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Phatguysrule said:
The CDC has said that there are 500,000 to 3,000,000 defensive gun uses per year in the US. How many children would have died if gun rights were restricted?

Improving our Gini Coefficient would reduce gun crime immensely, saving 10s of thousands of lives per year, thousands of children.
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How many kids are saved in countries with significant gun control? Now, how many are lost? Now let's compare with the United States. Math is fun.
 
calvin natt said:
I think we should release any/all persons who are in prison on personal use drug charges…..and provide them w/ the medical care/support they need. Then create strict gun laws that mandate thorough back ground checks and intense training programs. Then outlaw all automatic weapons and high capacity magazines. Provide financial compensation for any and all guns turned in. Then fill the available space in the prisons with the people who break these new gun laws. Never ever going to happen….but the dude doing a 20 year bid as 3rd time weed offender is far less of a threat than the dude with a basement full of AR 15s and armor piercing ammo.
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I agree with nearly all of that.

I'm 100% cool with gun buybacks. I don't think they are effective, but if somebody wants to sell there gun for below market value that's on them.

I don't think any action on law abiding citizens use of guns is going to happen nationwide. Not in our lifetimes. Including universal background checks. And many states with very strict background checks have some of the highest violent crime and murder rates. I understand that there arguments as to why that would be, but that isn't going to convince the other side, so this another sticking point that will prevent anything productive from actually happening.

I could see the intense training happening (and I'm all for it), if it were offered with compensation, like a tax credit.

It is already illegal to sell or alter any guns to make them automatic, unless you submit to a very thorough and expensive licensing process with the ATF.

High capacity magazines can be made in a couple hours. They are incredibly simple devices, not to mention it's very easy to transport them across state lines in VERY large qty. So if nothing happens nationwide... it's kind of pointless. But I don't have or use high capacity magazines, and changing the magazine takes less than a half a second, so this isn't a sticking point for me. This is just another red herring argument that prevents progress on the real issues, IMO.
 
Lanny said:
How many kids are saved in countries with significant gun control? How many are lost. Now let's compare with the United States. Math is fun.
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Well, violent crime and murder rates here in the US dropped more in the following 15 years than both the UK and Australia after both the UK and Australia instituted sweeping gun control...
 
Phatguysrule said:
Well, violent crime and murder rates here in the US dropped more in the following 15 years than both the UK and Australia after both the UK and Australia instituted sweeping gun control...
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Get real.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Well, violent crime and murder rates here in the US dropped more in the following 15 years than both the UK and Australia after both the UK and Australia instituted sweeping gun control...
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... and yet...

intentional homicide rate is 4 times higher in the US vs. the UK, 4.7 times higher vs. Australia
murder rate is 18 times higher vs the UK, 57 times higher vs. Australia
 

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andalusian said:
... and yet...

intentional homicide rate is 4 times higher in the US vs. the UK, 4.7 times higher vs. Australia
murder rate is 18 times higher vs the UK, 57 times higher vs. Australia
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You get right to the bottom line.
See, math is fun.
 
andalusian said:
... and yet...

intentional homicide rate is 4 times higher in the US vs. the UK, 4.7 times higher vs. Australia
murder rate is 18 times higher vs the UK, 57 times higher vs. Australia
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Intentional homicide rate in the US has been higher those countries ever since WW2, when most 1st world countries drastically increased their social safety nets. So those numbers track...

Russia's intentional homicide rate is 4 times higher than ours, and guns are basically illegal there. If people want to kill they figure out a way to do it. And the diversity in the US is far more like Russia than the other countries.
 
 
Lanny said:
So, you're suggesting that the murder rate in the U.S. is lower thanks to lax fire arms laws? Lives were saved in Uvalde due to so many good guys with guns.
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No, I'm suggesting that gun control that limits law abiding citizens isn't as effective as many would like to believe, and it's a waste of time and political capital to beat our heads against the all over it.

What Uvalde showed us is that we can't count on the police to help us if we're being attacked. We have to be prepared to defend ourselves. So unless we're going to make guns incredibly rare in the this country, the only way to defend ourselves from criminals is to have our own guns and proper security measures.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Intentional homicide rate in the US has been higher those countries ever since WW2, when most 1st world countries drastically increased their social safety nets. So those numbers track...

Russia's intentional homicide rate is 4 times higher than ours, and guns are basically illegal there. If people want to kill they figure out a way to do it. And the diversity in the US is far more like Russia than the other countries.
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Do not give a flying fuck about Russia which has not been a democracy for a long time.

I want to compare like to like. Western, first world democracies with more or less rule of law. Per the UN's global study on homicide (2019 edition, latest that was released) - the United states recorded 4.96 murders per 100K people vs. 1.2 per 100K in the UK and 0.89 per in Australia.

Also, the UK and Australia never had the abundance of firearms per capita that the US has even before their gun ban. They just never let the problem get so far out of hand as the US has, their gun ban mostly solved the issue of mass shooting. For the record, Australia still has more guns today than it did before the ban, the difference is that it is harder to get one and the percentage of households that have them is much lower (almost a half).

There is no clean cut solution for anything, but limiting access to qualified people (which is what their gun ban really did) - sure did help and it would be absurd to think it would not here. As I said, it is also does not need to be done via gun restriction, but by putting ammunition restriction, so the amount of guns that are already out there is not the huge problem in restriction, once you restrict the consumable resource - you can quickly reduce the problem even with millions of guns out there.
 
Phatguysrule said:
The math shows that gun control didn't help those countries as much as not having gun control helped the US...
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That's right bob and weave but it still doesn't help your argument when you look at the bottom line staring you right in the face.
 
Lanny said:
That's right bob and weave but it still doesn't help your argument when you look at the bottom line staring you right in the face.
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That the impact of gun control wasn't as effective as no gun control? We are discussing gun control here, correct?

Or did you want to discuss reducing the number of firearms in in this country to similar levels as those countries?
I can do the math on that as well... 1 gun per minute taken off the streets would take over 700 years to achieve...
 
Phatguysrule said:
No, I'm suggesting that gun control that limits law abiding citizens isn't as effective as many would like to believe, and it's a waste of time and political capital to beat our heads against the all over it.

What Uvalde showed us is that we can't count on the police to help us if we're being attacked. We have to be prepared to defend ourselves. So unless we're going to make guns incredibly rare in the this country, the only way to defend ourselves from criminals is to have our own guns and proper security measures.
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No, police failure to respond seems limited to Texas where Republicans are incredibly stupid.
 
andalusian said:
Do not give a flying fuck about Russia which has not been a democracy for a long time.

I want to compare like to like. Western, first world democracies with more or less rule of law. Per the UN's global study on homicide (2019 edition, latest that was released) - the United states recorded 4.96 murders per 100K people vs. 1.2 per 100K in the UK and 0.89 per in Australia.

Also, the UK and Australia never had the abundance of firearms per capita that the US has even before their gun ban. They just never let the problem get so far out of hand as the US has, their gun ban mostly solved the issue of mass shooting. For the record, Australia still has more guns today than it did before the ban, the difference is that it is harder to get one and the percentage of households that have them is much lower (almost a half).

There is no clean cut solution for anything, but limiting access to qualified people (which is what their gun ban really did) - sure did help and it would be absurd to think it would not here. As I said, it is also does not need to be done via gun restriction, but by putting ammunition restriction, so the amount of guns that are already out there is not the huge problem in restriction, once you restrict the consumable resource - you can quickly reduce the problem even with millions of guns out there.
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Now do the before and after numbers and look at the change vs gun control...
1990 to 2019

upload_2022-5-27_14-27-21.png

Now, let's look at Australia the 10 years after the gun control was instituted (1996 for both UK and the US)

upload_2022-5-27_14-33-57.png

So where is the clear evidence that increased gun control would be effective?
 

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Phatguysrule said:
Now do the before and after numbers and look at the change vs gun control...
1990 to 2019

View attachment 47659

Now, let's look at Australia the 10 years after the gun control was instituted (1996 for both UK and the US)

View attachment 47663

So where is the clear evidence that increased gun control would be effective?
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Look at the bottom line and not just at the wiggle result caused by another change.
 
Iz35MBs.png
 
Lanny said:
No, police failure to respond seems limited to Texas where Republicans are incredibly stupid.
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Unfortunately that's not at all correct. Police are failing to respond all over the country, including right here in Portland.
Just a quick search...








 
Phatguysrule said:
Now do the before and after numbers and look at the change vs gun control...
1990 to 2019

View attachment 47659

Now, let's look at Australia the 10 years after the gun control was instituted (1996 for both UK and the US)

View attachment 47663

So where is the clear evidence that increased gun control would be effective?
Click to expand...

Apples to oranges. Australia went from 20 guns per 100 people to 14.5, the US currently has more than 120 guns per 100 people.

All we need to see is the Dog's firearm homicide rates to know that even if we cut ours by half we would make a huge gain.

When we get to 20 guns per 100 people as Australia had before their gun ban - we can talk.
 
Lanny said:
Look at the bottom line and not just at the wiggle result caused by another change.
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So you just want to talk about how many guns we have? I definitely agree that the other countries are doing a lot right that we are not...

But I don't see where gun control is the smoking gun here. Especialy considering UK's intentional homicide rate increased and Australia's stayed pretty close to the same for a decade...
 
Phatguysrule said:
So you just want to talk about how many guns we have? I definitely agree that the other countries are doing a lot right that we are not...

But I don't see where gun control is the smoking gun here. Especialy considering UK's intentional homicide rate increased and Australia's stayed pretty close to the same for a decade...
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Jesus Christ, can't you see that great big giant bottom line?
 
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