Game Thread GAME# 1: NUGGETS @ BLAZERS - OCTOBER 23, 2019 - WEDNESDAY, 7:00 (PDT), ESPN & NBCSNW

[hoopsjock]

My point is that sometimes the screens ARE the problem, not always but it doesn't hurt to have a good screen set. My other point is we can mention that we didn't think the screens were very good AND also have other issues with the offense and play calls. I think Whitesides (especially) his screens are poor, but I also think they should go away from that at times too. Saying one thing doesn't mean I'm "ignoring" or excusing the other things. Just means I notice it, and I noticed it in the preseason too and they didn't play Denver every game in the preseason...

Whiteside's screens are already better than the 1st preseason game. I just didn't see anything last night that screamed that the screen itself was the problem. To me anyone who mentioned a screen last night had already decided after preseason that they were going to make it an issue and I don't think that's fair to harp on it when in my opinion it had no effect on the outcome of last night's game.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Whiteside's screens are already better than the 1st preseason game. I just didn't see anything last night that screamed that the screen itself was the problem. To me anyone who mentioned a screen last night had already decided after preseason that they were going to make it an issue and I don't think that's fair to harp on it when in my opinion it had no effect on the outcome of last night's game.

Well, couldn't we also say that anyone talking about Stottsfense had already decided they were going to harp on it because we've seen it for years and it's grown old? When who knows if that was the reason we lost the game or not. It's not like the team wasn't getting open shots, they were just bricking them...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Well, couldn't we also say that anyone talking about Stottsfense had already decided they were going to harp on it because we've seen it for years and it's grown old? When who knows if that was the reason we lost the game or not. It's not like the team wasn't getting open shots, they were just bricking them...

All I'm saying here is it's pretty easy to just throw out another's observations or thoughts by saying well you were just gonna say that anyways!

 

[hoopsjock]

Well, couldn't we also say that anyone talking about Stottsfense had already decided they were going to harp on it because we've seen it for years and it's grown old? When who knows if that was the reason we lost the game or not. It's not like the team wasn't getting open shots, they were just bricking them...

I was one of the first to say if they just hit some shots they win so I wasn't harping on "Stottsfense" until I had to prove my point about the screens.

There were at least 6 times last night that CJ got around his guy, sucked in the defense, and had a big standing wide open under the hoop for an easy dunk but took a shot with multiple defenders on him anyway. I know it was 6 because the guy in front of me turned around and said that's the 5th time you've said that and then on the 6th one turned around and said there's another one. If CJ could just learn that when he pulls off his fancy moves it usually leaves someone open he'd be practically unguardable. To me that was why we lost and it's frustrating to me that CJ doesn't seem to realize it.

 

[wizenheimer]

If a team traps Dame that should give us a 4 on 3 advantage and we should make teams pay for doing that. The fact that this is still a problem is very concerning to me.

that's been the primary issue for the last 4 seasons, ever since the Aldridge team broke up

IMO, the issue isn't scheme...mostly. The issue in those 4 on 3 situations is you still need to have somebody besides Dame who can get the ball and consistently run the offense enough to make doubling Dame counter-productive. Portland hasn't had anybody like that since Mo Williams or Steve Blake. Give the ball to CJ and he will consistently call his own number. Sometimes he's hot and it will pay off. But a lot of times, and it's enough times to make doubling Dame pay-off, CJ isn't hot as hell and he has bad court vision in any case. And whether he's hot or not, the rest of the team gets in that stand-around-and-watch-CJ-dribble mode

they tried to shoehorn Turner into the bail-out facilitator role, but he simply wasn't good enough. Neither were Napier and Curry. The wheel has now turned to Simons and Hezonja, and that's almost certain to fail. It's a personnel problem in my view. I'd wonder how many teams only have one guy who has averaged 4 assists or more over the last 2-3 seasons

by the way, I agree the focus on screening prowess is missing the mark.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I was one of the first to say if they just hit some shots they win so I wasn't harping on "Stottsfense" until I had to prove my point about the screens.

There were at least 6 times last night that CJ got around his guy, sucked in the defense, and had a big standing wide open under the hoop for an easy dunk but took a shot with multiple defenders on him anyway. I know it was 6 because the guy in front of me turned around and said that's the 5th time you've said that and then on the 6th one turned around and said there's another one. If CJ could just learn that when he pulls off his fancy moves it usually leaves someone open he'd be practically unguardable. To me that was why we lost and it's frustrating to me that CJ doesn't seem to realize it.

Did you prove a point? lol.

Nothing about last night's game really surprised me. I didn't think a single player out there played a very great game, especially on the Blazers end. Seemed mostly to come down to our bench was bad, and no one could hit a shot especially down the stretch so many bricks...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

that's been the primary issue for the last 4 seasons, ever since the Aldridge team broke up

IMO, the issue isn't scheme...mostly. The issue in those 4 on 3 situations is you still need to have somebody besides Dame who can get the ball and consistently run the offense enough to make doubling Dame counter-productive. Portland hasn't had anybody like that since Mo Williams or Steve Blake. Give the ball to CJ and he will consistently call his own number. Sometimes he's hot and it will pay off. But a lot of times, and it's enough times to make doubling Dame pay-off, CJ isn't hot as hell and he has bad court vision in any case. And whether he's hot or not, the rest of the team gets in that stand-around-and-watch-CJ-dribble mode

they tried to shoehorn Turner into the bail-out facilitator role, but he simply wasn't good enough. Neither were Napier and Curry. The wheel has now turned to Simons and Hezonja, and that's almost certain to fail. It's a personnel problem in my view. I'd wonder how many teams only have one guy who has averaged 4 assists or more over the last 2-3 seasons

by the way, I agree the focus on screening prowess is missing the mark.

I'm not sure anyone was really focusing on it though, just because we made a couple comments about it doesn't mean we were "focused on it" or saying that's why they lost or that everything else was fine.

I think if Dame needs to do something a lot better it's passing out of the traps and relocating to a good spot. Once the ball is out of his hands he usually just kind of fades away somewhere. Curry is so good at taking the trap getting it out of his hands relocating quickly and effectively, it's probably not fair to compare Dame to Curry, but I think Dame does need to get better at his post trap play.

 

[hoopsjock]

that's been the primary issue for the last 4 seasons, ever since the Aldridge team broke up

IMO, the issue isn't scheme...mostly. The issue in those 4 on 3 situations is you still need to have somebody besides Dame who can get the ball and consistently run the offense enough to make doubling Dame counter-productive. Portland hasn't had anybody like that since Mo Williams or Steve Blake. Give the ball to CJ and he will consistently call his own number. Sometimes he's hot and it will pay off. But a lot of times, and it's enough times to make doubling Dame pay-off, CJ isn't hot as hell and he has bad court vision in any case. And whether he's hot or not, the rest of the team gets in that stand-around-and-watch-CJ-dribble mode

they tried to shoehorn Turner into the bail-out facilitator role, but he simply wasn't good enough. Neither were Napier and Curry. The wheel has now turned to Simons and Hezonja, and that's almost certain to fail. It's a personnel problem in my view. I'd wonder how many teams only have one guy who has averaged 4 assists or more over the last 2-3 seasons

by the way, I agree the focus on screening prowess is missing the mark.

I will say that I think Nurk was becoming a play-maker and having that from the big instead of just another PG is a huge advantage. Gasol can also fill that role although I'm not expecting him to be able to play many minutes at this point in his career. I'm hoping Zach can become a better passer because if he and Whiteside/Nurk develop a high-low game then teams would have a harder time trapping. It's one of the main reasons I like the idea of Blake Griffin even though he's a huge injury risk because he is one of the better play-making bigs in the league.

 

[wizenheimer]

I'm not sure anyone was really focusing on it though, just because we made a couple comments about it doesn't mean we were "focused on it" or saying that's why they lost or that everything else was fine.

I think if Dame needs to do something a lot better it's passing out of the traps and relocating to a good spot. Once the ball is out of his hands he usually just kind of fades away somewhere. Curry is so good at taking the trap getting it out of his hands relocating quickly and effectively, it's probably not fair to compare to Dame to Curry, but I think Dame does need to get better at his post trap play.

I disagree in a way

that's because how can you know how effective Dame is at relocating when he's not playing with guys who could find him if he's open? Curry has played with Draymond who has averaged 8 assists before; Durant who has averaged 6 assists before; Iggy who has averaged over 5 assists six times; and Livingston who has always been a PG. Even Monta Ellis hit the 5.5 assist plateau a couple of seasons playing with Curry. In other words, Curry has played with several guys who can run an offense. Over the last 4 years, Dame hasn't played with a single one

I will say that I think Nurk was becoming a play-maker and having that from the big instead of just another PG is a huge advantage. Gasol can also fill that role although I'm not expecting him to be able to play many minutes at this point in his career. I'm hoping Zach can become a better passer because if he and Whiteside/Nurk develop a high-low game then teams would have a harder time trapping. It's one of the main reasons I like the idea of Blake Griffin even though he's a huge injury risk because he is one of the better play-making bigs in the league.

Nurkic is a good passer from the post but he's not going to run he offense. Besides that, you don't want him coming out 20 feet from the hoop to catch a bail-out pass from Dame. He might become a poor man's Bill Walton in the high post. A pivot point for the offense. But even Walton had 3 PG's in the rotation in Twardzick, Hollins, and Davis; 4 if you count Gilliam

Zach is not the solution to Dame being trapped, IMO

I've always wanted Griffin, but man, that injury history and that salary...yikes!

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm not freaking out about last night.

I thought Whiteside looked really good.

I thought Dame did well.

I wish Hood would get more shots.

The bench is concerning because of how much youth we're relying on, but that will obviously improve over the course of the season. I think Pau will help as well.

MeJay is MeJay.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I disagree in a way

that's because how can you know how effective Dame is at relocating when he's not playing with guys who could find him if he's open? Curry has played with Draymond who has averaged 8 assists before; Durant who has averaged 6 assists before; Iggy who has averaged over 5 assists six times; and Livingston who has always been a PG. Even Monta Ellis hit the 5.5 assist plateau a couple of seasons playing with Curry. In other words, Curry has played with several guys who can run an offense. Over the last 4 years, Dame hasn't played with a single one

Curry runs and gets to a spot where he can shoot though, Dame usually does not. Nurk's supposedly a good passer, ET was supposedly a good passer, Plumlee averaged 5 assists last year. Guess it's hard to tell who owns more, but it could be both his teammates and him.

 

[BonesJones]

We aren’t as good of a defensive team this year as last. Regardless of how people felt about chief and mo, they will be missed on the defensive end.

Seems to me that we just need to guard the 3pt line better. Our interior defense is legit.

 

[riverman]

Seems to me that we just need to guard the 3pt line better. Our interior defense is legit.

I think confidence in passes and positioning was glaringly awkward especially from the bench squad.Simons is not an NBA defender by any stretch yet..that'll settle down. 3 pt defense is the name of the modern game...but ya still have to make em on the other end...game one to me....shit happens game. I love the paint protection and love Baze's energy on defense.

 

[kjironman1]

Well, couldn't we also say that anyone talking about Stottsfense had already decided they were going to harp on it because we've seen it for years and it's grown old? When who knows if that was the reason we lost the game or not. It's not like the team wasn't getting open shots, they were just bricking them...

Oh my my..... There is no question Stotts has his work cut out for him this year. But truer words maybe have not been typed on this board.

 

[Paine Tablet]

He's a utility 3 and D player. If the 3s not falling yes he's worthless but not sure what y'all were expecting if you've ever seen him play.

Haha, I was expecting/hoping when he signed that he wouldn't play at all. Color my surprise when he's in the first rotation off the bench and playing a meaningful 13 minutes resulting in a - 9 +/-.

 

[Paine Tablet]

Not to pile on, but keep an eye on Whiteside. Dude barely even makes contact on screens.

Maybe that's part of why he doesn't get a lot of fouls called on him.

 

[BonesJones]

Oh my my..... There is no question Stotts has his work cut out for him this year. But truer words maybe have not been typed on this board.

Eh.

 

[kjironman1]

Eh.

Bones. Stotts has his work cut out for him. This is gonna be a tough start and if the losses start to mount he has to keep this team together. That has been my biggest question about the new faces. How will they react to adversity?
Now this is just my opinion. Of course you are welcome to yours but if he pulls off 50+ wins and a solid playoff run again? Stotts will have done a very good job as far as i am concerned. Deep would be better and a Championship would be best of course.

 

[BonesJones]

Bones. Stotts has his work cut out for him. This is gonna be a tough start and if the losses start to mount he has to keep this team together. That has been my biggest question about the new faces. How will they react to adversity?
Now this is just my opinion. Of course you are welcome to yours but if he pulls off 50+ wins and a solid playoff run again? Stotts will have done a very good job as far as i am concerned. Deep would be better and a Championship would be best of course.

Stotts has 50+ win talent, so 50 wins should be the baseline. He has his work cut out for him because he actually has to coach to start the season because he doesn't have the same guys who have been running his same basic offensive and defensive system for the past 3 years.

I will say, he had some positives last night:
1.) He switched up Pick n Roll defense. Hedging Whiteside with Collins playing safety was smart. Denver hadn't seen us do that and it gave them fits! That's a perfect example of why I've been asking them to switch up their pick n roll defense.
2.) He learned that he can't stagger Dame and CJ after the all-bench unit was brutal to start the 2nd quarter. I was foreshadowing that brutality after the first preseason game, so I think it's something he should've done off the bat, but at least he learned quickly and staggered them in the 2nd half.

And some negatives:
1.) The team hasn't improved their coverage of the 3pt line at all after getting crushed in that area during the preseason.
2.) The offense is still unimaginative with too much perimeter-based movement. Sometimes it's like there's a rule that guys aren't allow to run inside the 3pt line unless they're running along the baseline, so everyone runs in a damn circle (which is what I call "Stottsfense"). Without elite 1-on-1 players to bail out that type of offense, it's horrible. The bench-unit didn't even have a chance at getting anything more than a contested 17-footer out of their halfcourt offense, and it wasn't only because of who was out on the court, and it wasn't something that's new, either.

So I didn't have a huge problem with Stotts last night. The offensive system is still mind-boggling but at least he was able to make an in-game rotational adjustment (or maybe he planned to stagger them in the 2nd half?), and at least he switched up his pick n roll coverage to something Denver hadn't seen us do.

 

[BonesJones]

He's a utility 3 and D player. If the 3s not falling yes he's worthless but not sure what y'all were expecting if you've ever seen him play.

3 and D? More like 3 and nothing else, and the 3 isn't all that efficient or helpful.

I'm not expecting anything out of him. He shouldn't play. Great guy and a great locker room presence, but his value diminishes when he sets foot on the court.

 

[hoopsjock]

Nurkic is a good passer from the post but he's not going to run he offense. Besides that, you don't want him coming out 20 feet from the hoop to catch a bail-out pass from Dame. He might become a poor man's Bill Walton in the high post. A pivot point for the offense. But even Walton had 3 PG's in the rotation in Twardzick, Hollins, and Davis; 4 if you count Gilliam

Zach is not the solution to Dame being trapped, IMO

I've always wanted Griffin, but man, that injury history and that salary...yikes!

Huh? Nurk was fantastic when receiving the ball in the high post last year.

 

[kjironman1]

Stotts has 50+ win talent, so 50 wins should be the baseline. He has his work cut out for him because he actually has to coach to start the season because he doesn't have the same guys who have been running his same basic offensive and defensive system for the past 3 years.

I will say, he had some positives last night:
1.) He switched up Pick n Roll defense. Hedging Whiteside with Collins playing safety was smart. Denver hadn't seen us do that and it gave them fits! That's a perfect example of why I've been asking them to switch up their pick n roll defense.
2.) He learned that he can't stagger Dame and CJ after the all-bench unit was brutal to start the 2nd quarter. I was foreshadowing that brutality after the first preseason game, so I think it's something he should've done off the bat, but at least he learned quickly and staggered them in the 2nd half.

And some negatives:
1.) The team hasn't improved their coverage of the 3pt line at all after getting crushed in that area during the preseason.
2.) The offense is still unimaginative with too much perimeter-based movement. Sometimes it's like there's a rule that guys aren't allow to run inside the 3pt line unless they're running along the baseline, so everyone runs in a damn circle (which is what I call "Stottsfense"). Without elite 1-on-1 players to bail out that type of offense, it's horrible. The bench-unit didn't even have a chance at getting anything more than a contested 17-footer out of their halfcourt offense, and it wasn't only because of who was out on the court, and it wasn't something that's new, either.

So I didn't have a huge problem with Stotts last night. The offensive system is still mind-boggling but at least he was able to make an in-game rotational adjustment (or maybe he planned to stagger them in the 2nd half?), and at least he switched up his pick n roll coverage to something Denver hadn't seen us do.

I pretty much agree on most of this.
The one part i disagree on is the 50+ wins. Last year seven teams won over 50 games. If you want to include the jazz and make it eight so be it. 50 wins has never and will never be a "baseline" for any team and any coach. A fifty win season will be a successful "Regular" season in just about every view i can come up with.
It pretty much guarantees home court in the first round. A 50+ win season gives them a better chance to make it into the second round. After many years of following this sport i have seen way way too much happen to teams after the first round. You just cannot say enough about the difference when it comes to the second season.
Regular season basketball is a marathon and it is run for position. Making the playoffs is and always will be the "Baseline". (A playoff team) vs (A lottery Team). When we start raising the bar to "50+ wins is successful" in my opinion we have lost sight of reality. 50+ wins puts a team in the hunt for a Championship.

 

[hoopsjock]

I pretty much agree on most of this.
The one part i disagree on is the 50+ wins. Last year seven teams won over 50 games. If you want to include the jazz and make it eight so be it. 50 wins has never and will never be a "baseline" for any team and any coach. A fifty win season will be a successful "Regular" season in just about every view i can come up with.
It pretty much guarantees home court in the first round. A 50+ win season gives them a better chance to make it into the second round. After many years of following this sport i have seen way way too much happen to teams after the first round. You just cannot say enough about the difference when it comes to the second season.
Regular season basketball is a marathon and it is run for position. Making the playoffs is and always will be the "Baseline". (A playoff team) vs (A lottery Team). When we start raising the bar to "50+ wins is successful" in my opinion we have lost sight of reality. 50+ wins puts a team in the hunt for a Championship.

Humor me for a second...

If the Blazers make the playoffs and lose in the first round then are you saying that Stotts would've done a good coaching job this season? 16 out of the 30 teams make the playoffs. To me just making the playoffs is the baseline of an average team/coach.

I think Bones would agree that Stotts is a pretty good regular season coach. There are always exceptions but I feel like for the most part the Blazers show up and give effort most nights which I can't say about a lot of teams.

You've been one of the vocal ones about Stotts overachieving with the talent he has had the past few years. The last two years he's won 49 and 53 games with that lack of talent. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Blazers to be good enough to win in that same range of games again this season.

 

[STOMP]

He's a utility 3 and D player. If the 3s not falling yes he's worthless but not sure what y'all were expecting if you've ever seen him play.

If you're really referring to Tolliver, he's probably the worst NBA front court defender I've ever seen... he makes Meyers seem like a defensive savant. At his peak he's was a 3 and no D player, & now he's 34...

STOMP

 

[kjironman1]

Humor me for a second...

If the Blazers make the playoffs and lose in the first round then are you saying that Stotts would've done a good coaching job this season? 16 out of the 30 teams make the playoffs. To me just making the playoffs is the baseline of an average team/coach.

I think Bones would agree that Stotts is a pretty good regular season coach. There are always exceptions but I feel like for the most part the Blazers show up and give effort most nights which I can't say about a lot of teams.

You've been one of the vocal ones about Stotts overachieving with the talent he has had the past few years. The last two years he's won 49 and 53 games with that lack of talent. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Blazers to be good enough to win in that same range of games again this season.

Hoops i already answered that about two posts ago. I said 50+ wins and a solid playoff run. Deep playoff run would be better. Championship would be best.
I understand you might have missed that. But it's there.
I'm going to extrapolate or try to guess your next question. What do i feel is a solid playoff run? Second round 6 or 7 games. No 4 game sweeps. Getting tired of that and on those issues i agree with everyone. Get there and play a solid series. "Deep Playoff Run" WCF .
Bottom line i don't buy the "Good Regular Season Coach" mantra. You either win or you don't as a team. As far as the talent goes on this team i agree they have more talent. But unfortunately right now their starting center is injured and the talent they have has been playing together for about a month. Gasol getting healthy will create some depth. When Nurk gets back and playing at a high level they will then be a better team than last year. At that time i would say this team has more talent. Right now???? No.

 

[kjironman1]

@BonesJones and @hoopsjock

I have a class to teach in the morning. I do like chatting with you both but i got to turn in. Might take a while to get back to you.

 

[wizenheimer]

Huh? Nurk was fantastic when receiving the ball in the high post last year.

making passes from the high post isn't running the offense. Nurk can't put the ball on the floor and find a 2nd or 3rd option if the initial high post pass is denied

 

[SIeepwalker]

Seems to me that we just need to guard the 3pt line better. Our interior defense is legit.

Our interior defense is insane.

Hopefully once our perimeter guys realize that when a opponent drive they are getting their shit swatted into oblivion, they will be more willing to get out on shooters.

 

[HailBlazers]

If you're really referring to Tolliver, he's probably the worst NBA front court defender I've ever seen... he makes Meyers seem like a defensive savant. At his peak he's was a 3 and no D player, & now he's 34...

STOMP

Front court defense is not our problem in case you haven't noticed...

 

[BonesJones]

I pretty much agree on most of this.
The one part i disagree on is the 50+ wins. Last year seven teams won over 50 games. If you want to include the jazz and make it eight so be it. 50 wins has never and will never be a "baseline" for any team and any coach. A fifty win season will be a successful "Regular" season in just about every view i can come up with.
It pretty much guarantees home court in the first round. A 50+ win season gives them a better chance to make it into the second round. After many years of following this sport i have seen way way too much happen to teams after the first round. You just cannot say enough about the difference when it comes to the second season.
Regular season basketball is a marathon and it is run for position. Making the playoffs is and always will be the "Baseline". (A playoff team) vs (A lottery Team). When we start raising the bar to "50+ wins is successful" in my opinion we have lost sight of reality. 50+ wins puts a team in the hunt for a Championship.

Wait, so for the Warriors last year, the 50 wins and the playoffs wouldve been the "baseline"? What? This team based off the roster alone should win around 50 games. Winning 50 games and making the playoffs isnt an accomplishment anymore.

Teams in the top third talent-wise expect to be in the top third...