Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

[Denny Crane]

How would you feel if people told you that you're a girl, even though you really claim to be a guy. Show them your dick, they don't care. If you dress like a guy and hateful people throw shit at you when you're walking down the street minding your own business, you're just asking for it.

Don't go looking for some snarky response. I mean this as an exercise for those of you with an iota of intellectual curiosity. Put yourself in their position and maybe you'll gain a little perspective.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Your question isn't so simple. By who's standard? And with what consequences?

You seem to be only approaching this issue from a "fuckability" perspective. Which is, yeah, I get it. That's the modus operandi of most people. But sexual attraction is not at the top of the list of issues with self-identification and self-expression. Someone who feels as if they should be female shouldn't have to take into consideration whether some random bro from LA thinks they will be as hot as someone born female.

It's just a matter of scale. We alter our bodies physically and chemically for all sorts of reasons all the time.

I'm just being biologically accurate. Transgender people are not simply "male" or "female". If they are merely just dressing and acting the part, they are basically playing make believe. If they go ahead with hormone therapy and what not, they are still living a lie of who they truly were born as. Sure, they can say they're who they are and we can all go rah rah rah and woo woo, but we all know its not the truth, its just a feelgood measure.

Self identification and self expression is like getting a tattoo or changing your hairstyle. Transgenderism falls along the same lines as this.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I posed a simple question. The crux of the matter is whether or not a transgender person who claims to be a female is really female. To me, they will always be a transgender and I will personally see them as that no matter what kind of scientific modifications they do to their body. Further seems to think they should be interchangeable, so I asked if he would be comfortable putting his dick where his mouth is. I doubt that most people would see a transgender person who became female and a female on the same playing field.

And there is a big difference between changing the angle of your nose or cutting fat out and actually going in and changing your body chemistry through hormone injections.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Further would be one flexible dude with a large penis if he could achieve this.

 

[crandc]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Further would be one flexible dude with a large penis if he could achieve this.

Took me a second but - hilarious! Repped

And there is a big difference between changing the angle of your nose or cutting fat out and actually going in and changing your body chemistry through hormone injections

I wonder if el presidente ever heard of birth control shots? For that matter, thyroid replacement therapy? Growth hormone (for actual failure to grow, not illlegal PED). Crap, people change their body chemistry with hormone injections all the time.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I'm just being biologically accurate. Transgender people are not simply "male" or "female". If they are merely just dressing and acting the part, they are basically playing make believe. If they go ahead with hormone therapy and what not, they are still living a lie of who they truly were born as. Sure, they can say they're who they are and we can all go rah rah rah and woo woo, but we all know its not the truth, its just a feelgood measure.

Yes, a "feelgood measure" is a good way of putting it. If you feel that you are a woman but you live as a man, and people treat you like a man, and you are in a man's body, then that is living a lie. Continuing to act and look like someone who you feel you are not is living a lie. It causes anxiety and depression. Expressing your self-identify may make you a happier person. It's a feelgood measure.

Self identification and self expression is like getting a tattoo or changing your hairstyle. Transgenderism falls along the same lines as this.

Come on. Gender has WAY more social and psychological weight than tattoos or hairstyle. There is a lot more wrapped up in this than outward appearance.

 

[blazerboy30]

I was listening to the most recent Joe Rogan podcast and his guest was Buck Angel, a former woman who through hormone therapy is now a man, but without a penis. Still has a higher pitched voice than I would expect coming from someone who looks like this, but damn, if that doesn't look like a man. Interesting podcast for sure, they start talking gender issues about 35 minutes into the episode. Oh, and he's a pornstar also, which adds a whole mother level of interesting.

I'm sorry, if you want to call that anything but a man, Dick or not, you're wrong.

BS.

Looks are subjective.

Show me the chromosome map and then tell me if it's a man or a woman. Otherwise, you're wrong.

 

[blazerboy30]

He looks so like a man because he has devoted himself to being male. But you are right, I was a bit hypocritical the way I set it up.
I should have referred to him as a man because he views and presents himself as such, not just because he looks manly. I was wrong.

However, I was mainly bringing it up because it was random hearing this podcast right after our long discussion, and it showed me something I have never been exposed to.

This is ridiculous.

If I "feel like" or "view myself" being a black woman so I can get into certain colleges and other minority groups, is that good enough?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

To me: what an intense and potentially polarizing topic. To be able to discuss this topic on this board in a civil manner it one of the unique aspects of this board.

So crandc, since it was me who mentioned dolls, I feel like I need to address this. You completely missed my point (maybe my fault). I'm not saying playing with dolls makes you transgender . . . I was trying to figure out what feeling one has to say "I feel like a woman" because to me there is no definition of woman or man. If I was really pushed on a definition, I would probably default to the biological definition vs. feeling someone has. Again, I have no problem calling someone whatever they want to be called, but if there are times when the legal distinction comes into play (like say the olympics), I don't think saying you are a woman(even though biologically you are a male) should be enough to compete with woman in the olympics.

But going back to feeling like a woman. I don't even understand feeling like a man (although I like how you automatically asssume macho is a bad thing). You say we all, since time we were born, knew you were a boy or a girl. I don't think that is true. I have no idea what "feel like a man" is suppose to be. If you asked me 30 years ago I would say I feel like a man because I have a penis and I like girls. Well the girl thing doesn't mean anything and I guess these days a penis doesn't mean anything. But I have no idea what "feeling like a man" means and I am a man . . . I think . . . .

 

[oldguy]

Oldguy, if you would call a transperson his or her appropriate gender terminology to his or her face, why not always?

First, within certain limits, I know that I would be willing to call a TG person what they prefer in their presence. After some conversation with them, I may or may not continue to refer to their sex as it relates to their plumbing after they left. How exactly does that harm them (to be called a guy), if they aren't there?

Is that like saying you would not call an African-American the "n word" if he/she was present but would behind his/her back? Wouldn't call a woman a b----- or a gay man a f----- et al if they were present but would if they weren't?

What a load of crap. If a black guy asked that I refer to him as an African-American, I would when he was present. When he was not present, I would call him what I have for years....a black guy. Calling someone a guy is light years away from calling a black man the 'n word'. I haven't and wouldn't refer to them as trannies or shemales or other slurs.

If a gay person wanted to be called a unicorn, I would call them that in their presence. When they weren't around I would call them gay people.

If a women wanted to be called lady, I would call them that when they were around. The rest of the time, with the exception of a choice few, I would call them women, girls or gals.

Why not use appropriate terms at all times? It's not difficult.

And aren't we lucky to have you here to tell us what is appropriate?

Since people are so obsesses with sex with transpeople, I had a brief relationship with a transwoman - and I did not even know she was trans for some time. She was just tall. Otherwise no different from any other woman. If you didn't know, you wouldn't know.

Ah, my wild youth.

Well, I'm far from obsessed with sex with TG people, so you can rattle someone else's cage on that subject.

Go Blazers

 

[crandc]

Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman.

And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions. But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople.

The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with. But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man.

And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect? Including using proper gender terminology?

I remember reading Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. In this future society language has been modified so there are no gender pronouns. They'd say "person is having lunch", for example. "Per" for short. That would make this discussion obsolete, but for now, we still use pronouns.

 

[MarAzul]

Is Further trying to tell us something?

I think he has been gathering himself to try and speak for some time now.

 

[MarAzul]

Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman.

And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions. But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople.

The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with. But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man.

And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect? Including using proper gender terminology?

I remember reading Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. In this future society language has been modified so there are no gender pronouns. They'd say "person is having lunch", for example. "Per" for short. That would make this discussion obsolete, but for now, we still use pronouns.

Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman.

And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions. But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople.

The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with. But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man.

And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect? Including using proper gender terminology?

I remember reading Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. In this future society language has been modified so there are no gender pronouns. They'd say "person is having lunch", for example. "Per" for short. That would make this discussion obsolete, but for now, we still use pronouns.

Thanks for that answer, appreciate it.

Cranc, you have such an easy time understanding this stuff that maybe it doesn't seem real when others have a hard time understanding it. It's not that I don't want to . . . it is that I'm having a hard time understanding it. Actual gender? It's just hard for me to accept that without questioning the whole idea.

But I do agree there is no reason to be mean to transgender people. And I would probably call anybody anything, if that's what they want.

 

[Further]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Further would be one flexible dude with a large penis if he could achieve this.

Names further for a reason

 

[blazerboy30]

Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman.

In your opinion.

Science says otherwise.

And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions.

Of course they do. You just want to ignore that fact.

But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople.

Knowing is different than feeling. You're claiming they feel a certain gender. That is different than actually being a different gender.

The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with.

Their actual gender does match their genetics.

But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man.

Again...in your opinion. Which, again, disagrees with science.

And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect?

I think we can all agree with this part. But you're building a strawman since nobody here is advocating harming them.

Including using proper gender terminology?

We feel that we are using proper gender terminology. You're the one wanting to change scientific definitions.

 

[Further]

Thanks for that answer, appreciate it.

Cranc, you have such an easy time understanding this stuff that maybe it doesn't seem real when others have a hard time understanding it. It's not that I don't want to . . . it is that I'm having a hard time understanding it. Actual gender? It's just hard for me to accept that without questioning the whole idea.

But I do agree there is no reason to be mean to transgender people. And I would probably call anybody anything, if that's what they want.

I actually completely get your view, and I think that's all that anyone SHOULD ask, it to try and understand, and be nice. That's it. It might not make sense to you, it doesn't make total sense to me. I have not grown up in that body with those thoughts and so can't really understand what they are thinking. But I can understand that they get seriously ridiculed in society, often physically accosted, and all the time they aren't doing anything to anybody else that is rude, mean, hurtful....

So I guess, why not extend a hand and just be accepting. Why hold onto our past notions of gender being just about what's between the legs. If I can't understand putting myself in their position, but they do it with full knowledge that much of the world looks down on them, then damn, that must be pretty serious to them. So fine, you want to be called He, or She, or Cassidy or Buck or whatever, I'll do that. I'll also keep trying to understand. I'll also ask others to be understanding. That's it. You don't need to be attracted to them, I wouldn't bang Rosanne Barr just because she's a woman. Bang people you find attractive and who want to bang you.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

lol

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

In your opinion.

Science says otherwise.




Of course they do. You just want to ignore that fact.



Knowing is different than feeling. You're claiming they feel a certain gender. That is different than actually being a different gender.



Their actual gender does match their genetics.


Again...in your opinion. Which, again, disagrees with science.



I think we can all agree with this part. But you're building a strawman since nobody here is advocating harming them.



We feel that we are using proper gender terminology. You're the one wanting to change scientific definitions.

The modern argument distinguishes between gender and sex. Gender (man vs woman) is a social construct. What it means to be either is dependent on the culture one was born into. Sex (male vs female vs intersex) is biological. So, yes, someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex.

 

[MarAzul]

yes, someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex.

This forum is really funny. You must be here for a few week to realize someone would indeed make the above post.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

The modern argument distinguishes between gender and sex. Gender (man vs woman) is a social construct. What it means to be either is dependent on the culture one was born into. Sex (male vs female vs intersex) is biological. So, yes, someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex.

That's all fine and dandy, and I understand the point and agree to an extent. But there are a lot of people that simply live by the biological sex concept, and I don't think they're wrong, either. And that's where, to me, there's a disconnect in this discussion. Many people choose to view through the biological definition and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we all respect one another.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

This forum is really funny. You must be here for a few week to realize someone would indeed make the above post.

Reality is a funny place. Come on in and enjoy the fun.

 

[blazerboy30]

The modern argument distinguishes between gender and sex. Gender (man vs woman) is a social construct. What it means to be either is dependent on the culture one was born into. Sex (male vs female vs intersex) is biological. So, yes, someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex.

I giggled.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

That's all fine and dandy, and I understand the point and agree to an extent. But there are a lot of people that simply live by the biological sex concept, and I don't think they're wrong, either. And that's where, to me, there's a disconnect in this discussion. Many people choose to view through the biological definition and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as we all respect one another.

Sure, you can predict someone's gender based on their biological sex, just as you can predict any social behavior based on a biological feature. That doesn't mean you're going to correct in your assumption 100% of the time. Like you said, the trick is respect.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I giggled.

That's fine. You don't have to acknowledge the validity of modern viewpoints. I was just pointing them out to you.

 

[blazerboy30]

That's fine. You don't have to acknowledge the validity of modern viewpoints. I was just pointing them out to you.

What's funny is watching the viewpoints coming from somebody in grad school, with no basis in reality or usefulness, and then comparing them to the real world.

Please go ask a decent sample size of these people and see how many of them agree to "being a man, but still a female". Then get back to me with your "valid modern viewpoints", aka academia thought study.

 

[Denny Crane]

Treaty of Batum, it's because being a transwoman is not "feeling like a woman". A transwoman IS a woman.

And you are right, "man" and "woman" do not have precise definitions. But most people do know if they are a man or a woman. Including transpeople.

The only difference between transpeople and cis-gendered people is that for transpeople, their actual gender does not match the body parts they were born with. But a transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man.

And of course it could be pointed out they harm no one (quite the reverse; transpeople are often targets of verbal, physical and sexual assault) so can't you just leave them be? Treat with basic courtesy and respect? Including using proper gender terminology?

I remember reading Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. In this future society language has been modified so there are no gender pronouns. They'd say "person is having lunch", for example. "Per" for short. That would make this discussion obsolete, but for now, we still use pronouns.

Bingo.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

What's funny is watching the viewpoints coming from somebody in grad school, with no basis in reality or usefulness, and then comparing them to the real world.

Please go ask a decent sample size of these people and see how many of them agree to "being a man, but still a female". Then get back to me with your "valid modern viewpoints", aka academia thought study.

In other words: "I don't understand the issue so I'm going to dismiss the informed discussion (fancy book learnin') of it."

And the fact that you view the attempt to understand the issue on a level deeper than your own gut feelings as having "no basis in reality or usefulness" is telling.

 

[blazerboy30]

In other words: "I don't understand the issue so I'm going to dismiss the informed discussion (fancy book learnin') of it."

It's cute and comical when you try to go with the "I'm more intellectual shtick" with me.

I've been through the grad school / academia ordeal. It was fun and interesting. I now deal with lots of you coming in for interviews, thinking you know how things work. The reoccurring theme is that, while it's nice to think of hypothetical and philosophical angles to real world issues, the reality is that it's a useless waste of time when it isn't based in what actually happens in the real world. Sorry.

And the fact that you view the attempt to understand the issue on a level deeper than your own gut feelings as having "no basis in reality or usefulness" is telling.

It's "telling" in that I'm correct and living in the real world. There are no gut feelings involved here, just science / genetics.

Again, find me a significant number of people that call themselves "a man but a female".

You threw out the "someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex" argument, so the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, like I said, it's a useless thought study.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

It's cute and comical when you try to go with the "I'm more intellectual shtick" with me.

I've been through the grad school / academia ordeal. It was fun and interesting. I now deal with lots of you coming in for interviews, thinking you know how things work. The reoccurring theme is that, while it's nice to think of hypothetical and philosophical angles to real world issues, the reality is that it's a useless waste of time when it isn't based in what actually happens in the real world. Sorry.

Since you appear to be the arbiter of reality, what would you define as the real world? Are all social sciences useless wastes of time, or just the ones that attempt to understand transgendered people?

It's "telling" in that I'm correct and living in the real world. There are no gut feelings involved here, just science / genetics.

Again, find me a significant number of people that call themselves "a man but a female".

You threw out the "someone's gender can be incongruent with their biological sex" argument, so the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, like I said, it's a useless thought study.

Wow. Are you really unaware that there is a whole community of transgendered people? Or is their self-identification merely hypothetical academic mumbo jumbo?

 

[maxiep]

In my opinion, sex is a matter of biology, not psychology. It doesn't really matter to me what you feel like what you are, rather what your chromosomes say you are. You might be both, but you can't be one and say you're another.