Notice From My Cold Dead Hands......

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Well the bullets come out of the gun, where do you want us to focus? After all these innocent people getting murdered and still people support this? Wonder if any gun rights people have had their own children ripped apart by hot metal?
 
THE HCP said:
Well the bullets come out of the gun, where do you want us to focus? After all these innocent people getting murdered and still people support this? Wonder if any gun rights people have had their own children ripped apart by hot metal?
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I would prefer we focus on why so many people WANT to hurt each other in our country. As that's the only way to address this.

It doesn't matter what law you try to pass regarding what tool. It will not make anything better until people actually stop wanting to hurt each other.

I've never seen a case of a person going from a happy and healthy individual to a murderer simply by possessing a machine.

Of course, accidents happen, and we should be educating people to reduce the frequency and severity of those accidents.

But guns are actually already regulated. To the point that increasing regulation doesn't appear to make much of a difference.

Gun crime, along with all violent crime, rises and falls based on the amount of desperate people in society. Reducing that is what we should be focusing on.

Focusing on the gun is simply a distraction from focusing on the real problems.

Increase access to education, healthcare, and improve the social safety net. Investments in R&D.
 
THE HCP said:
I’ll just stop you at that first sentence….. how about we stop making guns until you figure that out.
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We tried that with alcohol. It didn't work. It was simply a distraction that caused more harm than good.

We tried that woth marijuana (and shrooms). That didn't work either. It was simply a distraction that caused more harm than good.

Why would it work with guns?

Prohibition of popular things has never worked.

That's what the gun debate is. A distraction which is causing more harm than good by preventing us from focusing on the real problems in our country.
 
Phatguysrule said:
We tried that with alcohol. It didn't work. It was simply a distraction that caused more harm than good.

We tried that woth marijuana (and shrooms). That didn't work either. It was simply a distraction that caused more harm than good.

Why would it work with guns?

Prohibition of popular things has never worked.

That's what the gun debate is. A distraction which is causing more harm than good by preventing us from focusing on the real problems in our country.
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Cigarettes were quite popular in the past. But 'cigarette control' laws worked to reduce the number of people who used cigarettes, and to reduce the harm to bystanders.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Cigarettes were quite popular in the past. But 'cigarette control' laws worked to reduce the number of people who used cigarettes, and to reduce the harm to bystanders.

barfo
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There has been no law prohibiting all manufacture of cigarettes as was suggested for guns, and has been attempted with the other items I listed.

There are cigarette laws, just as there are gun laws.

I have never suggested there should be no gun laws.

Everyone who uses cigarettes will eventually die from it. This is not even in the same ball park as guns.
 
When I can legally purchase a pack of cigarettes and kill a dozen people in a few minutes with them....then guns and tobacco will be equivalent...speaking about these things in finalities like "everyone will die from cigarettes" is part of the problem...my father in law lived to be a hundred as a chain smoker. As I said...finalities. Safety measures have made smoke free airplanes, movie theaters, etc...to protect the public....we don't have that safety from guns as it stands you can sneak a cigarette on an airplane or a gun probably. The only thing "everyone" will die from is their heart stopping.
 
riverman said:
When I can legally purchase a pack of cigarettes and kill a dozen people in a few minutes with them....then guns and tobacco will be equivalent...speaking about these things in finalities like "everyone will die from cigarettes" is part of the problem...my father in law lived to be a hundred as a chain smoker. As I said...finalities. Safety measures have made smoke free airplanes, movie theaters, etc...to protect the public....we don't have that safety from guns as it stands you can sneak a cigarette on an airplane or a gun probably. The only thing "everyone" will die from is their heart stopping.
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Literally 10x more people die every year from cigarettes than guns in the US.

As many people die from second hand smoke every year in the US as people who die from all gun deaths, including suicide and gang wars.

At least, according to the CDC.

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.
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https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_st... is responsible for,or 1,300 deaths every day.

So, we have not banned the sale of cigarettes in the US. And there is no question that cigarettes cause more harm to our citizens than guns. And there is no constitutional right to smoke cigarettes.

So the odds of us banning the sale or manufacture of guns is about 0.

Thereby, it is simply a distraction from actual solutions.
 
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It took many many years for cigs to be deemed dangerous and it will take many years to finally convince the government to address the gun problem in the proper way.

...and one cigarette in the hands of one individual as opposed to a gun , doesn't result in that person intentionally murdering scores of other people in cold blood on a daily basis.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
It took many many years for cigs to be deemed dangerous and it will take many years to finally convince the government to address the gun problem in the proper way.

...and one cigarette in the hands of one individual as opposed to a gun , doesn't result in that person intentionally murdering scores of other people in cold blood on a daily basis.
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Correct. Only 1300 warm blooded deaths per day. Every. Single. Day.
 
Hope this doesn’t happen to anybody on here’s kid. I don’t know what I’d do…..

 
THE HCP said:
Ill gladly take my chance with someone walking into a room with a cigarette over a gun.
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You and many others. That's why cigarettes kill 10x more. Including at least twice as many innocents.

Luckily the only solution for either problem is the same thing. Improved access to education, healthcare, and improved social safety net.
 
THE HCP said:
Ill gladly take my chance with someone walking into a room with a cigarette over a gun.
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This is like saying bats and butter knives are more dangerous than cigarettes.

Sure. In that moment. But that's kind of beside the point.

Cigarettes kill exponentially more people than any of these, and there has been no law preventing the sale or manufacture of cigarettes (which are not an explicitly protected right in the constitution).

The chances of banning the manufacture or sale of guns in the US are virtually non-existent.

This is simple logic.

Casting about emotionally will solve nothing. But it is exactly what both Democrats and Republicans want you to do.

That's all the gun debate is. A distraction.
 
Phatguysrule said:
You and many others. That's why cigarettes kill 10x more. Including at least twice as many innocents.

Luckily the only solution for either problem is the same thing. Improved access to education, healthcare, and improved social safety net.
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Well, those things, plus laws making it more difficult to get cigarettes, esp. for minors, plus laws governing where you could use cigarettes, plus tax disincentives.

barfo
 
Phatguysrule said:
This is like saying bats and butter knives are more dangerous than cigarettes.

Sure. In that moment. But that's kind of beside the point.

Cigarettes kill exponentially more people than any of these, and there has been no law preventing the sale or manufacture of cigarettes (which are not an explicitly protected right in the constitution).

The chances of banning the manufacture or sale of guns in the US are virtually non-existent.

This is simple logic.

Casting about emotionally will solve nothing. But it is exactly what both Democrats and Republicans want you to do.

That's all the gun debate is. A distraction.
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People choosing to harm themselves is one thing. People choosing to harm others is another.
 
barfo said:
Well, those things, plus laws making it more difficult to get cigarettes, esp. for minors, plus laws governing where you could use cigarettes, plus tax disincentives.

barfo
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And let's acknowledge, pretty much all of this has been done for guns as well (not sure about tax disincentives).
 
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Chris Craig said:
People choosing to harm themselves is one thing. People choosing to harm others is another.
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How is over 40,000 second hand smoking deaths per year not choosing to harm others?

That's nearly many as all gun deaths, most of which are suicides.
 
Phatguysrule said:
How is over 40,000 second hand smoking deaths per year not choosing to harm others?

That's nearly many as all gun deaths, most of which are suicides.
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this is clearly false equivalency...gun violence is not heart disease or cancer. You're using the "look, a squirrel" argument here. I'm anti tobacco and anti gun...I've used both in my life. You are throwing out a lot of statistics about death by tobacco which is why you can't use the stuff in most public places here. Tobacco is a drug...a gun is a weapon..it's a false equivilancy so let's get back on topic. Gun violence is on the rise and tobacco use is on the decline. Neither issue is resolved but in the case of tobacco, laws have been passed. You and I will never agree that guns don't solve violence in society and actually contribute to mass killings on an increasing scale. No need to counter. I'll never change my opinion on the subject but I will address it when the opportunity arises
 
Phatguysrule said:
And let's acknowledge, pretty much all of this has been done for guns as well (not sure about tax disincentives).
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Looks like currently taxes on cigs are about 25% of the total price (or, to put it another way, taxes increase the price by 33%).
I vote for taxing guns at at least the same percentage rate.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Looks like currently taxes on cigs are about 25% of the total price (or, to put it another way, taxes increase the price by 33%).
I vote for taxing guns at at least the same percentage rate.

barfo
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Interesting concept. Alcohol has been taxed to the point that it's double the price as well. Taxing it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on consumption.

I'm not sure how taxes would work considering the 2nd amendment...

I'm not 100% opposed to the idea. But I don't think it would have much of an impact.
 
riverman said:
this is clearly false equivalency...gun violence is not heart disease or cancer. You're using the "look, a squirrel" argument here. I'm anti tobacco and anti gun...I've used both in my life. You are throwing out a lot of statistics about death by tobacco which is why you can't use the stuff in most public places here. Tobacco is a drug...a gun is a weapon..it's a false equivilancy so let's get back on topic. Gun violence is on the rise and tobacco use is on the decline. Neither issue is resolved but in the case of tobacco, laws have been passed. You and I will never agree that guns don't solve violence in society and actually contribute to mass killings on an increasing scale. No need to counter. I'll never change my opinion on the subject but I will address it when the opportunity arises
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I didn't bring up the cigarettes, so I'm not the one using the "look, a squirrel“ argument.

My point has been that guns and cigarettes are not the same.

Guns are far less likely to be outlawed than cigarettes. Guns have constitutional protections that cigarettes don't, and cigarettes kill far more people.

The only thing they have in common is that improving access to education and healthcare and improving the social safety net are the best ways to minimize the damages.
 
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