Game Thread GAME# 2: SPURS @ BLAZERS - OCTOBER 20, 2018 - SATURDAY, 7:00 PM (PDT), NBCSNW

[Boob-No-More]

Ed Davis is the perfect NBA substitute.

No, he's not. Did you not watch the NOP series. POR got absolutely KILLED when Ed was on the floor:

You can't do better.

Yeah, you can, If he is the best NBA substitute, how come he has never sniffed 6MOY?

Some sort of conspiracy, I'm sure. Probably a secret anti-Ed agenda by the Oregonian, or Neil using his clout to convince the voters not to vote for Ed because he knew he'd eventually let him walk for nothing and didn't want to look bad.

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I think you're missing the point. One of the ways we get more 3s is by having Collins flash to the 3 point line. With Ed, the opposing Center basically gets to play zone. If he loses track of Collins, he'll flash to the line for a 3. Right now, he's 2-4, so it's a concern for the opposing defense. Put another way, it's about spacing, not rebounding.

On defense, we now have Collins at the 5, Harkless at the 4, and ET at the 3. All three of those guys can switch, making our defense better with Collins, too.

Collins also shot like 30% from 3 last year, He's still going to have to prove that offensively he can hit those shots consistently or teams won't guard him either.
My point wasn't who's better than who between Ed and Zach, my point is that it's really early in the season to make any sort proclamation like oh Zach's this or that. Last year's sample size showed us he's an effective defender but his offensive game is really spotty, he had good offensive games here or there last year. I just think we should wait and see what he looks like with a larger sample size.
Again, the LA team he blocked 6 shots against spent a lot of time with Kyle Kuzma as their "center" in that game.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

No, he's not. Did you not watch the NOP series. POR got absolutely KILLED when Ed was on the floor:

View attachment 22833



Yeah, you can, If he is the best NBA substitute, how come he has never sniffed 6MOY?

Some sort of conspiracy, I'm sure. Probably a secret anti-Ed agenda by the Oregonian, or Neil using his clout to convince the voters not to vote for Ed because he knew he'd eventually let him walk for nothing and didn't want to look bad.

BNM

I don't think Ed is the best bench player in the league (but maybe the best back up center), but the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards. Lou Williams, Eric Gordan, Crawford, JR Smith, the 6MOY award is basically for the best scorer off the bench, with few exceptions.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No, he's not. Did you not watch the NOP series. POR got absolutely KILLED when Ed was on the floor:

View attachment 22833



Yeah, you can, If he is the best NBA substitute, how come he has never sniffed 6MOY?

Some sort of conspiracy, I'm sure. Probably a secret anti-Ed agenda by the Oregonian, or Neil using his clout to convince the voters not to vote for Ed because he knew he'd eventually let him walk for nothing and didn't want to look bad.

BNM

Holy shit, you are on a roll. I'm not disputing shit with you on this day.

... or most days now that I think about it.

 

[Scalma]

I don't think Ed is the best bench player in the league (but maybe the best back up center), but the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards. Lou Williams, Eric Gordan, Crawford, JR Smith, the 6MOY award is basically for the best scorer off the bench, with few exceptions.

Serious question, has a center/big ever won 6MOY?

 

[SIeepwalker]

Serious question, has a center/big ever won 6MOY?

Not many times, and definitely not recently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Sixth_Man_of_the_Year_Award#Winners

Usually the best scorers off the bench win it, and back up big men are rarely scoring machines

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Serious question, has a center/big ever won 6MOY?

I think Bill Walton won it for the Celtics once upon a time.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think Ed is the best bench player in the league (but maybe the best back up center), but the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards. Lou Williams, Eric Gordan, Crawford, JR Smith, the 6MOY award is basically for the best scorer off the bench, with few exceptions.

The post I responded to called Ed the perfect substitute and the best in the business. There were no positional qualifications in those statements.

And note, I didn't ask why hasn't Ed won the 6MOY award, I asked why he hasn't come within spitting distance of winning it. While it's true that the award generally goes to a high scoring bench player, each of the last three years, a player averaging less than 9 ppg has finished in the top 3 in 6MOY voting. Last year it was Fred Van Vleet coming in 3rd with an average of 8.6 ppg. And, in both 2015-16 and 2016-17, Andre Iguodala came in a very close 2nd in 6MOY voting while averaging 7.0 and 7.6 ppg. So, it is possible to at least be considered for the award based on more than just scoring.

Finally, if Ed is so valuable, why did he go to a bad team on a cheap contract? If he was so valuable, why didn't some contender snap him up for $4.5 million? Why'd he have to settle for going to BRK at $4.4 million?

I think you sort of answered that question yourself:

"the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards"

I think maybe it's just not considered very valuable in general - not these days at least. It's not just the 6MOY voters that don't place much value on what Ed does, it's also GMs league wide. Otherwise, someone other than BRK would have swooped in and snatched him up. There just isn't a big market for traditional back up centers in today's NBA.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Serious question, has a center/big ever won 6MOY?

Very common back in the 80s and early 90s - Kevin McHale twice, followed by Walton and Roy Tarpley. Cliff Robinson was considered a PF when he won it in 92-93, as was Lamar Odon in 2010-11 - the last time a "big man" won the award.

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The post I responded to called Ed the perfect substitute and the best in the business. There were no positional qualifications in those statements.

And note, I didn't ask why hasn't Ed won the 6MOY award, I asked why he hasn't come within spitting distance of winning it. While it's true that the award generally goes to a high scoring bench player, each of the last three years, a player averaging less than 9 ppg has finished in the top 3 in 6MOY voting. Last year it was Fred Van Vleet coming in 3rd with an average of 8.6 ppg. And, in both 2015-16 and 2016-17, Andre Iguodala came in a very close 2nd in 6MOY voting while averaging 7.0 and 7.6 ppg. So, it is possible to at least be considered for the award based on more than just scoring.

Finally, if Ed is so valuable, why did he go to a bad team on a cheap contract? If he was so valuable, why didn't some contender snap him up for $4.5 million? Why'd he have to settle for going to BRK at $4.4 million?

I think you sort of answered that question yourself:

"the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards"

I think maybe it's just not considered very valuable in general - not these days at least. It's not just the 6MOY voters that don't place much value on what Ed does, it's also GMs league wide. Otherwise, someone other than BRK would have swooped in and snatched him up. There just isn't a big market for traditional back up centers in today's NBA.

BNM

Well of course there's not a huge market for back up bigs, especially in a year when teams didn't have a lot of cap room to begin with, the league (not just the Blazers) is still trying to recenter it's FA signing's after a couple summer of just ridiculous contracts. I believe you actually see teams do value guys with Ed type skillsets (even contenders), Jordan Bell gets his minutes in Golden State for example.

 

[Scalma]

The post I responded to called Ed the perfect substitute and the best in the business. There were no positional qualifications in those statements.

And note, I didn't ask why hasn't Ed won the 6MOY award, I asked why he hasn't come within spitting distance of winning it. While it's true that the award generally goes to a high scoring bench player, each of the last three years, a player averaging less than 9 ppg has finished in the top 3 in 6MOY voting. Last year it was Fred Van Vleet coming in 3rd with an average of 8.6 ppg. And, in both 2015-16 and 2016-17, Andre Iguodala came in a very close 2nd in 6MOY voting while averaging 7.0 and 7.6 ppg. So, it is possible to at least be considered for the award based on more than just scoring.

Finally, if Ed is so valuable, why did he go to a bad team on a cheap contract? If he was so valuable, why didn't some contender snap him up for $4.5 million? Why'd he have to settle for going to BRK at $4.4 million?

I think you sort of answered that question yourself:

"the easy answer to this question is that what Ed does off the bench is not valued really at all in the 6MOY awards"

I think maybe it's just not considered very valuable in general - not these days at least. It's not just the 6MOY voters that don't place much value on what Ed does, it's also GMs league wide. Otherwise, someone other than BRK would have swooped in and snatched him up. There just isn't a big market for traditional back up centers in today's NBA.

BNM

6MOY voters - journalists and broadcasters. Wouldn’t put much, if any, weight into their opinions. Zach isn’t going to sniff the award either, doesn’t mean we should minimize his impact. Same with Ed’s. It’s easy to be optimistic when you’ve won your first two games, but we’ll see at the end of the year just how much we did, or didn’t miss Ed. I still have concerns that what Portland gained in spacing will be nullified by what they lost defensively and on the boards.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Well of course there's not a huge market for back up bigs, especially in a year when teams didn't have a lot of cap room to begin with, the league (not just the Blazers) is still trying to recenter it's FA signing's after a couple summer of just ridiculous contracts. I believe you actually see teams do value guys with Ed type skillsets (even contenders), Jordan Bell gets his minutes in Golden State for example.

At the beginning of free agency, a lot of teams had more than enough cap space to top BRK's offer, but chose to go in other directions. BRK used the Room Exception to sign Ed, which was less than the Tax Payer MLE and about half of the full MLE.

The truth is a lot of those exceptions went unused. For as much shit as Neil caught this summer, POR was one of the few tax paying teams (other than GSW who had Demarcus Cousins fall in their lap) to use a significant portion of their Tax Payer MLE when he signed Seth Curry and Gary Trent Jr. - two shooters.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

6MOY voters - journalists and broadcasters. Wouldn’t put much, if any, weight into their opinions. Zach isn’t going to sniff the award either, doesn’t mean we should minimize his impact. Same with Ed’s. It’s easy to be optimistic when you’ve won your first two games, but we’ll see at the end of the year just how much we did, or didn’t miss Ed. I still have concerns that what Portland gained in spacing will be nullified by what they lost defensively and on the boards.

Ed isn't a better defender than Moe or Zach...

 

[crandc]

Boob-No-More, no more nonsense, once again BNM is the voice of reason.

 

[Scalma]

Ed isn't a better defender than Moe or Zach...

And? It’s Meyers/Layman that are on the court now that he’s gone.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

At the beginning of free agency, a lot of teams had more than enough cap space to top BRK's offer, but chose to go in other directions. BRK used the Room Exception to sign Ed, which was less than the Tax Payer MLE and about half of the full MLE.

The truth is a lot of those exceptions went unused. For as much shit as Neil caught this summer, POR was one of the few tax paying teams (other than GSW who had Demarcus Cousins fall in their lap) to use a significant portion of their Tax Payer MLE when he signed Seth Curry and Gary Trent Jr. - two shooters.

BNM

Teams are still trying to get out from all the over spending they did, and really I think most of NBA world knows there is maybe 3-4 contenders this year so most of them aren't willing to spend the tax if they won't be legitimate contenders. The GM survey kind of backed that notion up. I don't like Neil, for a lot of reasons but I didn't really bring it up, not sure why you keep bringing it up.
My point to begin with in this conversation was that it's way to early to start proclaiming that Zach is ready, or isn't ready. It's 2 games. When I mentioned that Davis was a better rebounder, it was more a point that they're different players than well one is better than the other.

 

[BonesJones]

And? It’s Meyers/Layman that are on the court now that he’s gone.

Layman's In the court because Moe is coming back from injury. Meyers has only seen the floor because Nurk/Collins have been getting into foul trouble. Even then, Meyers is playing like 15% of the game.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Layman's In the court because Moe is coming back from injury. Meyers has only seen the floor because Nurk/Collins have been getting into foul trouble. Even then, Meyers is playing like 15% of the game.

and is holding his own during that 15%. starting the season out fairly solid and i'm speaking mostly of his decision making.

 

[hoopsjock]

To me its really early its been two games, to pronounce Collins is good and ready. Ed is still a way better rebounder than collins.

You really don't want Collins to be good, lol.

 

[Scalma]

Layman's In the court because Moe is coming back from injury. Meyers has only seen the floor because Nurk/Collins have been getting into foul trouble. Even then, Meyers is playing like 15% of the game.

Meyers will play more once Harkless gets put back into the starting lineup. Zach’s minutes from last year will still have to be filled by someone. If it’s not Meyers, Layman would be next in line.

Right now everything is cool because the second unit is scoring, but all the second chances Ed gave the team with his offensive rebounding is going to be magnified when the shots aren’t falling. To say we’re better off without Ed everywhere on the court is non sense to me.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You really don't want Collins to be good, lol.

Not true at all, I do want him to be good, I just dont want to get my hopes up after 2 games. I want it to be consistant, and a larger sample size than what weve seen. If he ends up being good consistantly the Blazers will be really good this year. In fact the way he’s played so far, if he plays that way then I think your 54 wins is within reach.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Meyers will play more once Harkless gets put back into the starting lineup. Zach’s minutes from last year will still have to be filled by someone. If it’s not Meyers, Layman would be next in line.

Right now everything is cool because the second unit is scoring, but all the second chances Ed gave the team with his offensive rebounding is going to be magnified when the shots aren’t falling.

Enter Swannigan . I think your forgetting about him. not that he is likely to have a major impact, but when you are talking about in the paint and rebounding presence, I would hope that Stotts goes to Biggie and keeps laymen slashing on the wing.

 

[Scalma]

Enter Swannigan . I think your forgetting about him. not that he is likely to have a major impact, but when you are talking about in the paint and rebounding presence, I would hope that Stotts goes to Biggie and keeps laymen slashing on the wing.

I wish I could forget about him..

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Collins also shot like 30% from 3 last year, He's still going to have to prove that offensively he can hit those shots consistently or teams won't guard him either.
My point wasn't who's better than who between Ed and Zach, my point is that it's really early in the season to make any sort proclamation like oh Zach's this or that. Last year's sample size showed us he's an effective defender but his offensive game is really spotty, he had good offensive games here or there last year. I just think we should wait and see what he looks like with a larger sample size.
Again, the LA team he blocked 6 shots against spent a lot of time with Kyle Kuzma as their "center" in that game.

Not to belabor this, but I still don't think I'm making myself clear - it's about the direction the team is moving in. Ed Davis is a very good player, but his skillset does not match up with the type of game the Blazers are trying to play. Zach's does.

 

[BigGameDamian]

HCP you have tommorows game thread ready yet?

 

[BonesJones]

Meyers will play more once Harkless gets put back into the starting lineup. Zach’s minutes from last year will still have to be filled by someone. If it’s not Meyers, Layman would be next in line.

Right now everything is cool because the second unit is scoring, but all the second chances Ed gave the team with his offensive rebounding is going to be magnified when the shots aren’t falling. To say we’re better off without Ed everywhere on the court is non sense to me.

How? Moe will just absorb Jake's minutes, with Stauskas playing a little more SF and Curry playing a little more. They'll be absorbed by committee.

Lillard (36) / Curry (12)
McCollum (35) / Curry (6) / Stauskas (7)
Harkless (12) / Turner (25) / Stauskas (11)
Aminu (32) / Harkless (16)
Nurkic (28) / Collins (20)

Something like that.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Not to belabor this, but I still don't think I'm making myself clear - it's about the direction the team is moving in. Ed Davis is a very good player, but his skillset does not match up with the type of game the Blazers are trying to play. Zach's does.

My point is until Zach does it consistantly its hard to say that his skillset actually does fit the teams direction better than Ed’s. What if on the year he ends up back at 30% from 3 and teams are giving him the aminu treatment because they dont believe he can beat them out there? I think we should stop talking about Ed lets just forget that part of this conversation. To me its about Zach, if Zach is capable of being an efficient scorer, and maintain his already good defense than yes the Blazers will be a much better team this year. Bringing up Ed was a mistake, because my point is just that we havent seen Zach be effective on offense enough times to know what his skillset really is, again its 2 games. In a month, we’ll know a little more and maybe the answer yup Zach is exactly what they needed.

 

[BonesJones]

Enter Swannigan . I think your forgetting about him. not that he is likely to have a major impact, but when you are talking about in the paint and rebounding presence, I would hope that Stotts goes to Biggie and keeps laymen slashing on the wing.

How is Swanigan, in any way, a paint presence?

And I'm not sure he can even rebound at as high of a level as some people think he can.

Biggie shouldn't play though, that I'm sure of.

 

[BonesJones]

The point in trying to make is that what we lose in offensive rebounding is made up by Collins defense and offensive ability.

Meyers and Layman don't have to play. With Stauskas looking solid and having the ability to play SF, Harkless can start at the 3 and be the 2nd string PF behind Aminu, with Collins and Nurk holding down the 5 spot. So viewing it as "Were worse because those guys are playing" isn't fully valid, as they're playing due to Harkless still recovering, IMO. Even then, I think we're better off with Collins playing Eds minutes... his defense is really that good.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The point in trying to make is that what we lose in offensive rebounding is made up by Collins defense and offensive ability.

Meyers and Layman don't have to play. With Stauskas looking solid and having the ability to play SF, Harkless can start at the 3 and be the 2nd string PF behind Aminu, with Collins and Nurk holding down the 5 spot. So viewing it as "Were worse because those guys are playing" isn't fully valid, as they're playing due to Harkless still recovering, IMO. Even then, I think we're better off with Collins playing Eds minutes... his defense is really that good.

My point is Zach was pretty much awful on offense most of last year his percentages were all bad. This year he scores 6 points and 11 points and all of a sudden people are talking about him like hes an offensive savant, and I just think we should slow down and let things play out to see if his offense is coming around or not. I know his defense is good, and to some extent I understand the thought process behind the Ed Davis stuff. Just all this talk of his “offensive skillset” to me is like well lets play some more games before we determine what his skillset is, they havent even played a roadgame...