GAME THREAD: Bulls @ Blazers 11/18/2012

[KingSpeed]

Vikings running back Adrian Peterson.

Gotcha

 

[Denny Crane]

Triple teamed? LeBron guarded him straight up.

Sorry, but no. LeBron guarded him in Q4 of a couple games, but he still had two other defenders helping him. Particularly meeting Rose at half court.

 

[RR7]

so three heat players met rose at half court? gimme a break Denny.

 

[Denny Crane]

so three heat players met rose at half court? gimme a break Denny.

Yes, they did.

So did the Pacers and Hawks.

The Bulls didn't (and still don't) have a second guy who can dribble, pass, manufacture shots for himself or for others. By rushing him at half court, you either kill a bunch of the shot clock, force the Bulls to start their offensive set much further from the basket, or take the ball out of Rose's hands.

If you check the stats for the playoffs two seasons ago, you'll see Rose had to force shots and his teammates didn't help at all. You might take it that the plays didn't work very well starting near half court.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Yes, they did.

So did the Pacers and Hawks.

The Bulls didn't (and still don't) have a second guy who can dribble, pass, manufacture shots for himself or for others. By rushing him at half court, you either kill a bunch of the shot clock, force the Bulls to start their offensive set much further from the basket, or take the ball out of Rose's hands.

If you check the stats for the playoffs two seasons ago, you'll see Rose had to force shots and his teammates didn't help at all. You might take it that the plays didn't work very well starting near half court.

So, what you're saying is it's a lot easier to shut down a team's offense that relies too heavily on one player, no matter how great that player is - even if he's the MVP?

Too bad the Bulls didn't have a Big 3 to match up better against the Heat.

BNM

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I don't think Rose is all that, to be honest. He was pretty inefficient before Thibodeau showed up. I think Thibodeau makes him look good the way Larry Brown made Iverson look good. But Thibodeau is a bigger part of their success than Rose is. Hell, Noah might be more important than Rose.

 

[Denny Crane]

So, what you're saying is it's a lot easier to shut down a team's offense that relies too heavily on one player, no matter how great that player is - even if he's the MVP?

Too bad the Bulls didn't have a Big 3 to match up better against the Heat.

BNM

They didn't have a second guy to go with Rose who is a steady 20 PPG scorer.

 

[Boob-No-More]

They didn't have a second guy to go with Rose who is a steady 20 PPG scorer.

It's easier to stop 1 guy than 2. It's easier to stop 2 than 3...

The Blazers Big 3 still have a long way to go, but Lillard and Batum are still very young and even Aldridge is only 27. Will any of them develop into an MVP level player, only time will tell. I think Lillard has the most upside, but also the longest way to go. I do like the fact that they have complimentary scoring abilities and can create offense in several different ways. Aldridge can post up, or he can pick and pop - which opens the middle for Lillard to penetrate Lillard can also draw fouls and he can hit the 3. Batum can hit the 3, he now has a deadly pull-up, step back mid-range jumper that is almost impossible to defend, and he's moving well without the ball. Even if the defense takes away one of those options, you still have multiple other ways to score. That was always the problem with Nate's all-iso-all-the-time offense. It was too limited, relied too much on one player (Brandon Roy - our near MVP level player, before the knees went south) and too easy to shut down - especially in a long series. Now we have three legitimate scoring threats and an offense that uses all of them.

The problem with Rose's Bulls (other than injuries), they don't even have a Big 2, let alone a Big 3. Stop Rose and you beat the Bulls. That's something that's very easy to game plan for in a seven game play-off series. The Bulls have several good to very good players, but no one that can consistently create their own offense without help from Rose.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

It's easier to stop 1 guy than 2. It's easier to stop 2 than 3...

The Blazers Big 3 still have a long way to go, but Lillard and Batum are still very young and even Aldridge is only 27. Will any of them develop into an MVP level player, only time will tell. I think Lillard has the most upside, but also the longest way to go. I do like the fact that they have complimentary scoring abilities and can create offense in several different ways. Aldridge can post up, or he can pick and pop - which opens the middle for Lillard to penetrate Lillard can also draw fouls and he can hit the 3. Batum can hit the 3, he now has a deadly pull-up, step back mid-range jumper that is almost impossible to defend, and he's moving well without the ball. Even if the defense takes away one of those options, you still have multiple other ways to score. That was always the problem with Nate's all-iso-all-the-time offense. It was too limited, relied too much on one player (Brandon Roy - our near MVP level player, before the knees went south) and too easy to shut down - especially in a long series. Now we have three legitimate scoring threats and an offense that uses all of them.

The problem with Rose's Bulls (other than injuries), they don't even have a Big 2, let alone a Big 3. Stop Rose and you beat the Bulls. That's something that's very easy to game plan for in a seven game play-off series. The Bulls have several good to very good players, but no one that can consistently create their own offense without help from Rose.

BNM

So if Lillard gets triple teamed, LMA is going to be your primary ball handler and play maker?

 

[Boob-No-More]

They didn't have a second guy to go with Rose who is a steady 20 PPG scorer.

Well, Carlos Boozer was a 20ppg scorer in Utah, before he came to the Bulls, just like LeBron James was a 30ppg scorer in Cleveland, before he went to Miami.

So, by your definition the Bulls did have a second 20ppg scorer. The problem is, he can't create his own offense. He needs an elite PG to set him up for easy baskets. When other teams force the ball out of Rose's hands, they don't just neutralize Rose, but Boozer as well. Your offense relies too much on a single player.

BNM

 

[RR7]

So if Lillard gets triple teamed, LMA is going to be your primary ball handler and play maker?

If your team loses having 4 guys covered by 2 then you suck badly. 2 people open, maybe Rose should try to find one of them?

 

[Boob-No-More]

So if Lillard gets triple teamed, LMA is going to be your primary ball handler and play maker?

No, Batum will be. He will play the point forward roll. Or, move Lillard to the SG position and add a second PG to the line-up. The Blazers regularly play Lillard at the 2 alongside Ronnie Price at the point for a few short stretches every game. Take the ball out of Lillard's hands and Batum or Price (for now) can feed Aldridge in the post. That option will only get better in the future when the Blazers add a better back-up PG to their roster.

Ironically, I think this is EXACTLY what the Bulls were thinking when they reacquired Kirk Hinrich. They could play him and Rose together. Hinrich is capable of guarding 2s and can help distribute the ball when other teams force it out of Rose's hands. Unfortunately, Rose hasn't been healthy enough to see if this works, or not. Plus, Hinrich isn't as good as he once was. He isn't much of a scoring threat any more, but he can still play defense and pass the ball and would probably look a lot better playing alongside of Rose instead of in place of him.

BNM

 

[ABM]

So, Dame cemented the game with a meaningless dunk? Hey, I don't give a rip if da Bulls are upset, or not. LOVE that 'tude!

 

[oldguy]

What about the NBA Finals? If Rose comes back, they could make it.

Wait. What? I thought the season was over?

Go Blazers

 

[Boob-No-More]

So, Dame cemented the game with a meaningless dunk? Hey, I don't give a rip if da Bulls are upset, or not. LOVE that 'tude!

The dunk was meaningless and didn't effect the outcome of the game one way or the other. It just gave the Bulls something to focus on other than their own ineptitude. If they want to be pissed, they should be pissed about giving up 10 offense rebounds, that they had 19 TOs that lead to a ton of easy Portland points and failed to defend the 3-point line. I guarantee you those are the things Tom Thibodeau is most upset about, not some meaningless dunk by a rookie.

BNM

 

[3RA1N1AC]

we went through this before

the bulls had not conceded defeat, as evidenced by their numerous fouls in the last 30 seconds. they were trying to extend the game, semi needlessly i might add.

so all of the sudden, dame has to what...look around and ask "hey are you guys good yet? game over yet?" for all he knows they are about to foul off the ball or god knows what, it was a mess at the end there

the bulls cant just flip a switch from "we are still trying to win!" to "we concede the game!" in a matter of 2 seconds and get pissed when everybody doesnt get the memo on time

fuck that shit, dunk the ball and go home

 

[mgb]

we went through this before

the bulls had not conceded defeat, as evidenced by their numerous fouls in the last 30 seconds. they were trying to extend the game, semi needlessly i might add.

so all of the sudden, dame has to what...look around and ask "hey are you guys good yet? game over yet?" for all he knows they are about to foul off the ball or god knows what, it was a mess at the end there

the bulls cant just flip a switch from "we are still trying to win!" to "we concede the game!" in a matter of 2 seconds and get pissed when everybody doesnt get the memo on time

fuck that shit, dunk the ball and go home

Ya, Lillard at first slows down, but sees a Bull player rushing towards him and then he went up for the dunk.

 

[Boob-No-More]

If they want to be pissed, they should be pissed about giving up 10 offense rebounds, that they had 19 TOs that lead to a ton of easy Portland points and failed to defend the 3-point line. I guarantee you those are the things Tom Thibodeau is most upset about, not some meaningless dunk by a rookie.

In fact, that's pretty much what Thiboeau said: "The defense, the rebounding, the turnovers ... we have to get that part right."

But hey, it's easier to get pissed at some meaningless dunk by a rookie than admit you lost because you just didn't do what you needed to do to win.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, Carlos Boozer was a 20ppg scorer in Utah, before he came to the Bulls, just like LeBron James was a 30ppg scorer in Cleveland, before he went to Miami.

So, by your definition the Bulls did have a second 20ppg scorer. The problem is, he can't create his own offense. He needs an elite PG to set him up for easy baskets. When other teams force the ball out of Rose's hands, they don't just neutralize Rose, but Boozer as well. Your offense relies too much on a single player.

BNM

They didn't have a Pippen type ballhandler to go with the MJ type ballhandler. Boozer ain't it. But Wade is that kind of ballhandler to go with LeBron.

 

[Denny Crane]

If your team loses having 4 guys covered by 2 then you suck badly. 2 people open, maybe Rose should try to find one of them?

Look at the players' playoff totals:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2011.html

I didn't see him making pass after pass from half court to the rim. And guys like Boozer or Deng just aren't take it from the wing to the hole kind of players.

 

[crowTrobot]

Damian Lillard‏@Dame_Lillard
Great win tonight. Made a rookie mistake at the end. Didn't mean any disrespect to the Bulls. Much respect for that team

 

[RR7]

Look at the players' playoff totals:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2011.html

I didn't see him making pass after pass from half court to the rim. And guys like Boozer or Deng just aren't take it from the wing to the hole kind of players.

They were going 4 on 2. They shouldn't have to dribble with that advantage.

 

[Denny Crane]

They were going 4 on 2. They shouldn't have to dribble with that advantage.

Triple teamed, rose didn't have the passing lanes to get the ball to anyone even close to the basket.

Or he would have.

 

[Boob-No-More]

They didn't have a Pippen type ballhandler to go with the MJ type ballhandler. Boozer ain't it. But Wade is that kind of ballhandler to go with LeBron.

Wow you keep changing you criteria with every post. First it was one 30ppg scorer and one 20ppg scorer. Then, when you realized LeBron is no longer a 30ppg scorer, you changed to to one FORMER 30ppg scorer and one 20ppg scorer. So, what are we at now, one MVP level player, who isn't really a 30ppg scorer, and one 20ppg scorer who is also a secondary ballhandler?

In the end it doesn't really matter. Rose isn't good enough to carry the Bulls to a championship by himself, even when he's 100% healthy, and he doesn't have the supporting cast to match up with the other top teams in the league over a 7 game series.

BNM

 

[RR7]

Triple teamed, rose didn't have the passing lanes to get the ball to anyone even close to the basket.

Or he would have.

So every time down, because really, if something was wildly successful, why would you go away from it, derrick Rose was not double, but triple teamed. He could not find teammates to pass the ball to. Yet didn't even average under 4 TOs per game. Gonna go ahead and call bullshit on you. Sorry. Unless you want to show me a game where he was triple teamed the whole time once he got to half court.

 

[Denny Crane]

Wow you keep changing you criteria with every post. First it was one 30ppg scorer and one 20ppg scorer. Then, when you realized LeBron is no longer a 30ppg scorer, you changed to to one FORMER 30ppg scorer and one 20ppg scorer. So, what are we at now, one MVP level player, who isn't really a 30ppg scorer, and one 20ppg scorer who is also a secondary ballhandler?

In the end it doesn't really matter. Rose isn't good enough to carry the Bulls to a championship by himself, even when he's 100% healthy, and he doesn't have the supporting cast to match up with the other top teams in the league over a 7 game series.

BNM

Nope. Rose isn't good enough to carry the Bulls to a championship by himself. No more than LeBron was able to carry the Cavs.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Nope. Rose isn't good enough to carry the Bulls to a championship by himself. No more than LeBron was able to carry the Cavs.

Now, you've come full circle. LeBron needed to team up with two other perennial all-stars to finally win a championship, Some would call that a Big 3. Something the Bulls don't have. They have a Big 1.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

So every time down, because really, if something was wildly successful, why would you go away from it, derrick Rose was not double, but triple teamed. He could not find teammates to pass the ball to. Yet didn't even average under 4 TOs per game. Gonna go ahead and call bullshit on you. Sorry. Unless you want to show me a game where he was triple teamed the whole time once he got to half court.

His stats and his teammates' stats speak for themselves. He wasn't able to create for them.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20..._wade-and-james-erik-spoelstra-mario-chalmers

From here, any lessons will be costly. Indiana's first-round series against Chicago provided a telling blueprint of solving Rose and, thus, solving Chicago. Paul George, a 6-8 rookie, headlined the defense on him much of the time. So it went with length on him.

Indiana also used 6-2 Brandon Rush and a defense that effectively trapped Rose whenever he touched the ball. And it learned. The more Indiana's 17th-ranked defense saw of Rose, the better it performed.

Rose's point totals dropped through the series (39, 36, 23 and 15) until he scored 25 points in the series finale. As telling about his suspect offensive cast, Chicago's points dropped with Rose's output those first four games (104, 95, 88 and 84).

Indiana's problem was it couldn't score enough to make Chicago's lack of offense matter. It didn't have a Wade or LeBron. The Heat have both. They'll make it matter.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/05/miami-heat-defense-limiting-derrick-rose/

And though he had some good moments at times in finishing with 20 points, he didn’t do nearly enough to swing the game in Chicago’s favor … ‘They’re doubling me every pick and roll. I’m trying to create for others,’ Rose said afterward. ‘That’s what I’m going to try to continue to do, sometimes try to beat the double team, sometimes try to pass and make it easy. They’re closing in on the paint.’ In the fourth quarter, Rose had three assists but also two turnovers, his only two of the game. He closed with just five assists, none in the first half. ‘We’ve got to find a way to find easier baskets,’ he said. Sunday’s performance followed a disappointing Game 2 in which Rose scored 21 but shot just 7 for 23.”

 

[Denny Crane]

Now, you've come full circle. LeBron needed to team up with two other perennial all-stars to finally win a championship, Some would call that a Big 3. Something the Bulls don't have. They have a Big 1.

BNM

Strawman. I never said Rose is good enough to carry a team on his own, or that he has a good enough #2.

 

[RR7]

His stats and his teammates' stats speak for themselves. He wasn't able to create for them.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20..._wade-and-james-erik-spoelstra-mario-chalmers

From here, any lessons will be costly. Indiana's first-round series against Chicago provided a telling blueprint of solving Rose and, thus, solving Chicago. Paul George, a 6-8 rookie, headlined the defense on him much of the time. So it went with length on him.

Indiana also used 6-2 Brandon Rush and a defense that effectively trapped Rose whenever he touched the ball. And it learned. The more Indiana's 17th-ranked defense saw of Rose, the better it performed.

Rose's point totals dropped through the series (39, 36, 23 and 15) until he scored 25 points in the series finale. As telling about his suspect offensive cast, Chicago's points dropped with Rose's output those first four games (104, 95, 88 and 84).

Indiana's problem was it couldn't score enough to make Chicago's lack of offense matter. It didn't have a Wade or LeBron. The Heat have both. They'll make it matter.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/05/miami-heat-defense-limiting-derrick-rose/

And though he had some good moments at times in finishing with 20 points, he didn’t do nearly enough to swing the game in Chicago’s favor … ‘They’re doubling me every pick and roll. I’m trying to create for others,’ Rose said afterward. ‘That’s what I’m going to try to continue to do, sometimes try to beat the double team, sometimes try to pass and make it easy. They’re closing in on the paint.’ In the fourth quarter, Rose had three assists but also two turnovers, his only two of the game. He closed with just five assists, none in the first half. ‘We’ve got to find a way to find easier baskets,’ he said. Sunday’s performance followed a disappointing Game 2 in which Rose scored 21 but shot just 7 for 23.”

His stats don't speak to what you claim, and neither do those articles. Especially mention of putting George on him to bother with length, which implies George was covering him one on one, and not 3 on 1.