For anyone thinking Israel is showing restraint and only targeting Hamas

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
When you kidnap and kill three innocent teenagers, you lost all right to expect "restraint."
 
both countries look like assholes who don't know how to be civil.
 
Stevenson said:
When you kidnap and kill three innocent teenagers, you lost all right to expect "restraint."
Click to expand...

What proof has Israel provided to suggest Hamas is responsible for this? If Hamas are indeed terrorists, don't you think they would take responsibility?

Do you find the same outrage when innocent Palestinians are murdered? I guess you can't since the American media doesn't really shine the light on that when it happens. They didn't even cover the American teenage who got beat up by the Israeli army.
 
AmirIcon said:
What proof has Israel provided to suggest Hamas is responsible for this? If Hamas are indeed terrorists, don't you think they would take responsibility?

Do you find the same outrage when innocent Palestinians are murdered? I guess you can't since the American media doesn't really shine the light on that when it happens. They didn't even cover the American teenage who got beat up by the Israeli army.
Click to expand...

This kind of mock Internet outrage is so much BS. Right, I am not upset when innocent Palestinians are murdered. I have been to Palestine (Nablus), I saw first hand what kind of horrid conditions they live under. That doesn't excuse he fact that THIS TIME, the violence cycle began when the three teenagers were kidnapped.

A pox on both their houses.

Duh.
 
Stevenson said:
This kind of mock Internet outrage is so much BS. Right, I am not upset when innocent Palestinians are murdered. I have been to Palestine (Nablus), I saw first hand what kind of horrid conditions they live under. That doesn't excuse he fact that THIS TIME, the violence cycle began when the three teenagers were kidnapped.

A pox on both their houses.

Duh.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you can acknowledge the porous conditions Palestinians are kept in. Heck, even the UN has been saying that the Israelis have been stealing water from the Palestinians amongst other things. But the notion that the violence really ever stopped for it to begin again by the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers seems off. Again, Israel has provided no proof that Hamas was behind the attack.
 
I agree there is no "proof" that Hamas did it, EXCEPT that three Israeli teens were kidnapped in the West Bank and murdered. In the law there is a saying, "Res ipsa loquiter" - Latin for "The thing speaks for itself."

Of course some Palestinian did it. The thing speaks for itself. The lack of overt proof doesnt mean we can't deduce what happened. But more abhorrent maybe is the revenge kidnapping and murder of the Palestinian youth.

I'm a Jew. I have my preconceived notions. But many of them died when I went to Nablus.

They are all insane over there.
 
Stevenson said:
I agree there is no "proof" that Hamas did it, EXCEPT that three Israeli teens were kidnapped in the West Bank and murdered. In the law there is a saying, "Res ipsa loquiter" - Latin for "The thing speaks for itself."

Of course some Palestinian did it. The thing speaks for itself. The lack of overt proof doesnt mean we can't deduce what happened. But more abhorrent maybe is the revenge kidnapping and murder of the Palestinian youth.

I'm a Jew. I have my preconceived notions. But many of them died when I went to Nablus.

They are all insane over there.
Click to expand...

It's all really atrocious. I'd love to hear more about your experiences and how some of your preconceived notions changed when you went to Nablus. Unfortunately, there is nothing in our media accurately reporting on what's happening over there.

To me, I think it's disgusting that our media has turned this to a war of religion. It so clearly is not. There are plenty of good people on both sides speaking out against IDF and Hamas but we don't get to hear them.
 
Another point of view, from Charles Krauthammmer, with whom I rarely agree, but pretty much do this time:

Morally Clarity

Israel accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas keeps firing. Hamas deliberately aims rockets at civilians; Israel painstakingly tries to avoid them, actually telephoning civilians in the area and dropping warning charges, so-called roof knocking.

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity. Yet we routinely hear this Israel-Gaza fighting described as a morally equivalent “cycle of violence.” This is absurd. What possible interest can Israel have in cross-border fighting? Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. And everyone knows Hamas’ proudly self-declared raison d’etre: the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? There is not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli in Gaza. Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted it settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians.

There was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed. To help the Gaza economy, Israel gave the Palestinians its 3,000 greenhouses that had produced fruit and flowers for export. It opened border crossings and encouraged commerce.

The whole idea was to establish the model for two states living peacefully and productively side by side. No one seems to remember that simultaneous with the Gaza withdrawal, Israel dismantled four smaller settlements in the northern West Bank as a clear signal of Israel’s desire to leave the West Bank too and thus achieve an amicable two-state solution.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Why? The rockets can’t even inflict serious damage, being almost uniformly intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome anti-missile system. Even West Bank leader Mahmoud Abbas has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

It makes no sense. Unless you understand, as a Washington Post editorial explained, that the whole point is to draw Israeli counterfire.

This produces dead Palestinians for international television. Which is why Hamas perversely urges its own people not to seek safety when Israel drops leaflets warning of an imminent attack.

To deliberately wage war so that your own people can be telegenically killed is indeed moral and tactical insanity. But it rests on a very rational premise: Given the Orwellian state of the world’s treatment of Israel (see: the U.N.’s grotesque Human Rights Council), fueled by a mix of classic anti-Semitism, near-total historical ignorance and reflexive sympathy for the ostensible Third World underdog, these eruptions featuring Palestinian casualties ultimately undermine support for Israel’s legitimacy and right to self-defense.

In a world of such Kafkaesque ethical inversions, Hamas’ depravity begins to make sense. This is a world in which the Munich massacre is a movie and the murder of Klinghoffer is an opera — both deeply sympathetic to the killers. This is a world in which the U.N. ignores humanity’s worst war criminals while incessantly condemning Israel, a state warred upon for 66 years which nonetheless goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming the very innocents its enemies use as shields.

It’s to the Israelis’ credit that amid all this madness they haven’t lost their moral scruples. Or their nerve. Those outside the region have the minimum obligation, therefore, to expose the madness and speak the truth. Rarely has it been so blindingly clear.

Copyright the Washington Post
 
Murder is murder.

War is state-sponsored murder.

Terrorism is privately-sponsored murder.

All involved all murderers, and nearly all the victims are innocents.

If their gods weren't fiction they'd all be going to hell.
 
Stevenson said:
Another point of view, from Charles Krauthammmer, with whom I rarely agree, but pretty much do this time:

Morally Clarity

Israel accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas keeps firing. Hamas deliberately aims rockets at civilians; Israel painstakingly tries to avoid them, actually telephoning civilians in the area and dropping warning charges, so-called roof knocking.

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity. Yet we routinely hear this Israel-Gaza fighting described as a morally equivalent “cycle of violence.” This is absurd. What possible interest can Israel have in cross-border fighting? Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. And everyone knows Hamas’ proudly self-declared raison d’etre: the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? There is not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli in Gaza. Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted it settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians.

There was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed. To help the Gaza economy, Israel gave the Palestinians its 3,000 greenhouses that had produced fruit and flowers for export. It opened border crossings and encouraged commerce.

The whole idea was to establish the model for two states living peacefully and productively side by side. No one seems to remember that simultaneous with the Gaza withdrawal, Israel dismantled four smaller settlements in the northern West Bank as a clear signal of Israel’s desire to leave the West Bank too and thus achieve an amicable two-state solution.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Why? The rockets can’t even inflict serious damage, being almost uniformly intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome anti-missile system. Even West Bank leader Mahmoud Abbas has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

It makes no sense. Unless you understand, as a Washington Post editorial explained, that the whole point is to draw Israeli counterfire.

This produces dead Palestinians for international television. Which is why Hamas perversely urges its own people not to seek safety when Israel drops leaflets warning of an imminent attack.

To deliberately wage war so that your own people can be telegenically killed is indeed moral and tactical insanity. But it rests on a very rational premise: Given the Orwellian state of the world’s treatment of Israel (see: the U.N.’s grotesque Human Rights Council), fueled by a mix of classic anti-Semitism, near-total historical ignorance and reflexive sympathy for the ostensible Third World underdog, these eruptions featuring Palestinian casualties ultimately undermine support for Israel’s legitimacy and right to self-defense.

In a world of such Kafkaesque ethical inversions, Hamas’ depravity begins to make sense. This is a world in which the Munich massacre is a movie and the murder of Klinghoffer is an opera — both deeply sympathetic to the killers. This is a world in which the U.N. ignores humanity’s worst war criminals while incessantly condemning Israel, a state warred upon for 66 years which nonetheless goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming the very innocents its enemies use as shields.

It’s to the Israelis’ credit that amid all this madness they haven’t lost their moral scruples. Or their nerve. Those outside the region have the minimum obligation, therefore, to expose the madness and speak the truth. Rarely has it been so blindingly clear.

Copyright the Washington Post
Click to expand...

Krauthammmer is rarely wrong so take hart, you must be improving.
 
So... Star Wars really does work.
 
Until one side bulldozes the other, this will go on and on and on. Just like the war on the West. Religion differences create war.
 
Stevenson said:
Another point of view, from Charles Krauthammmer, with whom I rarely agree, but pretty much do this time:

Morally Clarity

Israel accepts an Egyptian-proposed Gaza cease-fire; Hamas keeps firing. Hamas deliberately aims rockets at civilians; Israel painstakingly tries to avoid them, actually telephoning civilians in the area and dropping warning charges, so-called roof knocking.

“Here’s the difference between us,” explains the Israeli prime minister. “We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity. Yet we routinely hear this Israel-Gaza fighting described as a morally equivalent “cycle of violence.” This is absurd. What possible interest can Israel have in cross-border fighting? Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. And everyone knows Hamas’ proudly self-declared raison d’etre: the eradication of Israel and its Jews.

Apologists for Hamas attribute the bloodlust to the Israeli occupation and blockade. Occupation? There is not a soldier, not a settler, not a single Israeli in Gaza. Does no one remember anything? It was less than 10 years ago that worldwide television showed the Israeli army pulling diehard settlers off synagogue roofs in Gaza as Israel uprooted it settlements, expelled its citizens, withdrew its military and turned every inch of Gaza over to the Palestinians.

There was no blockade. On the contrary. Israel wanted this new Palestinian state to succeed. To help the Gaza economy, Israel gave the Palestinians its 3,000 greenhouses that had produced fruit and flowers for export. It opened border crossings and encouraged commerce.

The whole idea was to establish the model for two states living peacefully and productively side by side. No one seems to remember that simultaneous with the Gaza withdrawal, Israel dismantled four smaller settlements in the northern West Bank as a clear signal of Israel’s desire to leave the West Bank too and thus achieve an amicable two-state solution.

And how did the Gaza Palestinians react to being granted by the Israelis what no previous ruler, neither Egyptian, nor British, nor Turkish, had ever given them — an independent territory? First, they demolished the greenhouses. Then they elected Hamas. Then, instead of building a state with its attendant political and economic institutions, they spent the better part of a decade turning Gaza into a massive military base, brimming with terror weapons, to make ceaseless war on Israel.

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. And from which they fire rockets at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Why? The rockets can’t even inflict serious damage, being almost uniformly intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome anti-missile system. Even West Bank leader Mahmoud Abbas has asked: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

It makes no sense. Unless you understand, as a Washington Post editorial explained, that the whole point is to draw Israeli counterfire.

This produces dead Palestinians for international television. Which is why Hamas perversely urges its own people not to seek safety when Israel drops leaflets warning of an imminent attack.

To deliberately wage war so that your own people can be telegenically killed is indeed moral and tactical insanity. But it rests on a very rational premise: Given the Orwellian state of the world’s treatment of Israel (see: the U.N.’s grotesque Human Rights Council), fueled by a mix of classic anti-Semitism, near-total historical ignorance and reflexive sympathy for the ostensible Third World underdog, these eruptions featuring Palestinian casualties ultimately undermine support for Israel’s legitimacy and right to self-defense.

In a world of such Kafkaesque ethical inversions, Hamas’ depravity begins to make sense. This is a world in which the Munich massacre is a movie and the murder of Klinghoffer is an opera — both deeply sympathetic to the killers. This is a world in which the U.N. ignores humanity’s worst war criminals while incessantly condemning Israel, a state warred upon for 66 years which nonetheless goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming the very innocents its enemies use as shields.

It’s to the Israelis’ credit that amid all this madness they haven’t lost their moral scruples. Or their nerve. Those outside the region have the minimum obligation, therefore, to expose the madness and speak the truth. Rarely has it been so blindingly clear.

Copyright the Washington Post
Click to expand...
Pretty well laid out by Krauthammmer. I wouldn't give Isreal the total pass he does, but mostly that's accurate.
 
How much provocation should one country ignore?
 
It's like an abusive father and a moronic step child. The step child hits the father's car with his bike, and seriously dents the bumper (the fifth problem in a month!) And the father breaks the step child's jaw to make sure he learns his lesson.
 
I haven't followed this closely, but I heard on the radio that Israel agree to four cease fires. Hamas then continued to fire rockets at Israel.

If drug cartels were firing rockets from Tiajuana into San Diego, I doubt that our government would show a lot of restraint. I also doubt that many in hear would be lobbying for it, either.

Go Blazers
 
Hamas is asking for an end to the siege against Gaza as part of their demands for a cease fire. They claim there was an agreement to end the siege last time tensions flared, but it was never ended. Egypt is proposing a no terms cease fire on both sides' parts.

Egypt, BTW, is taking part in this siege.

What Israel is doing is at least regrettable. If there were some sort of coalition like NATO or the UN keeping the peace and disallowing arms shipments to Gaza, nobody would be protesting the action.
 
I'm no fan of Hamas, but they lose all the world's attention as soon as they agree to a cease-fire. The real issue isn't the deaths, that has been happening for a while, the real issue is the apartheid state, stolen water, the inability to bring materials into the region to build and progress. This is all documented by the U.N.

Now more than ever, the rest of the world is watching and disavowing of what Israel has been doing. Hopefully this can create actual policy change. I applaud other governments for speaking out against the Israeli government. I think the United States is on the wrong side of history here and the consensus supports that thought.
 
AmirIcon said:
What proof has Israel provided to suggest Hamas is responsible for this? If Hamas are indeed terrorists, don't you think they would take responsibility?

Do you find the same outrage when innocent Palestinians are murdered? I guess you can't since the American media doesn't really shine the light on that when it happens. They didn't even cover the American teenage who got beat up by the Israeli army.
Click to expand...

No, I don't think they would claim responsibility. It would just strengthen Israel's case for retaliation.

I don't find the same outrage when innocent Palestinians are killed. I find it heartbreakingly sad that it happens, but the Palestinians voted Hamas in as their leaders. Hamas sites their weapons in schools hospitals and churches, which insures that civilians will be killed when Israel defends themselves.

Hamas purposely targets women and children to make a political statement.

Israel takes out Hamas' missile installations to keep from having their citizens killed. Hamas, after insuring civilian casualties, immediately runs to grab up kids that are killed or injured and parades them in front of cameras.

I'm sorry, but that's pathetic.

The press doesn't shine a light on this stuff??? I've seen plenty of video of injured/dead Palestinian civilians in the press. Not so much of rockets going into Israel. Also, I've seen the American boy beat-down several times.

What do you think the US response should be if Mexican cartels start lobbing missiles into San Diego or El Paso? Do you think our government should sit on their hands when citizens are being bombed, because we can't stop the bombing without killing innocents in Mexico?

Go Blazers
 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/24/egypt-opposes-hamas-gaza-conflict/13043353/

CAIRO — An echo of the anti-Hamas rhetoric coming from Israel during its conflict with Gaza is resonating from what many would consider a surprising corner since fighting erupted July 8: Egypt.

A country whose leader just over a year ago had been a close Hamas ally is now one of its principal antagonists. It is stirring up public opinion against the militant group because Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which Egypt has outlawed.

Normally, Egyptians would be decrying Israel for the Palestinian death toll in Gaza, which is at more than 750 and rising. But Abou Ahmed Shehab, 60, who sells scarves at a sidewalk stand in central Cairo, was quick to attack Hamas.

"The reason for what's happening to our Palestinian brothers is because of Hamas," he says. "Hamas is an extremist group."

Last summer, the Egyptian military ousted Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Morsi as president and jailed him. It branded the Islamist group a terrorist organization and threw thousands of its leaders and members in jail. Hundreds were killed as the Islamic movement became the focus of a security crackdown.

Since then, a military-backed government that is now led by Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, who went from military strongman to elected president this past spring, has succeeded in stoking anti-Islamist sentiment among a large swathe of Egypt's public. Both state-run and privately owned media have helped fuel the anti-Hamas attitudes.

Hamas has "terrible policies and the outcomes of those policies are being felt by women and children," said taxi driver Medhat Kamel, 40, about civilian deaths in Gaza. "They rely on violence and don't use dialogue."

From a political standpoint, Hamas is criticized in Egypt for its "unwise ways" of managing the crisis with Israel, said Mustapha Al Sayyid, a political science professor at both Cairo University and the American University in Cairo. Last week, Hamas rejected an Egyptian cease-fire initiative, saying it wasn't consulted and the proposal wouldn't end an Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Hamas-ruled Gaza, which is suffering economically as a result.

Egypt's hostility toward Gaza may be one reason Hamas lamented last week that it feels "alone" in battling Israel without support from the Arab region.
 
Look, nobody likes Hamas but they are being used as an absolute scapegoat.

The treatment of Palestinians by Israel has been going on for more than 50 years, long before Hamas ever was. You can look at this war all you want, but it's much deeper than this. Israel is occupying territory, restricting the amount of water and food that gets into Gaza, as well as vital materials to build a productive society.

This is the same apartheid that Nelson Mandela was against and he supported the Palestinian cause against Israel.

Our media is bought and paid for by the Jewish lobby in this country as you can see by the numerous firings of journalists that give an account not too favorable to Israel. Give this link a try to give you the rundown of what's actually happening over there. This country has done a good job of brainwashing its citizens into thinking Israel is a victim and it is defending itself. Let go of any preconceived notions for a second and read this link below and watch the video I have linked as well.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/reasons-rocket-attack.html

[video]
 
Nobody's occupying Gaza.

They could have spent their money on schools, roads, and hospitals. Instead, they spent it on rockets and tunnels.

It's hard to have sympathy for them like I could during the intifada.
 
Denny Crane said:
Nobody's occupying Gaza.

They could have spent their money on schools, roads, and hospitals. Instead, they spent it on rockets and tunnels.

It's hard to have sympathy for them like I could during the intifada.
Click to expand...

Denny, up until 2005, Israel maintained illegal Jewish colonies in the Gaza Strip as well. It has since disbanded these colonies and thus claims it’s no longer occupying the Gaza strip. Israel is alone in holding this deceptive view; the UN, US State Department, global NGO’s and legal scholars all consider Gaza a part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories because Israel exercises complete military control over it. They still don't allow for certain medications, foods, materials for infrastructure to get into the territory.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

SlyPokerDog
Politics Israel-Hamas War: Last Week Tonight
Replies
13
Views
1K
beast blazer
beast blazer
speeds
Israeli Air Strike in Gaza City Kills the Military Leader of Hamas
2 3 4
Replies
96
Views
6K
Denny Crane
Denny Crane
PapaG
Armada of US/GBR naval power massing in the Gulf as Israel prepares an Iran strike
Replies
26
Views
1K
MARIS61
MARIS61
Real
Jimmy Carter meets with Hamas
Replies
13
Views
816
AEM
AEM
SlyPokerDog
F'd up move by Israel
3 4 5
Replies
144
Views
9K
Denny Crane
Denny Crane

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top