FWIW: John Gabriel On The Miles Saga

[ABM]

From: HoopsWorld

Former Magic GM John Gabriel, who now works for the New York Knicks commented on the now "infamous" Portland Trail Blazer memo regarding Darius Miles, saying other teams rarely had sympathy for your team's troubles, joking in saying "no one shed a tear for us in Orlando when we didn't get the injury exceptions on Grant Hill." The general consensus among executives is that Portland should have the monies owed Darius Miles placed back on their cap, not out of spite, but because it is now clear that Miles can indeed play again, something the Blazers professed was not the case. In the Magic's case, they carried Grant Hill for almost five years before getting any meaningful basketball out of him. The Memphis Grizzlies play host to the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight in Memphis, and all eyes will be on Miles who will be in uniform and ready to play. The question becomes does Memphis put him in the game, or let him sit?

 

[Boob-No-More]

The Memphis Grizzlies play host to the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight in Memphis, and all eyes will be on Miles who will be in uniform and ready to play. The question becomes does Memphis put him in the game, or let him sit?

Of course they play him - in the final minutes of a 20-point blowout loss.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

Where's the proof that he can still play? I don't see it. All that has been proven up to this point is that Miles can still run up and down a basketball court. I can do that too. Maybe I should play in the NBA.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I am just getting sick of everyone saying it was Portland who said he couldn't play anymore. It was the fucking independent Dr appointed by the league and the NBAPA who said he couldn't play anymore.

 

[BrianFromWA]

And iirc Gabriel never applied for Grant Hill's injury to be looked at as Miles' was. which is the correct call, since DMiles' injury is degenerative and won't get better (kind of like having a leg amputated) while Hill's was a broken bone that didn't heal properly. It eventually did.

IIRC, Orlando received the same insurance payments we're getting on Miles for when Hill was out for the seasons. They just didn't apply for career-ending....they applied for the Injury Exception. We didn't get that for Miles, either (or Raef, for that matter)...right?

 

[handiman]

This response at least carries some weight, being as it's not anonymous like the others.

 

[BrianFromWA]

IMO it's the media going back to try to find a precedent to show how screwed up the Blazers are, when in reality the reason there's such a stink right now is that there is no precedent. IF Hill had a career-ending injury (as sanctioned by league-approved docs), AND Gabriel had applied for (and received) the cap relief, then that would be something of a precedent. But he didn't, and he didn't. He basically had the same situation NYK has had with Jerome James the last few years...paying a guy to not get meaningful basketball out of him.

Miles' case is so different I question why Gabriel's even bringing Hill up, since he seems to be a smarter guy than that.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Also, Hill was injured when the Magic committed to signing him to a huge long term deal. He was already damaged goods. They took a calculated risk that Hill's injury wasn't serious, let alone career ending, and it came back to bite them.

Miles, on the other hand, was healthy when the Blazes handed him that long term contract. His injury came later.

So, the Magic took a gamble on Grant Hill's health and it didn't pay off. The Blazers signed a healthy player who became injured. Ultimately, any long term guaranteed contract is a gamble, but comparing the Hill and Miles situations isn't exactly apples:apples.

BNM

 

[ucatchtrout]

I am just getting sick of everyone saying it was Portland who said he couldn't play anymore. It was the fucking independent Dr appointed by the league and the NBAPA who said he couldn't play anymore.

You are fucking right.

 

[Ed O]

I am just getting sick of everyone saying it was Portland who said he couldn't play anymore. It was the fucking independent Dr appointed by the league and the NBAPA who said he couldn't play anymore.

Who asked the doctor to look at him?

Was it Miles? No.

Was it the doctors themselves? No.

The Blazers had the doctors look at Miles to justify their waiver of Darius Miles in an attempt to receive cap relief.

It was a good try, but it didn't work. It doesn't mean that the Blazers weren't the driving force in the decision-making, though.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Who asked the doctor to look at him?
Was it Miles? No.
Was it the doctors themselves? No.
The Blazers had the doctors look at Miles to justify their waiver of Darius Miles in an attempt to receive cap relief.
It was a good try, but it didn't work. It doesn't mean that the Blazers weren't the driving force in the decision-making, though.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, unless you're implying the doctor was dishonest. If this had worked, do you think the Blazers would keep having doctors look at every bad contract player they have until they could find one of them who said he couldn't play? You think that the Blazers thought, "Shit, we don't think there's anything wrong with the guy, but maybe THAT guy will say he's got a career-ending injury! Yeah, that's the ticket!"?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

What I'm not hearing in all of this is any doctors coming forward saying that they have examined Miles since the doctor declared it a career ending injury and they think that diagnosis was bullshit (and explaining why) and there's nothing seriously wrong with Miles. Seriously - has this been reported and I've just missed it?

I know some teams can just waive physicals (which is why Cuttino Mobley was able to play for so long with a potentially fatal [see Lewis, Reggie] heart condition) but is that what's happening with Miles? And if it is, isn't that a tacit admission that this is just about screwing up the Blazers' plans, no matter the potential risks to Miles' health?

 

[handiman]

What a lot of people fail to realize is that much in the medical field, and especially so with knees, is educated guesswork. You'll generally find what you're looking for, even if it's meaningless, making it easy to support a lot of potential diagnoses.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

What a lot of people fail to realize is that much in the medical field, and especially so with knees, is educated guesswork. You'll generally find what you're looking for, even if it's meaningless, making it easy to support a lot of potential diagnoses.

True. There are doctors out there that cleared Miles for playing in the NBA. They are all just opinions . . .

 

[The_Lillard_King]

What I'm not hearing in all of this is any doctors coming forward saying that they have examined Miles since the doctor declared it a career ending injury and they think that diagnosis was bullshit (and explaining why) and there's nothing seriously wrong with Miles. Seriously - has this been reported and I've just missed it?

I know some teams can just waive physicals (which is why Cuttino Mobley was able to play for so long with a potentially fatal [see Lewis, Reggie] heart condition) but is that what's happening with Miles? And if it is, isn't that a tacit admission that this is just about screwing up the Blazers' plans, no matter the potential risks to Miles' health?

Boston and Memphis both have doctor's reports clearing Miles to play.

 

[Ed O]

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, unless you're implying the doctor was dishonest. If this had worked, do you think the Blazers would keep having doctors look at every bad contract player they have until they could find one of them who said he couldn't play? You think that the Blazers thought, "Shit, we don't think there's anything wrong with the guy, but maybe THAT guy will say he's got a career-ending injury! Yeah, that's the ticket!"?

No dishonesty implied on my part at all.

My point is that splitting hairs over whether the Blazers said he couldn't play anymore or not is silly.

The Blazers DID say he couldn't play anymore. They asked doctors to verify it before they waived him.

Miles and at least a couple of NBA teams disagree with the Blazers' view at the time.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

What I'm not hearing in all of this is any doctors coming forward saying that they have examined Miles since the doctor declared it a career ending injury and they think that diagnosis was bullshit (and explaining why) and there's nothing seriously wrong with Miles. Seriously - has this been reported and I've just missed it?

Why should that exist?

I know some teams can just waive physicals (which is why Cuttino Mobley was able to play for so long with a potentially fatal [see Lewis, Reggie] heart condition) but is that what's happening with Miles? And if it is, isn't that a tacit admission that this is just about screwing up the Blazers' plans, no matter the potential risks to Miles' health?

Because a player can play on a variety of injuries and maladies--from broken bones to torn tendons to irregular heartbeats--and still be productive... without getting a doctor to give the thumbs-up that it's safe for them to do so.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Boston and Memphis both have doctor's reports clearing Miles to play.

Okay - so what I want to see is those doctors put in a room with the one who declared the career-ending injury and to watch them argue it out. Is that too much to ask? We can get the judge who presided over that "Intelligent Design" case to make the decision - he clearly understood science at least.

In general, I think everyone comes out of this smelling like shit. The Blazers, the Celtics, the Grizzlies. (Ironically, Miles comes out squeaky clean.) The only thing objectionable is anyone attempting to act as if they have the moral high ground.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

No dishonesty implied on my part at all.

My point is that splitting hairs over whether the Blazers said he couldn't play anymore or not is silly.

The Blazers DID say he couldn't play anymore. They asked doctors to verify it before they waived him.

I guess I don't see the splitting hairs. Obviously nobody should deny that the Blazers SAID it. It's the timing that's important. You seem to be implying that they said it before any doctors looked at him. I'm guessing what you actually mean is that they said it after their (non-impartial) doctor looked at him, and then asked a (presumably impartial) doctor to confirm the previous doctor's opinion. So that would make two doctors agreeing that he had a career-ending condition. Have either of those doctors spoken up since then?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Why should that exist?

Huh? Are you going all Zen on me, Ed? The referent of your "that" is unclear.

Because a player can play on a variety of injuries and maladies--from broken bones to torn tendons to irregular heartbeats--and still be productive... without getting a doctor to give the thumbs-up that it's safe for them to do so.

You seem to be answering a question I didn't ask. You're just trying to mess with my head, aren't you?

But in regards to your claim: the team has to AGREE TO LET the player play. Roy wanted to play recently on his hammy, but the team wouldn't let him. Any team that had a player's welfare in mind wouldn't let him play through an injury that could make him worse or be life-threatening. Apart from anything, I think the insurance companies would balk (baulk?) at paying up if something bad did happen.

 

[Ed O]

Huh? Are you going all Zen on me, Ed? The referent of your "that" is unclear.

Haha. I meant the declaration that the previous diagnosis was bullshit.

You seem to be answering a question I didn't ask. You're just trying to mess with my head, aren't you?

It appears to me that you are asking, short of simply screwing over the Blazers, how can Miles be signed by a team without a doctor disagreeing with a previous finding. I'm telling you that he can either help the team or not--and that the previous diagnosis isn't relevant.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

I guess I don't see the splitting hairs. Obviously nobody should deny that the Blazers SAID it.

OK. Then we agree. I'm responding to posts like mediocre man's when he says, "I am just getting sick of everyone saying it was Portland who said he couldn't play anymore."

Clearly Portland DID say that. They said it before the doctors looked at him, and they said it after the doctors looked at him.

It's the timing that's important. You seem to be implying that they said it before any doctors looked at him. I'm guessing what you actually mean is that they said it after their (non-impartial) doctor looked at him, and then asked a (presumably impartial) doctor to confirm the previous doctor's opinion. So that would make two doctors agreeing that he had a career-ending condition. Have either of those doctors spoken up since then?

The Blazers said it by asking doctors to look at him and then they said it after the doctors looked at him. This goes back to my post of pointing out who was driving this process... not Miles and not doctors. The Blazers were.

But: WHY should those doctors come forward now?

The doctors were not making a final determination. They were not condemning Miles's career or limiting it in any way.

They gave opinions that allowed the Blazers to waive him because Miles had injuries that, if he were to retire, could have been considered responsible for that retirement.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

What a lot of people fail to realize is that much in the medical field, and especially so with knees, is educated guesswork. You'll generally find what you're looking for, even if it's meaningless, making it easy to support a lot of potential diagnoses.

What you're saying implies that, supposing the Rockets tired of McGrady, they could just have a string of doctors look at his back (which, I'm assuming, is just as problematic as knees, if not more) until one said it was career-ending? Is it really that much individual opinion? That would be scary.

I remember hearing back when Tim Hardaway was playing, that even while he was still at Golden State he essentially had no cartilage in his knees (the grisly phrase "bone on bone" kept being thrown around), but I guess he continued to play for many years. Could some doctor have declared that a "career-ending condition"?

 

[Ed O]

What you're saying implies that, supposing the Rockets tired of McGrady, they could just have a string of doctors look at his back (which, I'm assuming, is just as problematic as knees, if not more) until one said it was career-ending? Is it really that much individual opinion? That would be scary.

That would not be relevant unless McGrady didn't want to play basketball any more.

Doctors cannot prevent him, any more than they can Miles, from signing with and playing for other teams.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

OK. Then we agree. I'm responding to posts like mediocre man's when he says, "I am just getting sick of everyone saying it was Portland who said he couldn't play anymore."
Clearly Portland DID say that. They said it before the doctors looked at him, and they said it after the doctors looked at him.
The Blazers said it by asking doctors to look at him and then they said it after the doctors looked at him. This goes back to my post of pointing out who was driving this process... not Miles and not doctors. The Blazers were.

Here's the difference: MM is claiming that, if the Blazers said it, they were simply reporting what the Doctors actually said. In other words, the DOCTORS MADE THE DECISION.
You appear either to be outright denying this or trying to weasel round it in lawyerese. I'm not sure what you mean by "driving": yes, the Blazers clearly wanted it to be the case that Miles's injury be declared career-ending. No shit. Same deal for actually calling in the doctors. They may even have paid the drivers who drove the doctors to and from their offices. But that doesn't mean that they SAID it was career ending without Doctors first making that diagnosis. They would have had a legal shitstorm if Larry Miller had just come out and said, prior to any medical examination, "I'm going to have Miles declared medically unfit to play".

But: WHY should those doctors come forward now?

Because I desire it.

The doctors were not making a final determination. They were not condemning Miles's career or limiting it in any way.

You really are a slippery customer, aren't you? Of course they're not condeming his fucking CAREER. They're declaring that his KNEE is a complete mess. And, I will bet you that the words "career-ending" had to come out of some doctor's mouth before anyone in the Blazers could officially declare it.

They gave opinions that allowed the Blazers to waive him because Miles had injuries that, if he were to retire, could have been considered responsible for that retirement.

This smells of bullshit. Clearly not just ANY reason that any player could give would count (certainly the league isn't going to give up cap space THAT easily). "I'm bored of the game" could be a reason a player could give for retiring. "It just isn't fun any more." "My back aches in the morning." "It hurts when I piss." None of those would do.

Don't get me wrong - as I've said, the Blazers look like arseholes (and smell appropriately) in this, but what you're saying is pretty facile.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

That would not be relevant unless McGrady didn't want to play basketball any more.
Doctors cannot prevent him, any more than they can Miles, from signing with and playing for other teams.

Let me ask you a question: suppose somebody lost both his arms in a horrific accident. His team wants cap relief so they get his injury declared "career ending" just like the Blazers. But some other team wants (let's say, purely hypothetically) to screw that team's cap space and sign the player, who still thinks he can play (he can play good positional defense still, even if his shot blocking is not what it was). That's legit?

If not, then define "career-ending injury" for a player who still wants to play.

 

[Ed O]

Let me ask you a question: suppose somebody lost both his arms in a horrific accident. His team wants cap relief so they get his injury declared "career ending" just like the Blazers. But some other team wants (let's say, purely hypothetically) to screw that team's cap space and sign the player, who still thinks he can play (he can play good positional defense still, even if his shot blocking is not what it was). That's legit?

I think in that case that it would be clearly an effort to screw the other team. (Of course, it doesn't answer whether that would be illegal under the CBA or not...)

One can take almost any position to an absurd one, though, and then try to apply that concept to a real-world situation.

Miles can run. He can block shots. He can PLAY.

Might he have worse knees for it? Absolutely. I guarantee that, though, that Brandon Roy's knees are going to be MUCH worse than mine are when we're both in our 60's... because I am naturally indolent and when I exercise it's all low- or no-impact stuff for my legs.

My point by bringing that up is that athletes make trade-offs between health and career every year and every day. Until and unless doctors are given the go-ahead to shut a player down for his career, I don't think that they have the importance you're attributing to them in this thread.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

One can take almost any position to an absurd one, though, and then try to apply that concept to a real-world situation.

I remember your writing being sharper than this Ed. Are you drunk right now? Positions are not the same things as concepts, for one thing. For another, clearly the point of my hypothetical is to show that the notion of a career-ending injury for a player that still wants to play makes sense, so it is absurd to claim that a team like Memphis can NEVER in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be justifiably held to be acting in bad faith. This is then a precursor to making some effort to outline the limits of the notion of a career-ending injury for a player who still wants to play. (And actually, I don't need to keep adding that qualifier "who still wants to play" because the league presumably doesn't care if he still wants to play - they just don't want to be tricked into giving cap space to a team that's just making shit up.)

Miles can run. He can block shots. He can PLAY.

My armless player can run. He can block shots with his head. He can PLAY - at least, he can take a charge.

Might he have worse knees for it? Absolutely. I guarantee that, though, that Brandon Roy's knees are going to be MUCH worse than mine are when we're both in our 60's... because I am naturally indolent and when I exercise it's all low- or no-impact stuff for my legs.

Ah, the Donald Rumsfeld method of asking a question you want to answer and then answering it.

My point by bringing that up is that athletes make trade-offs between health and career every year and every day. Until and unless doctors are given the go-ahead to shut a player down for his career, I don't think that they have the importance you're attributing to them in this thread.

I notice that you still haven't defined what a career-ending injury is. Clearly the league recognises such an idea, because it granted it in the Miles case. So what is it?

But actually, I think I've got a solution to avoiding shitstorms like this: the League should simply remove the ten game rule. That just muddies the water. It absolutely opens the door to this kind of bad blood between teams. They should either get rid of the idea of a career ending injury altogether or they should just accept the doctor's decision for that team, and still allow another team to sign the player. That is, they should allow a player with a "career-ending injury" to play for another team because, as you have pointed out, if the player wants to risk himself and the other team doesn't care, then why not? Also it might be the case that an amazing surgical technique is invented in the interim. (Something like that actually happened with Jeff Ruland, who retired medically then came back years later when they invented a better technique to fix the ACL, I think it was.)

 

[KingSpeed]

Who asked the doctor to look at him?

Was it Miles? No.

Was it the doctors themselves? No.

The Blazers had the doctors look at Miles to justify their waiver of Darius Miles in an attempt to receive cap relief.

It was a good try, but it didn't work. It doesn't mean that the Blazers weren't the driving force in the decision-making, though.

Ed O.

Bingo!

 

[Ed O]

I remember your writing being sharper than this Ed. Are you drunk right now? Positions are not the same things as concepts, for one thing. For another, clearly the point of my hypothetical is to show that the notion of a career-ending injury for a player that still wants to play makes sense, so it is absurd to claim that a team like Memphis can NEVER in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be justifiably held to be acting in bad faith. This is then a precursor to making some effort to outline the limits of the notion of a career-ending injury for a player who still wants to play. (And actually, I don't need to keep adding that qualifier "who still wants to play" because the league presumably doesn't care if he still wants to play - they just don't want to be tricked into giving cap space to a team that's just making shit up.)

I've never claimed that they can't act in bad faith.

My armless player can run. He can block shots with his head. He can PLAY - at least, he can take a charge.

Can he score 11 points in 8 minutes in an NBA regular season game?

Miles can.

I notice that you still haven't defined what a career-ending injury is. Clearly the league recognises such an idea, because it granted it in the Miles case. So what is it?

This is RIDICULOUSLY simple. I have no idea why you can't understand it.

There are two components:

1. An absence from NBA games for a certain period, and
2. A medical reason for that absence.

Miles did NOT suffer a career-ending injury. His career is continuing, and after one more appearance the allowance Portland was granted is no longer in effect.

The doctors' opinions, therefore, are irrelevant at this point.

Ed O.