Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

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hoojacks said:
The modern argument distinguishes between gender and sex. Gender (man vs woman) is a social construct. What it means to be either is dependent on the culture one was born into. Sex (male vs female vs intersex) is biological. So, yes, someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex.
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Is there evidence of what you call "gender" other than how certain people feel?
 
This might help:

World Health Organization said:
Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.
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http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
 
hoojacks said:
Since you appear to be the arbiter of reality, what would you define as the real world? Are all social sciences useless wastes of time, or just the ones that attempt to understand transgendered people?
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I think you mean social "arts" not "sciences".


hoojacks said:
Wow. Are you really unaware that there is a whole community of transgendered people? Or is their self-identification merely hypothetical academic mumbo jumbo?
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I am fully aware. Please ask them if they feel they are men but females. Then your argument will have some validity.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
I don't really know.. I guess I just don't get why this definition of gender you talk about even exists. It just unnecessarily classifies and separates people.
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The classification of gender as a social construct comes from an examination of social tendencies. All this definition of gender is doing is describing how the concept of gender is actualized in the real world. It is simply a model.
 
MarAzul said:
Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
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"
Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogroves
And the nome raths outgrabe
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".

I can quote, too! From memory! And frankly I think Lewis Carroll makes more sense.
 
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imho (not that any of you asked), but anytime you quote the bible to defend your opinion on something, you really open yourself up to a lot of questions about some of the inconsistencies of the bible and why people seem to pick and choose certain areas of the bible to bring up.
 
crandc said:
"".

I can quote, too! From memory! And frankly I think Lewis Carroll makes more sense.
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repped, partially for the snarky response, partly for having me remember the Jabberwocky.
 
julius said:
imho (not that any of you asked), but anytime you quote the bible to defend your opinion on something, you really open yourself up to a lot of questions about some of the inconsistencies of the bible and why people seem to pick and choose certain areas of the bible to bring up.
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I am open, have at it! Jesus SlyPokerDog is a feeble little prick.
 
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For those who take the "gender differs from sex" perspective in this debate, this is what I'm hearing. Sex is objectively defined biologically; there is no debate. Gender is self-defined by the individual, cannot be measured, and is by definition, subjective. Being subjective, that means that one's perspective on it cannot be deemed "wrong" by another.

Am I off base here?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
For those who take the "gender differs from sex" perspective in this debate, this is what I'm hearing. Sex is objectively defined biologically; there is no debate. Gender is self-defined by the individual, cannot be measured, and is by definition, subjective. Being subjective, that means that one's perspective on it cannot be deemed "wrong" by another.

Am I off base here?
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Sex is objectively defined by biology, yes. However, there are always grey areas, as some people are not born outwardly male or female. The traditional practice (at least in the West) has been to take the "in between" cases (i.e. people born as intersex) and perform surgery early on in order to essentially "pick a side."

Gender is a matter of self-identification, yes. But again, it is also a social construct. Therefore, whether accept our gender that was assigned to us at birth or not, people will usually think of us as the gender they perceive us to be.

It's biology vs. culture. Just as some people may think that all Asians naturally like to eat rice, others may think that all women naturally like to sew, or cook, or wear make up. They are both wrong, as these things are cultural aspects and not essential to one's biology.

EDIT: Sorry, got sidetracked. In short, you've pretty much got it right.
 
So what I'm hearing is that I have to view the world from someone else's viewpoint at the expense of my own? I have to lie about what I see and feel to make others feel better?

I have no problem with transgender people. I will be kind to them, respect them, and can be friends with them (my cousin has toed the line and had started hormone therapy, but ultimately decided against a change). She never needed to be referred to as a man, so I haven't had the full experience of calling her something I felt she wasn't. But if we are polite and respectful and can refer to a girl that wants to be referred to as a man, as a man in-person, why does it matter if we refer to her as a girl when not in her presence? Why should I alter my world view to someone else's view? Why would I be forced to live a lie in my head? Why do I need to put someone else above myself? It seems like a fair compromise that I give in and refer to someone how they want to be referred to in their presence (and live from their perspective and worldview) and I can stick to my beliefs when not in their presence. I dont' see anything wrong with that.

I'm not necessarily saying this from my actual point of view or how I really view the situation, but I am trying to gain understanding from how crandc, hoojacks, further, etc. look at this and can say they're right and everyone else is wrong. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate to their point of view. I'm just of the belief if you respect someone, and you respect and stay true to yourself, be kind to everyone else, etc... then what else matters? We should all be able to have our our POV's without people trying to change them if we are at least respectful to others.
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
So what I'm hearing is that I have to view the world from someone else's viewpoint at the expense of my own? I have to lie about what I see and feel to make others feel better?

I have no problem with transgender people. I will be kind to them, respect them, and can be friends with them (my cousin has toed the line and had started hormone therapy, but ultimately decided against a change). She never needed to be referred to as a man, so I haven't had the full experience of calling her something I felt she wasn't. But if we are polite and respectful and can refer to a girl that wants to be referred to as a man, as a man in-person, why does it matter if we refer to her as a girl when not in her presence? Why should I alter my world view to someone else's view? Why would I be forced to live a lie in my head? Why do I need to put someone else above myself? It seems like a fair compromise that I give in and refer to someone how they want to be referred to in their presence (and live from their perspective and worldview) and I can stick to my beliefs when not in their presence. I dont' see anything wrong with that.

I'm not necessarily saying this from my actual point of view or how I really view the situation, but I am trying to gain understanding from how crandc, hoojacks, further, etc. look at this and can say they're right and everyone else is wrong. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate to their point of view. I'm just of the belief if you respect someone, and you respect and stay true to yourself, be kind to everyone else, etc... then what else matters? We should all be able to have our our POV's without people trying to change them if we are at least respectful to others.
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Well put. Repped.

My response is that this whole thing arose from the nature of conversation on this board. I think what you said is correct: you can believe what you believe as long as you're respectful to people. What happened is that some people were not being respectful, because this is the internet and people are semi-anonymous, and other people responded to that disrespect.

But things around here tend to be hyperbolic. We usually just shout our worldview at each other and hope something sticks. Nobody is saying that you have to change your beliefs (at least I'm not.) What I try to do is meet disrespect with information. I want to show the people who are being disrespectful just how disrespectful they are being. Because honestly, they may not realize it. And if they continue to make disrespectful comments, then it's on them.
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
So what I'm hearing is that I have to view the world from someone else's viewpoint at the expense of my own? I have to lie about what I see and feel to make others feel better?

I have no problem with transgender people. I will be kind to them, respect them, and can be friends with them (my cousin has toed the line and had started hormone therapy, but ultimately decided against a change). She never needed to be referred to as a man, so I haven't had the full experience of calling her something I felt she wasn't. But if we are polite and respectful and can refer to a girl that wants to be referred to as a man, as a man in-person, why does it matter if we refer to her as a girl when not in her presence? Why should I alter my world view to someone else's view? Why would I be forced to live a lie in my head? Why do I need to put someone else above myself? It seems like a fair compromise that I give in and refer to someone how they want to be referred to in their presence (and live from their perspective and worldview) and I can stick to my beliefs when not in their presence. I dont' see anything wrong with that.

I'm not necessarily saying this from my actual point of view or how I really view the situation, but I am trying to gain understanding from how crandc, hoojacks, further, etc. look at this and can say they're right and everyone else is wrong. I guess I'm playing devil's advocate to their point of view. I'm just of the belief if you respect someone, and you respect and stay true to yourself, be kind to everyone else, etc... then what else matters? We should all be able to have our our POV's without people trying to change them if we are at least respectful to others.
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This represents how I feel pretty well.
 
Lie? It's not lying. It's recognizing someone else sees things differently than you do. And that people know who they are better than you do.

And yes, for the millionth time, it is an insult, and as of now I'd say deliberate, to call a transwoman "he" and a transman "she".
 
hoojacks said:
Well put. Repped.

My response is that this whole thing arose from the nature of conversation on this board. I think what you said is correct: you can believe what you believe as long as you're respectful to people. What happened is that some people were not being respectful, because this is the internet and people are semi-anonymous, and other people responded to that disrespect.

But things around here tend to be hyperbolic. We usually just shout our worldview at each other and hope something sticks. Nobody is saying that you have to change your beliefs (at least I'm not.) What I try to do is meet disrespect with information. I want to show the people who are being disrespectful just how disrespectful they are being. Because honestly, they may not realize it. And if they continue to make disrespectful comments, then it's on them.
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Mediocre Man (and others) have repeatedly received personal attacks because they refer to a biological boy as "he" ON THIS BOARD, not to the boy's face.
 
crandc said:
Lie? It's not lying. It's recognizing someone else sees things differently than you do. And that people know who they are better than you do.

And yes, for the millionth time, it is an insult, and as of now I'd say deliberate, to call a transwoman "he" and a transman "she".
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Yes, it is an insult. And it's an insult when other people are forced to change their beliefs, even if they are intending no disrespect. So your approach is that someone will always lose.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
Mediocre Man (and others) have repeatedly received personal attacks because they refer to a biological boy as "he" ON THIS BOARD, not to the boy's face.
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Read crandc's post. She's telling it like it is.

YOU may not care that you're insulting someone else who's different, but you in fact are. That is, if you call a she a HE because it's YOUR preference.

It's beyond an insult, as it borders on encouraging the violent behavior toward these people that is evidenced by the death threats against the transgendered homecoming queen.

I don't see how you can be respectful toward someone to their face and be disrespectful behind their back. You are, in fact, being disrespectful, period.

Bigot is not an insult. It is a statement of fact. If you are told you are one, deny it and prove you aren't.

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

(I don't see that it's derogatory)
 
hoojacks said:
Well put. Repped.

My response is that this whole thing arose from the nature of conversation on this board. I think what you said is correct: you can believe what you believe as long as you're respectful to people. What happened is that some people were not being respectful, because this is the internet and people are semi-anonymous, and other people responded to that disrespect.

But things around here tend to be hyperbolic. We usually just shout our worldview at each other and hope something sticks. Nobody is saying that you have to change your beliefs (at least I'm not.) What I try to do is meet disrespect with information. I want to show the people who are being disrespectful just how disrespectful they are being. Because honestly, they may not realize it. And if they continue to make disrespectful comments, then it's on them.
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Oh, I know where you're coming from. I respect it. We're from the same generation, so I'm on your page for the most part (as I believe much of our generation is - there has been a big shift with each generation). I have a heavy science and mathematics background. I view many things from that approach/viewpoint, but I also have an understanding of love, compassion, respect for others. So while I have my beliefs and my viewpoints that at times have boundaries, I hardly consider them narrow, as my respect and love of others balances what I observe of others. I don't really care if you're straight, gay, transgender, transsexual, whatever. I'll respect you, as long as you're respecting me. And if you're cool, it's quite likely we'll be friends. I have a lot of "weird" friends as many people would call them. To them, I'm pretty simple/straight forward dude, so I'm probably weird to them. As much fun as we have, and as many similarities as we might have, it's actually our differences and varying beliefs that make the friendships valuable. I grew up hanging out with crowds that all thought so similarly, and it was easy and comfortable, and we were peer-pressured into seeing and believing the same things. It's quite cool to hang with a crowd of people with such different values and beliefs, but we all love and respect one-another and our varying beliefs.
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
Yes, it is an insult. And it's an insult when other people are forced to change their beliefs, even if they are intending no disrespect. So your approach is that someone will always lose.
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Doesn't it depend on the belief? If someone is asking you to change your belief in or against a higher power I agree but if you're being asked to change how you address or label a person of color I would say that your beliefs should change.
 
Denny Crane said:
Read crandc's post. She's telling it like it is.

YOU may not care that you're insulting someone else who's different, but you in fact are. That is, if you call a she a HE because it's YOUR preference.

It's beyond an insult, as it borders on encouraging the violent behavior toward these people that is evidenced by the death threats against the transgendered homecoming queen.

I don't see how you can be respectful toward someone to their face and be disrespectful behind their back. You are, in fact, being disrespectful, period.

Bigot is not an insult. It is a statement of fact. If you are told you are one, deny it and prove you aren't.

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

(I don't see that it's derogatory)
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So are you saying crandc, who is clearly stuck in her single position that he viewpoint is absolutely correct and all others are incorrect, is a bigot?
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
So are you saying crandc, who is clearly stuck in her single position that he viewpoint is absolutely correct and all others are incorrect, is a bigot?
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She's not intolerant of any particular groups of people. That's the kicker.

Denying a person is who they know they are is being intolerant. Apply that to all transgendered (or gay, or whatever) people and you have intolerance toward a group.

Strictly by the definition.
 
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