Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

[Further]

I was listening to the most recent Joe Rogan podcast and his guest was Buck Angel, a former woman who through hormone therapy is now a man, but without a penis. Still has a higher pitched voice than I would expect coming from someone who looks like this, but damn, if that doesn't look like a man. Interesting podcast for sure, they start talking gender issues about 35 minutes into the episode. Oh, and he's a pornstar also, which adds a whole mother level of interesting.

I'm sorry, if you want to call that anything but a man, Dick or not, you're wrong.

podcast found here

A quick youtube video of him
[video]

http://imgflip.com/memegenerator

http://imgflip.com/memegenerator

http://imgflip.com/memegenerator

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I don't get it. I thought your whole argument about sexuality is it is what they identify with . . . but now you seem to make the argument that his looks makes him a man. Is it the way they look or the way they feel?

 

[Further]

I don't get it. I thought your whole argument about sexuality is it is what they identify with . . . but now you seem to make the argument that his looks makes him a man. Is it the way they look or the way they feel?

He looks so like a man because he has devoted himself to being male. But you are right, I was a bit hypocritical the way I set it up.
I should have referred to him as a man because he views and presents himself as such, not just because he looks manly. I was wrong.

However, I was mainly bringing it up because it was random hearing this podcast right after our long discussion, and it showed me something I have never been exposed to.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

He looks so like a man because he has devoted himself to being male. But you are right, I was a bit hypocritical the way I set it up.
I should have referred to him as a man because he views and presents himself as such, not just because he looks manly.

However, I was mainly bringing it up because it was random hearing this podcast right after our long discussion, and it showed me something I have never been exposed to.

Isn't using hormone therapy to unnaturally change one's gender a form of cheating though? I won't go as far to say that is 100% a man. Its a woman who has undergone medically unnatural procedures to appear as a man.

 

[Further]

Listen to the podcast and then tell if you don't think the hormone therapy saved his life. If it did, I'd say it was needed. And cheating? Are we playing a game of Who Has a Pecker?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Furthermore (har har), would you, if sexually attracted to a "woman" who used to be a man, have no problem dating, having sex, getting married and introducing your "girlfriend/wife" to your family and living life with a 100% confidence that you are heterosexual? (assuming you are heterosexual, if not, then just reverse the roles). You wouldn't bat an eye or be weirded out by it whatsoever?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Listen to the podcast and then tell if you don't think the hormone therapy saved his life. If it did, I'd say it was needed. And cheating? Are we playing a game of Who Has a Pecker?

I don't care to listen to the podcast. My point still stands, this person is nothing more than a science project, hormone replacement is not natural, its essentially building frankenstein. Perhaps they would have killed themself if they didn't go through hormone therapy, perhaps not.

 

[Further]

Oh, by the way El Pres, I also wouldn't say that 100% man. Just a solid majority. But as ToB pointed out, it's not about the 10%, 50% or 90%, it's that gender is more fluid than we thought, and also more malleable nowadays with tech and medical advancements.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

So if you're almost a man, then you should be one? Why not have a third and fourth gender? Is there anything so wrong with that? We have lots of races and ethnicities, maybe its time to expand gender to something other than man and woman.

 

[Further]

Furthermore (har har), would you, if sexually attracted to a "woman" who used to be a man, have no problem dating, having sex, getting married and introducing your "girlfriend/wife" to your family and living life with a 100% confidence that you are heterosexual? (assuming you are heterosexual, if not, then just reverse the roles). You wouldn't bat an eye or be weirded out by it whatsoever?

I would struggle with it. But I hope that if that day came, I would choose love over my bigotry. I admit fully that it's normal for many including myself to feel awkward in situations like this, it takes time and openness to feel completely at ease. I'm sure many feel that way with gay people, but I grew up with so many close to me that I feel perfectly at ease loving my gay friends.

But now, when we aren't directly being confronted is the time to think clearly on the subject and realize they are just people. Not saying you should marry a transgender person, just that you should show them the respect of addressing them as they wish. Not mocking them, and if you do meet them, treat them like a human and not some ungodly thing. (I'm not saying you would, I'm just using the more general "you")

 

[Further]

So if you're almost a man, then you should be one? Why not have a third and fourth gender? Is there anything so wrong with that? We have lots of races and ethnicities, maybe its time to expand gender to something other than man and woman.

Why? What does it hurt to refer to a person as they prefer.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I don't know what to think about this transgender issue and quite frankly it makes my head spin.

Another poster brought up a good point that has stuck with me. For a male, what does "feel like a woman" mean. There is nothing wrong for a man to like things that were traditionally associated with female. But in today's society, is there really any traditional traits associated with male and female.

If a guy likes dolls, make up whatever. . . so what, that is no longer viewed as only things woman like. A guy can live a life acting and feeling like what was traditionally associated with woman and in today's world that is just another type of male out there.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but basically what really defines male v female beside the biological definitions.

If a female wants to take hormone injects, buff out and grow facial hair, great. If she wants to be referred to as a him and it will makes his life easier, I'm OK with that I guess. But then I would like to be referred to as Lord Treaty_of_Batum.

I joke because i don't know what to make of all this . . .

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Why? What does it hurt to refer to a person as they prefer.

To be more specific. Also, to refer to a person as they prefer assumes that one is mentally cognizant. Some people do not have the mental capacity or ability to accurately asses who they are.

Why not classify people accurately as who they are? Male/Female seems to be too limiting. Its like having only a black and white race and you have to be one or the other.

 

[Further]

I don't know what to think about this transgender issue and quite frankly it makes my head spin.

Another poster brought up a good point that has stuck with me. For a male, what does "feel like a woman" mean. There is nothing wrong for a man to like things that were traditionally associated with female. But in today's society, is there really any traditional traits associated with male and female.

If a guy likes dolls, make up whatever. . . so what, that is no longer viewed as only things woman like. A guy can live a life acting and feeling like what was traditionally associated with woman and in today's world that is just another type of male out there.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but basically what really defines male v female beside the biological definitions.

If a female wants to take hormone injects, buff out and grow facial hair, great. If she wants to be referred to as a him and it will makes his life easier, I'm OK with that I guess. But then I would like to be referred to as Lord Treaty_of_Batum.

I joke because i don't know what to make of all this . . .

Only if you grow a beard also.


It's a odd situation. No doubt about it. But if it's odd for us to talk about, imagine how confusing it is to be that person.

Honestly ToB, check out the podcast, skip the first ten minutes, just ads, but after that it's just a discussion, joking around, talking serious issues and just shooting the shit. But about 35 minutes in is where this topic comes up and they stay on the topic for a while.

 

[Further]

To be more specific. Also, to refer to a person as they prefer assumes that one is mentally cognizant. Some people do not have the mental capacity or ability to accurately asses who they are.

Why not classify people accurately as who they are? Male/Female seems to be too limiting. Its like having only a black and white race and you have to be one or the other.

Well, who they are is not quite as easy as dick or no dick, but if you have 4 categories, male, female, AAAAA and BBBBB, then first we are ostracizing a group of people and might as well be labeling them something pejorative. But mainly, that still doesn't do anything to fix the problem, a woman who feels like a man and decides to convert is doing so because they are male, want to be treated as such, not because they feel like they were a man born into the body of a BBBBB. Your solution if anything would just alienate the person further from society.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Is Further trying to tell us something?

 

[Further]

Is Further trying to tell us something?

Well, I'm a man trapped in a girls body, swallowed by a man.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Well, who they are is not quite as easy as dick or no dick, but if you have 4 categories, male, female, AAAAA and BBBBB, then first we are ostracizing a group of people and might as well be labeling them something pejorative. But mainly, that still doesn't do anything to fix the problem, a woman who feels like a man and decides to convert is doing so because they are male, want to be treated as such, not because they feel like they were a man born into the body of a BBBBB. Your solution if anything would just alienate the person further from society.

So this is about psychological feelings and sociology and not biological accuracy.

hoop fam

 

[MARIS61]

To be more specific. Also, to refer to a person as they prefer assumes that one is mentally cognizant. Some people do not have the mental capacity or ability to accurately asses who they are.

Why not classify people accurately as who they are? Male/Female seems to be too limiting. Its like having only a black and white race and you have to be one or the other.

Why classify people at all? We all have names.

 

[barfo]

Why classify people at all? We all have names.

Some of us, tragically, are born without names. It's wrong to be namist.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Some of us, tragically, are born without names. It's wrong to be namist.

barfo

[video=youtube;0WjHyA7-Iys]

 

[crandc]

Further, I don't think you were being "hypocritical", just unclear. Hypocrisy implies bad intentions which I trust you do not have.

Transgender is not "a boy who likes to play with dolls". My brother, growing up with two older sisters, played with our dolls when he was very young. He is straight, married, cis-gender. But not macho; I raised him better than that (well, so did our mother); he is a firm believer in equality and his marriage is on equal lines. Playing with dolls does not transgender make.

I raised this before - all of you, from the time you were conscious, knew you were a boy (or girl). Transpeople are just the same although the gender they know themselves to be does not match physical genitals. It is not "thinking you're a girl" or "playing with dolls" or "being butch". It is not gender nonconformity.

This has been patiently explained so many times that I am forced to conclude some people don't wish to understand.

However, it is basic courtesy to address and refer to people in the way they prefer. A transwoman is "she". A transman is "he". Not it. Not shemale. Not he/she. And not the pronoun they are not.

 

[Eastoff]

So if you're almost a man, then you should be one? Why not have a third and fourth gender? Is there anything so wrong with that? We have lots of races and ethnicities, maybe its time to expand gender to something other than man and woman.

For the record, there is scientifically 5 genders. Male as we think of them. People with a penis, vagina, and testicles only. People with a penis vagina, testicles, and ovaries, people with a penis, vagina, and ovaries only, females as we think of them. There are also XX, XY, and XXY, and XYY.

 

[Denny Crane]

Why? What does it hurt to refer to a person as they prefer.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

http://www.weirdworldfacts.com/once-bullied-boy-turns-heart-throbbing-model/

 

[oldguy]

I believe (maybe mistakenly) that most here would address a TS as the pronoun they prefer when they were present. I doubt that anyone here would purposely make an effort to hurt the feelings of the TG person. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't continue to refer to him/her by their biological sex when they are not present, though.

Go Blazers

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Furthermore (har har), would you, if sexually attracted to a "woman" who used to be a man, have no problem dating, having sex, getting married and introducing your "girlfriend/wife" to your family and living life with a 100% confidence that you are heterosexual? (assuming you are heterosexual, if not, then just reverse the roles). You wouldn't bat an eye or be weirded out by it whatsoever?

Why does it matter? Do people actually go through life worrying they might be 5% gay?

I don't care to listen to the podcast. My point still stands, this person is nothing more than a science project, hormone replacement is not natural, its essentially building frankenstein. Perhaps they would have killed themself if they didn't go through hormone therapy, perhaps not.

Says the guy who works in plastic surgery. "The person is nothing more than a science project." Yes, because our gender defines who we are as people.

So if you're almost a man, then you should be one? Why not have a third and fourth gender? Is there anything so wrong with that? We have lots of races and ethnicities, maybe its time to expand gender to something other than man and woman.

There are examples of a "third" gender in several cultures. It's not beyond reality. Also, under the LGBTQ umbrella there are people who are "gender queer", who see themselves as somewhere in between "man" and "woman."

To be more specific. Also, to refer to a person as they prefer assumes that one is mentally cognizant. Some people do not have the mental capacity or ability to accurately asses who they are.

What is this, 1940? Maybe we should give them electroshock to see if that makes them normal again.

Why not classify people accurately as who they are? Male/Female seems to be too limiting. Its like having only a black and white race and you have to be one or the other.

It is too limiting, and society is moving in the direction of classifying people as who they self-identify as. We will get there, no matter who is yelling in the background about how they are just crazy, deviant, Frankensteins.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Why does it matter? Do people actually go through life worrying they might be 5% gay?
Says the guy who works in plastic surgery. "The person is nothing more than a science project." Yes, because our gender defines who we are as people. There are examples of a "third" gender in several cultures. It's not beyond reality. Also, under the LGBTQ umbrella there are people who are "gender queer", who see themselves as somewhere in between "man" and "woman." What is this, 1940? Maybe we should give them electroshock to see if that makes them normal again. It is too limiting, and society is moving in the direction of classifying people as who they self-identify as. We will get there, no matter who is yelling in the background about how they are just crazy, deviant, Frankensteins.

I posed a simple question. The crux of the matter is whether or not a transgender person who claims to be a female is really female. To me, they will always be a transgender and I will personally see them as that no matter what kind of scientific modifications they do to their body. Further seems to think they should be interchangeable, so I asked if he would be comfortable putting his dick where his mouth is. I doubt that most people would see a transgender person who became female and a female on the same playing field.

And there is a big difference between changing the angle of your nose or cutting fat out and actually going in and changing your body chemistry through hormone injections.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I posed a simple question. The crux of the matter is whether or not a transgender person who claims to be a female is really female.

Your question isn't so simple. By who's standard? And with what consequences?

To me, they will always be a transgender and I will personally see them as that no matter what kind of scientific modifications they do to their body. Further seems to think they should be interchangeable, so I asked if he would be comfortable putting his dick where his mouth is. I doubt that most people would see a transgender person who became female and a female on the same playing field.

You seem to be only approaching this issue from a "fuckability" perspective. Which is, yeah, I get it. That's the modus operandi of most people. But sexual attraction is not at the top of the list of issues with self-identification and self-expression. Someone who feels as if they should be female shouldn't have to take into consideration whether some random bro from LA thinks they will be as hot as someone born female.

And there is a big difference between changing the angle of your nose or cutting fat out and actually going in and changing your body chemistry through hormone injections.

It's just a matter of scale. We alter our bodies physically and chemically for all sorts of reasons all the time.

 

[crandc]

Oldguy, if you would call a transperson his or her appropriate gender terminology to his or her face, why not always? Is that like saying you would not call an African-American the "n word" if he/she was present but would behind his/her back? Wouldn't call a woman a b----- or a gay man a f----- et al if they were present but would if they weren't? Why not use appropriate terms at all times? It's not difficult.

Since people are so obsesses with sex with transpeople, I had a brief relationship with a transwoman - and I did not even know she was trans for some time. She was just tall. Otherwise no different from any other woman. If you didn't know, you wouldn't know.

Ah, my wild youth.