Notice From My Cold Dead Hands...... (2 Viewers)

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Phatguysrule said:
I didn't bring up the cigarettes, so I'm not the one using the "look, a squirrel“ argument.

My point has been that guns and cigarettes are not the same.
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But you did bring up alcohol and pot, which are also not the same as guns.

barfo
 
barfo said:
But you did bring up alcohol and pot, which are also not the same as guns.

barfo
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Alcohol and pot are items we've banned (with disastrous consequences). I brought them up only in response to the suggestion of banning guns.

I don't think banning cigarettes would work either.

I can't think of anything that millions of people like and consider part of their culture that has been successfully banned.
 
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SlyPokerDog said:
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Again, we've had easy access to guns the entire history of our country.

It will take us decades to change that, assuming we ever do (we can't).

Trying to solve this problem by focusing on guns is the absolute least effective way to go about it.

This is a new problem that has started happening even though we have less access to guns than we've had in the past. Fewer households now have guns in them. Yet these tragedies keep happening.

Nothing will ever be done about this until we start focusing on what has actually changed to cause this. It certainly wasn't easier access to guns.

The logic just doesn't follow.
 
We've had more mass shootings in 2023 than days this year so far....200 and counting. Saying nothing will ever be done about it is surrendering to it...ignoring easy access to guns and ammo as a major contributing factor is also why crazy people go on shooting sprees in public places. Violence is sold as entertainment and young people just watched their elders storm the Capitol ..watched cops shoot unarmed people for no reason, etc....people can all have a bad day but people with an armory of weapons having a bad day is a powder keg waiting to go off. In any country that doesn't allow guns to be owned by the public....violent crime is a fraction of what we're going through here in cowboy country. As soon as gun legislation is up for vote....I'll vote for it.
 
Every time a shooting major enough to generate thoughts ant prayers happens, democrats should put a Universal Basic Income bill before congress and see if republicans counter with a gun control bill instead. We gotta attack the problem lower down in the hierarchy of needs pyramid.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Again, we've had easy access to guns the entire history of our country.

It will take us decades to change that, assuming we ever do (we can't).

Trying to solve this problem by focusing on guns is the absolute least effective way to go about it.

This is a new problem that has started happening even though we have less access to guns than we've had in the past. Fewer households now have guns in them. Yet these tragedies keep happening.

Nothing will ever be done about this until we start focusing on what has actually changed to cause this. It certainly wasn't easier access to guns.

The logic just doesn't follow.
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Tell that to the family of the 9 victims from yesterday's shooting, to the little girl who got her face blown off.

Tell it to the hundreds of victims in the 200 mass shootings this year (at this rate we will reach 400 this year) many who are children.

This shit needs to be stopped. Enough is enough.
 
Everything Beagle said:
Every time a shooting major enough to generate thoughts ant prayers happens, democrats should put a Universal Basic Income bill before congress and see if republicans counter with a gun control bill instead. We gotta attack the problem lower down in the hierarchy of needs pyramid.
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Exactly
 
Chris Craig said:
Tell that to the family of the 9 victims from yesterday's shooting, to the little girl who got her face blown off.

Tell it to the hundreds of victims in the 200 mass shootings this year (at this rate we will reach 400 this year) many who are children.

This shit needs to be stopped. Enough is enough.
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I agree it needs to be stopped. But nothing we can or will do about guns (or any mass restrictions on the rights of healthy and law abiding citizens) is going to stop anything.

The most that can do is result in further decades of ineffective policy efforts while our middle and lower classes become more and more desperate and have fewer and fewer rights.

This path ends extremely poorly for our population.

Again I ask. What has changed about guns to cause these acts? If something has changed to cause this we can have a logical conversation about rolling back those changes.

Otherwise I don't follow the logic.
 
riverman said:
We've had more mass shootings in 2023 than days this year so far....200 and counting. Saying nothing will ever be done about it is surrendering to it...ignoring easy access to guns and ammo as a major contributing factor is also why crazy people go on shooting sprees in public places. Violence is sold as entertainment and young people just watched their elders storm the Capitol ..watched cops shoot unarmed people for no reason, etc....people can all have a bad day but people with an armory of weapons having a bad day is a powder keg waiting to go off. In any country that doesn't allow guns to be owned by the public....violent crime is a fraction of what we're going through here in cowboy country. As soon as gun legislation is up for vote....I'll vote for it.
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Violent crime has always been higher here (except during the world wars, obviously). All violent crime, even crimes without guns. Even before the gun restrictions in those countries.

The gun debate is simply a distraction to keep us from taking back the profits corporations have robbed from the middle and lower classes. There will never be enough gun restrictions in this country to make a meaningful impact on these horrific acts.

I've been saying it for years. And we've had more gun restrictions in Oregon since 2015 than in our entire history. Yet gun crime in Oregon has been climbing throughout.

Those restrictions obviously don't work.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Violent crime has always been higher here (except during the world wars, obviously). All violent crime, even crimes without guns. Even before the gun restrictions in those countries.
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Hmm, so Americans are fundamentally violent people? Is it something in the water?

The gun debate is simply a distraction to keep us from taking back the profits corporations have robbed from the middle and lower classes.
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That seems like a stretch. Are all public safety debates (cigs, seat belts, covid, etc) a similar distraction, or just this one?

There will never be enough gun restrictions in this country to make a meaningful impact on these horrific acts.
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We'll see.

I've been saying it for years. And we've had more gun restrictions in Oregon since 2015 than in our entire history. Yet gun crime in Oregon has been climbing throughout.

Those restrictions obviously don't work.
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Maybe they don't work because they aren't strong enough.

barfo
 
Phatguysrule said:
Violent crime has always been higher here (except during the world wars, obviously). All violent crime, even crimes without guns. Even before the gun restrictions in those countries.

The gun debate is simply a distraction to keep us from taking back the profits corporations have robbed from the middle and lower classes. There will never be enough gun restrictions in this country to make a meaningful impact on these horrific acts.

I've been saying it for years. And we've had more gun restrictions in Oregon since 2015 than in our entire history. Yet gun crime in Oregon has been climbing throughout.

Those restrictions obviously don't work.
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Who do you think is making the most money off of guns...off the daily bloodshed...corporations. Restrictions are so hard to put in place because corporate gun companies and lobbies via the NRA are paying off politicians to keep our children dying for the sake of profit and greed.
 
Chris Craig said:
Who do you think is making the most money off of guns...off the daily bloodshed...corporations. Restrictions are so hard to put in place because corporate gun companies and lobbies via the NRA are paying off politicians to keep our children dying for the sake of profit and greed.
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The money corporations are making off of Americans owning guns is an absolute pittance compared to the money corporations have taken from the middle class and poor over the last 50 years.

Like a fraction of a fraction of a percent.
 
barfo said:
Hmm, so Americans are fundamentally violent people? Is it something in the water?
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Americans have far less financial security and worse social safety nets than virtually all other developed countries.

And desperate people make desperate decisions.

barfo said:
That seems like a stretch. Are all public safety debates (cigs, seat belts, covid, etc) a similar distraction, or just this one?
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Obviously not. The data is incredibly clear in the case of cigarettes, as well as COVID. Both of which kill far more than guns in the US, and at FAR higher rates, without any utility at all. That kind of consistent and reliable supporting evidence simply does not exist in the gun debate. Nore do the incentives for lawmakers and the wealthy align the same way.

Regarding seat belts, it's incredibly clear that you should not be allowed to drive with an unsecured load. If you are in an accident, or even break quickly, your unsecured becomes a projectile. You, without a seatbelt, become a threat to those around you.

Laws requiring secured loads in public areas are simply common sense, and don't put undue burden upon the population. Like not allowing people to shoot guns in cities.

barfo said:
We'll see.
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We have already seen. We have more gun control than at any time in our history and those restrictions haven't prevented violent crime rates or gun crime from increasing. It's very clearly ineffective.

barfo said:
Maybe they don't work because they aren't strong enough.

barfo
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Well, as they've gotten stronger they've apparently been less effective. At least, if access to guns is what we're attributing violent crime and murder to.

To my knowledge there is no mechanism with which we can realistically restrict access to guns nationwide more strongly than they are currently, at least not within the next few decades. In fact, it appears there is a better than even chance that those restrictions will be found unconstitutional by the supreme court.

By what mechanism do you think greater national restrictions can happen?
 
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