know, which PFs in the league right now are better than Aldridge.

I don't have a big problem with Aldridge. I am pointing out being an All-Star is not what you should be measured by because in many cases it doesn't mean much. To answer your question though Love, Duncan (yes, still), and Randolph (we are talking on the court not as a person) are better in my mind and their PERs back that up. And Davis is likely to be better as soon as next year. There are others right there but I wouldn't say better then LMA although you could argue each of them 1 way or another, these guys would include Millsap, Griffin, and Garnett.

 

[noknobs]

Jamal Magloire and Wally Szczerbiak were All-Stars as well in this league. Now I not putting LMA with them specifically but being an All-Star (certainly a 1-time All-Star) doesn't amount to much.

What a great argument. Lets use the exceptions to the rule as the standard. Those guys are done, Aldridge is still playing, so the fact he's only made it one time isn't relevant. Especially since that was last year.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

look, all we need is a Center and bench and we'll be fine. Bench is horrible....management knows that but they're not going to veer off the path and do something stupid like trade LA for crap. We have cap room and can probably sign a player if need be.

Everyone is freaking out like they always do and continuing the bizarre blazers fan mentality of stockpiling as many young players and draft picks as possible and overvaluing their own evaluations of these young crappy players. And you see our bench, its a collection of young players and draft picks that people thought has potential...but it doesn't.

That's certainly one way to look at it. and it makes sense if those elements can be added while LMA is still on the team. As I said, I doubt he re-ups with the Blazers.

You don't know how drafting players will turn out, unless you can see the future.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I don't have a big problem with Aldridge. I am pointing out being an All-Star is not what you should be measured by because in many cases it doesn't mean much. To answer your question though Love, Duncan (yes, still), and Randolph (we are talking on the court not as a person) are better in my mind and their PERs back that up. And Davis is likely to be better as soon as next year. There are others right there but I wouldn't say better then LMA although you could argue each of them 1 way or another, these guys would include Millsap, Griffin, and Garnett.

Davis is a center.

Duncan has 2 years left and isn't better than Aldridge is currently. ZBO and Love are probably up there....no way on Milsap, Griffin or Garnett. So at worst, he's the 3rd best PF in the league and has a better historical health than Love and ZBO.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

And I told y'all about dumping ZBO the first time around (Imaginary Cap Space) and see how shitty that turned out for us? And he's apparantly the second best PF in the league? Remember the justification was also to allow Aldridge to become better than ZBO? has he?

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Davis is a center.

Duncan has 2 years left and isn't better than Aldridge is currently. ZBO and Love are probably up there....no way on Milsap, Griffin or Garnett. So at worst, he's the 3rd best PF in the league and has a better historical health than Love and ZBO.

Davis is categorized at a PF by the NBA. Duncan you certainly wouldn't take over LMA when starting a team now because he won't be around long but he is currently outplaying LMA. You asked who is better. If you want to go off of hypothetical on who can be better than LMA probably beats them all. But he isn't playing better then the guys I listed.

As I said though, I not debating that LMA isn't good. He is very good. I debating that throwing out an argument saying he is an All-Star doesn't mean anything. I think you have me crossed with someone else on the LMA hate. I have none for him.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

And honestly, the problem is the bench. This could be addressed by signing guys out there....but blazers management seems to want to see where the young guys are at....they're probably not in panic mode right now, just evaluating slowly as to whom to keep.....guys out there like Eddy Curry, Troy Murphy, etc are still out there that can help close some gaps, but they probably don't want to waive anyone yet.

 

[noknobs]

As I said though, I not debating that LMA isn't good. He is very good. I debating that throwing out an argument saying he is an All-Star doesn't mean anything. I think you have me crossed with someone else on the LMA hate. I have none for him.

The fact he was an all-star isn't my argument. I was responding to the fact that getting 'a starter, a bench player and a pick' for a guy who made the all-star game last year isn't the smartest approach in the NBA when said player isn't asking to be traded and is still in his prime. That's not how you win in the NBA. All that aside, making the all-star team does mean something. It certaintly means more than PER, unless you think Eric Bledsoe is better than Russell Westbrook (since we're using exceptions to the rule to make points)... Aldridge was rehabbing in the off-season, and now his back is banged up, are you really surprised he's not producing like he did last year at the moment?

 

[blue9]

PFs who are better then, as good, or close enough to being as good as LMA:

Love*
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Millsap*
Lee*
West
Pau
ZBo
Ibaka*
Scola
Bargnani (same player!)
Bosh
Boozer
Cousins*

And I'm sure that once some of the young guys start getting more minutes and devlopment they'll be in the conversation too, and each year there'll be more PFs coming into the league:
Favors*
Davis*
Robinson?*

Now please note that I don't want all of these players over LMA. The * ones are guys I'd possibly be interested in. Nor do I think they have the same value - there's often a big different between a players value and their ability, so don't go confusing the two for being the same thing. But all of these guys have skills that are comparable or better than the skills that LMA has. No, they don't have the same PPG average, or maybe they haven't been named to an all-star team. But as I've made abundantly clear - those things have very little bearing on a player's talent level.

I understand that people will scoff and the inclusion of players like Scola, Lee, Boozer, etc - but if you actually watch what these players are capable of (dribbling, passing, rebounding, defending) and not focus on their stats and compare it to what LMA is (or ISN'T) capable of doing (and not his PPG) then their inclusion should be justified.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

The fact he was an all-star isn't my argument. I was responding to the fact that getting 'a starter, a bench player and a pick' for a guy who made the all-star game last year isn't the smartest approach in the NBA when said player isn't asking to be traded and is still in his prime. All that aside, making the all-star team does mean something. It certaintly means more than PER, unless you think Eric Bledsoe is better than Russell Westbrook... Aldridge was rehabbing in the off-season, and now his back is banged up, are you really surprised he's not producing like he did last year at the moment?

Yes I am surprised because he would be imo if he was used like last year. He is now playing the Dirk role when he is not a good fit for it. Last year, probably for the first time ever, he played in the paint and was rewarded with it with that All-Star birth you keep referencing it. Not much of a chance he sees it this year imo and that is not because of any injury.

And PER is a valuable tool. You shouldn't use it as your only tool but if you take into account minutes played (which is why you can dismiss Bledsoe) then it does a great job at showing you who is producing better.

 

[noknobs]

PFs who are better then, as good, or close enough to being as good as LMA:

Love*
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Millsap*
Lee*
West
Pau
ZBo
Ibaka*
Scola
Bargnani (same player!)
Bosh
Boozer
Cousins*

And I'm sure that once some of the young guys start getting more minutes and devlopment they'll be in the conversation too, and each year there'll be more PFs coming into the league:
Favors*
Davis*
Robinson?*

Now please note that I don't want all of these players over LMA. The * ones are guys I'd possibly be interested in. Nor do I think they have the same value - there's often a big different between a players value and their ability, so don't go confusing the two for being the same thing. But all of these guys have skills that are comparable or better than the skills that LMA has. No, they don't have the same PPG average, or maybe they haven't been named to an all-star team. But as I've made abundantly clear - those things have very little bearing on a player's talent level.

I understand that people will scoff and the inclusion of players like Scola, Lee, Boozer, etc - but if you actually watch what these players are capable of (dribbling, passing, rebounding, defending) and not focus on their stats and compare it to what LMA is (or ISN'T) capable of doing (and not his PPG) then their inclusion should be justified.

Hahahah... Okay, that tells me who I'm arguing with and I think I'll stop wasting my time.

 

[blue9]

I'm not concerned about his "production", I'm concerned about his skill set. And his skills just aren't all that great - he's lacking in skill in A LOT of areas.

About the only stat that I think stands well on its own is FG%. Other stats - even RPG - are skewed by so many other factors. But FG% is a fairly pure stat.

I definitely agree with you that PER is a worthless stat.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Hahahah... Okay, that tells me who I'm arguing with and I think I'll stop wasting my time.

Blue9 has never denied that he dislikes LMA the player. He doesn't hide it. He has some great stats to back it up however. He has posted those over in the OregonLive forum through the years.

 

[noknobs]

Yes I am surprised because he would be imo if he was used like last year.

So are you wanting to trade him because of coaching decisions?

 

[blue9]

Because you can't refute it? Way to leave out the heft of my argument and only quote that which serves your purpose...

 

[KeepOnRollin]

So are you wanting to trade him because of coaching decisions?

Hello? Are we going in circles here? I am not wanting to trade him anymore then any other player (we should always be open to deals). Once again you are confusing me with someone else. I have been talking about him in the All-Star game not trading him.

But if you are asking about the coach I do think he needs to re-valuate his strategy.

 

[blue9]

Thanks, KoR. One of these days I'll get around to putting together a comprehensive, numbers-based post on why LMA just isn't very good... Just haven't had time since joining S2.

But I suspect that eventually (2-3 years) people will come around to my point of view on LMA just like they did on McMillan. How many of you guys thought Nate was a good coach 3-4 years ago, and just recently changed your mind?