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Chris Craig said:
I bet he wishes that the shooter never got his hand on those guns in the first place.

He certainly wishes the police did their job.
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With the argument that a kid that wants a gun will find a way, having one in every class in a school seems like a terrible idea to me.
 
I really don't understand the focus on AR-15s. Banning AR-15s would do next to nothing to solve the gun problem. Mass shootings account for ~5% of gun deaths, and the majority of that 5% with handguns. AR-15s, or any long gun, also aren't the most effective choice to use to enter a building or public space and shoot people at close range.

Banning AR-15s would be almost entirely symbolic and useless.
 
Chris Craig said:
I bet he wishes that the shooter never got his hand on those guns in the first place.

He certainly wishes the police did their job.
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No doubt. We all wish bad things never happened, but we all acknowledge they will.

When bad things happen and we can't count on others to save us it's nice for a law abiding person to be allowed to defend oneself and those in their care.

How many lives could have been saved if he weren't prevented from access to the tools to succeed in his efforts?
 
RR7 said:
With the argument that a kid that wants a gun will find a way, having one in every class in a school seems like a terrible idea to me.
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I thought that the argument was guns are fine in the hands of responsible people, and that we know we'll never get rid of all of them?
 
Phatguysrule said:
I thought that the argument was guns are fine in the hands of responsible people, and that we know we'll never get rid of all of them?
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Kids that want to kill having easier access to guns doesn't seem like a smart answer to me.
And shit, we can't even give teachers enough money to fill their classroom properly, but now we have the $$ to outfit every one of them with a gun, ammo, training, and replacing every door and window in every school in the country with better material. Seems about as likely as eliminating guns.
 
And damn, very shortly after 19 kids were murdered, kids watched their teachers and friends murdered, kids spread blood over themselves and played dead for an hour, I'd hate to be the guy who thinks, shit, I better get to the internet and defend guns! Like, it's OK to just let people be angry about kids being murdered without having to be a "realist" that they're going nowhere and we basically need to accept the murder of children so assholes can target shoot and because someone 300 years ago was worried about England.
But, you do you.
 
RR7 said:
Kids that want to kill having easier access to guns doesn't seem like a smart answer to me.
And shit, we can't even give teachers enough money to fill their classroom properly, but now we have the $$ to outfit every one of them with a gun, ammo, training, and replacing every door and window in every school in the country with better material. Seems about as likely as eliminating guns.
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We have plenty of money to replace every window in every school. Put it up for vote right now and it will FLY through.

Teachers need to be paid better. Giving them a federal bonus would be a great way to give them more money, assuming they received proper training.

We should encourage all Americans to get training anyway. Starting with some teachers at a time like this would be a great start. And would also likely fly through with no republican opposition.

How often do people with concealed carry permits have their guns taken from them and used? Not very often at all.

The kids wouldn't even know which teachers are armed...
 
RR7 said:
And damn, very shortly after 19 kids were murdered, kids watched their teachers and friends murdered, kids spread blood over themselves and played dead for an hour, I'd hate to be the guy who thinks, shit, I better get to the internet and defend guns! Like, it's OK to just let people be angry about kids being murdered without having to be a "realist" that they're going nowhere and we basically need to accept the murder of children so assholes can target shoot and because someone 300 years ago was worried about England.
But, you do you.
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I'm not defending guns. I'm advocating for actually protecting kids and actual common sense changes.

Again, we had an assault weapons ban. What happened? They were never able to prove it had a causual impact in 10 years and it made guns MORE POPULAR.

What happens if we ban Ar15s as our solution and the same number of shootings keep happening? Because, there are dozens of models capable of exactly what the AR is capable of.

Then Republicans get back in power and repeal it and have numbers to back them up.

We've been down that road before.

I want actual changes that can actually happen in a timely fashion. We could have several teachers in every school trained and ready within a month.

We could start funding more mental health knowledgeable staff members right now.

I bet if we suggested only a list of dangerous people and marking those people's ID right now (with an appeals court to protect due process) it would also fly through with bipartisan support.

We could get funding to update every school in the country with secure materials, remote entry, and heat pumps passed right now. Guaranteed.

And the heat pumps alone would improve schools by improving the learning environment...

Just getting mad isn't enough.

I appreciate how strongly everyone feels about this. I feel just as strongly about it, and have done a TON of research on it.

I only have a few guns for self defense and hunting, the gun I use most often is a semiautomatic .22 for plinking with my kids.

I'm not some gun nut. I hate the sensationalist "Oregunian" type culture. I hate the NRA and how it selling out to marketing bean counters and special interests has damaged responsible gun ownership in this country.
 
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To me many disgruntled workers have gone home, come back to work and shot the place up...that's what's possible when you start arming employees in schools, hospitals, grocery stores, movie theaters and everywhere crowds gather.....the chances the trained, armed grocery clerk has a panic attack are pretty high up there...lot's of workplace negativity in the world as it is...adding more weapons is assuming those people are cool calm and collected and don't belong to sketchy cults outside of work or have severe depression that's undiagnosed. Sorry...I also know you are not going to renovate every school and public place in America...they can't even afford books in many cases...this is wishful thinking and getting mad might not change what you want but tell that to a holocaust survivor or parent of a dead child....damned right we get mad....and Republicans are not going to throw money at protecting poor districts in the States ever...nor vote for any majority party legislature in an election year..they want failure of leadership right now and social programs are commie left shit to them. We need gun reform and there's no excuse for not implementing it now..start with ammo limits and get rid of large magazines or bump stocks and handguns. That's where I'd start....keep your hunting rifle that's manually chambered and your shotgun ..safer country with just a few new rules about owning the damned things.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
No doubt. We all wish bad things never happened, but we all acknowledge they will.

When bad things happen and we can't count on others to save us it's nice for a law abiding person to be allowed to defend oneself and those in their care.

How many lives could have been saved if he weren't prevented from access to the tools to succeed in his efforts?
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Some bad things happen. Earthquakes. Meteor strikes. Can't prevent them.
Some bad things are caused to happen. Murder. Senators too craven to do their job.
Cops don't do their job, senators don't do their job but teachers are expected to be armed combat soldiers, oh and also teach.
 
riverman said:
To me many disgruntled workers have gone home, come back to work and shot the place up...that's what's possible when you start arming employees in schools, hospitals, grocery stores, movie theaters and everywhere crowds gather.....the chances the trained, armed grocery clerk has a panic attack are pretty high up there...lot's of workplace negativity in the world as it is...adding more weapons is assuming those people are cool calm and collected and don't belong to sketchy cults outside of work or have severe depression that's undiagnosed.
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I'm not talking about arming anybody except teachers. There is no law preventing clerks and other people you mentioned from concealed carrying at work.

There is also nothing stopping teachers from shooting up schools right now. Nobody is searching teachers for guns.

People with concealed carry permits commit the lowest amount of violent crime of any demographic in America.

Sorry...I also know you are not going to renovate every school and public place in America...they can't even afford books in many cases...this is wishful thinking and getting mad might not change what you want but tell that to a holocaust survivor or parent of a dead child....damned right we get mad....and Republicans are not going to throw money at protecting poor districts in the States ever...nor vote for any majority party legislature in an election year..they want failure of leadership right now and social programs are commie left shit to them.
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You don't have to do every public place. Only places we are forced to send our kids and aren't allowed to carry guns to defend them. So just schools.

No, poor counties do not have the money to fund these changes. The federal government does have the money. It would be an incredibly popular infrastructure package.

And if they want to vote against securing our schools like they are claiming needs to happen they are welcome to do that. I'd love the opportunity to see who would vote against it. I'd love to see what the Turtle has to say about blocking that legislation.

Let's call their bluff.
 
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crandc said:
Some bad things happen. Earthquakes. Meteor strikes. Can't prevent them.
Some bad things are caused to happen. Murder. Senators too craven to do their job.
Cops don't do their job, senators don't do their job but teachers are expected to be armed combat soldiers, oh and also teach.
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I didn't put any requirement or expectation on them. Why imply that I did? There is no need to use tactics like that.

I am suggesting we remove the RESTRICTION which PREVENTS them from capably defending themselves.

And I am suggesting upping their pay.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I'm not defending guns.
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How would it look different if you were defending guns?

What happens if we ban Ar15s as our solution and the same number of shootings keep happening? Because, there are dozens of models capable of exactly what the AR is capable of.

Then Republicans get back in power and repeal it and have numbers to back them up.
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Hold that thought...

I want actual changes that can actually happen in a timely fashion. We could have several teachers in every school trained and ready within a month.

We could start funding more mental health knowledgeable staff members right now.

I bet if we suggested only a list of dangerous people and marking those people's ID right now (with an appeals court to protect due process) it would also fly through with bipartisan support.

We could get funding to update every school in the country with secure materials, remote entry, and heat pumps passed right now. Guaranteed.
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No, none of that is at all guaranteed of passing. Not even close. And even if any of those things did somehow pass the current congress, what would happen next? You've already given the answer:

Then Republicans get back in power and repeal it
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Or, more precisely in the current environment, defund it.

barfo
 
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Shaboid said:
I can't even remember what I used it for back then, to be honest. But if it didn't use it in the same way as you I must have been doing it wrong. Geez, get off your high horse.
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I just shared what I use social media for.
 
THE HCP said:
How can sharing pictures and family updates with friends and family hurt your mental health?
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barfo said:
How would it look different if you were defending guns?



Hold that thought...



No, none of that is at all guaranteed of passing. Not even close. And even if any of those things did somehow pass the current congress, what would happen next? You've already given the answer:



Or, more precisely in the current environment, defund it.

barfo
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If I were defending guns I'd be advocating for weapons equivalent to those of the standard infantry soldier, rather than accepting restrictions on them.

I didn't guarantee anything. But I'd be willing to bet right now any one of those would pass. And far easier than restrictions on law abiding citizens...

Defund what? The work on the buildings would be done. It would cost more to take it away. Defund Mental Healthcare? That just hurts Republicans...

But none of that is restricting the rights of law abiding citizens, and none of that would popularize guns or radicalize millions of gun owners the way "The Assault Weapons ban" did...

Are you suggesting just "thoughts and prayers" then? Or are you just looking for a fight?

I was there at Mt Tabor at dawn... You stood me up...
 
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THE HCP said:
How can sharing pictures and family updates with friends and family hurt your mental health?
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Because Facebook's algorithm wants you to do more than that, and it works to undermine your self control and encourages you to engage more than you actually want to with posts which seperate you from your joy joy feelings.
 
BigGameDamian said:
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That's how gun control started in the first place. With Reagan trying to prevent minorities from exercising their constitutional rights.

And let's be honest, the 1000% tax proposal is just that. An attempt to prevent poor and minorities from having equal rights.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I'm not talking about arming anybody except teachers. There is no law preventing clerks and other people you mentioned from concealed carrying at work.

There is also nothing stopping teachers from shooting up schools right now. Nobody is searching teachers for guns.

People with concealed carry permits commit the lowest amount of violent crime of any demographic in America.


You don't have to do every public place. Only places we are forced to send our kids and aren't allowed to carry guns to defend them. So just schools.

No, poor counties do not have the money to fund these changes. The federal government does have the money. It would be an incredibly popular infrastructure package.

And if they want to vote against securing our schools like they are claiming needs to happen they are welcome to do that. I'd love the opportunity to see who would vote against it. I'd love to see what the Turtle has to say about blocking that legislation.

Let's call their bluff.
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Most teachers don't want to be armed.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
We could get funding to update every school in the country with secure materials, remote entry, and heat pumps passed right now. Guaranteed.
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Phatguysrule said:

I didn't guarantee anything. But I'd be willing to bet right now any one of those would pass. And far easier than restrictions on law abiding citizens...

Defund what? The work on the buildings would be done. It would cost more to take it away. Defund Mental Healthcare? That just hurts Republicans...

But none of that is restricting the rights of law abiding citizens, and none of that would popularize guns or radicalize millions of gun owners the way "The Assault Weapons ban" did...

Are you suggesting just "thoughts and prayers" then? Or are you just looking for a fight?

I was there at Mt Tabor at dawn... You stood me up...
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:dunno:
 
Chris Craig said:
Most teachers don't want to be armed.
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Yeah, I worked at a small private Montessori school. I was one of two males in the whole school. Guess which two staff members would have been likely tagged with getting that extra training? Nobody there wanted a gun in the classroom. We had a kid once accidentally stab gimself with an epi pen. Imagine if there were a gun in the cabinet? And you sure as hell couldn't reliably have it on your person with how grabby little 3 year olds are.
 
Phatguysrule said:
OK, good point. That one I actually do think would be a guarantee. That's exactly what nearly all Republicans are asking for... Why would they oppose it?
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Because that's what they do? Pay something lip service and then vote against it.
 
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