Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel (2 Viewers)

[TradeNurkicNow]

When is someone going to answer Brian's legit question?

I'll take a stab at it.

Please don't think this is insensitive, these are legit questions I have (and like oldguy said, I didn't even know some of the topics in this thread were actual topics, so kudos), and I'll use a real-life public figure as an example...

Chelsea Manning (I'm pretty sure) has the body that is physically male, XY chromosomes, etc. She has now asked to be identified as a woman, changed her name, and desires treatments/surgeries/whatever to make that happen. Fair enough.

Pre-name change, Private Bradley Manning (I assume) had the same desires/thoughts/feelings/"gender leanings" that Chelsea does now. Would it have been legal and/or appropriate for Private Bradley Manning to have been using the women's bathroom, showering with women, living in the women's barracks because he identified as a woman gender-ally, vice being male physically? Or was it an infringement on his rights to make him do the same with the physically male?

I ask because there doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile it--either it's an infringement on the rights of the trans-person to be forced to utilize the facilities that they physically identify with, rather than how they identify gender-ally; or you do away with physical male/physical female segregation and segregate by gender identification (sexual identification?), which seems to be a "separate but equal" issue waiting to come up.

Put another way, I personally would feel as uncomfortable with a physical female (who identified with male) taking a shower next to be in the gym, on the submarine, etc. Chelsea Manning (even knowing her sexuality, how she identifies, etc) taking a shower next to me would not be an issue. Would you say that's just bigotry on my part? Is that something that society should be cleansed of? And (not legally, but societally) are we all comfortable with physical males able to walk into women's showers without question, and assume that they are there with good intentions because they identify with being a female, vice being a predator? Again, just mho, but I tend to error on the side of protecting women, because I don't believe in the inherent goodness of individuals.

You bring up one of the most salient issues in this whole debate. The right to use public restrooms is a pretty hot button issue, and there is no easy answer. There has been much written on the topic. One of the biggest issues (for the trans community, at least) is that transgendered people are likely to experience harassment or assault for using public restrooms. There was the well known case of the transwoman being beaten into a seizure in a Maryland McDonalds while the employees filmed it and laughed. To the TS community, this is very much a civil rights issue.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

She's addressed your question more than once.

You can be straight/transgendered or gay/transgendered. In other words, gender is not tied to sexual preference.

I really do think you're close to "getting it." You say "gay people always knew they were gay" and you can accept that. Transgendered people "always knew they were gender opposite their genitals." It's no leap; it's obvious.

When I google "definition of biological sex" and I see most medical answers that are predicated around sexual reproductive organs, it's very clear to me that I'm more than "close to getting it".

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Denny, you've been trying to tell me all along that I'm off. But I've been very clear and consistent in arguing my point from the "biological sex" perspective. I think that's pretty clearly defined by the medical field. I understand there's the "psychological sex" or "gender". My posts have been very clear that I'm okay with this and understand it. I live more on the perspective of "biological sex" - my general viewpoint in life stems from that side. It appears yours is more on the psychological side. That's cool. I respect your perspective, you should learn to accept mine and that neither is more correct than the other; they're generally different. One is more based on obvious, physical characteristics; the other is based in a different dimension than I typically am on, but understanding it is a more compassionate, humanity-level being.

 

[Denny Crane]

My viewpoint is that I trust the other person to determine their own gender. I don't need to look up their skirt to make some sort of judgment that I either keep to myself or make public (to the person).

Like I said twice now, you're really close to getting it.

There's a reason why LGBT includes "T".

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

My viewpoint is that I trust the other person to determine their own gender. I don't need to look up their skirt to make some sort of judgment that I either keep to myself or make public (to the person).

Like I said twice now, you're really close to getting it.

There's a reason why LGBT includes "T".

As I've tried to state several times (but I don't know that you're getting close to understanding it), I'm talking biological sex, you're talking gender/psychological sex. Two different subject matters that are closely related. I generally, but not always, live from the perspective of biological sex. You live from the perspective of gender/psychological sex.

It baffling to me why you don't understand my POV. Both POV's are correct.

 

[oldguy]

She's addressed your question more than once.

You can be straight/transgendered or gay/transgendered. In other words, gender is not tied to sexual preference.

I really do think you're close to "getting it." You say "gay people always knew they were gay" and you can accept that. Transgendered people "always knew they were gender opposite their genitals." It's no leap; it's obvious.

I don't buy that as an absolute. Especially for young children. Are you making a case that once a TG child self-identifies, they never decide that they were wrong as they get farther into life?

Last summer, I was listening to a radio program, (can't recall which), but iirc the City of Portland was either considering a law for TG people, or they had passed a law for TG people. Part of the discussion that made me chuckle, (because I could see some of my buddies taking advantage when we were kids), was that TG people could use the facilities that they identified with....at that moment in time. In other words, they could use the girls' room/shower one week, and the next week they could use the boys' room/shower. Maybe I have that wrong, but if I don't, then the city of Portland doesn't agree that TG peoples' gender isn't always fixed for life.

So, if a kindergartner decides they are a girl at 5 years of age, should school officials expect/require that they stick to that gender for the rest of their time in school?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't buy that as an absolute. Especially for young children. Are you making a case that once a TG child self-identifies, they never decide that they were wrong as they get farther into life?

Last summer, I was listening to a radio program, (can't recall which), but iirc the City of Portland was either considering a law for TG people, or they had passed a law for TG people. Part of the discussion that made me chuckle, (because I could see some of my buddies taking advantage when we were kids), was that TG people could use the facilities that they identified with....at that moment in time. In other words, they could use the girls' room/shower one week, and the next week they could use the boys' room/shower. Maybe I have that wrong, but if I don't, then the city of Portland doesn't agree that TG peoples' gender isn't always fixed for life.

So, if a kindergartner decides they are a girl at 5 years of age, should school officials expect/require that they stick to that gender for the rest of their time in school?

Go Blazers

Are you going to decide you're gay all of a sudden?

It's the same sort of thing :0

 

[MarAzul]

My viewpoint is that I trust the other person to determine their own gender. I don't need to look up their skirt to make some sort of judgment that I either keep to myself or make public (to the person).

Like I said twice now, you're really close to getting it.

There's a reason why LGBT includes "T".

It is pretty clear. The purpose of the LGBT community is to change the definitions of the words people use.

Gay in the old day meant;
. Bright and pleasant; promoting a feeling of cheer "a gay sunny room"
. Full of or showing high-spirited merriment

Now it means homosexual

Married once meant.
A man and woman joined together in the eyes of God.
Now it means? Not sure this has shaken out yet


Gender once meant, "The properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles".

Now apparently the LGBT want it to mean nothing but an open reference to a persons sex depending on how they feel today.


There is a common thread in this, it is about Feeling and not much else.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nah, MarAzul. It's about overcoming a long time of repressing and oppressing people who are different.

 

[MarAzul]

Nah, MarAzul. It's about overcoming a long time of repressing and oppressing people who are different.

Nah, you don't need to change the meaning of words to do that. But I expect it give them some level of satifaction.
I guess I don't mind that they changed the definition of the word gay or gender for that matter. What ever?!?!

But I did ask the Big LGBT not to change the meaning of "Married" that has spiritual meaning to way more people than the LGBT people can count.
Besides they do not share the spiritual meaning to married so they don't need that word to cover there legal need in the sense of what is Caesar's.
However, I see this logic is rejected and I sense that it not for logical reason but more because it "feels good".
Hell, just making the request, jolted one loud mouth in to immediate action, she came with homophobic rhetoric immediately. It is the same as trying to
have a logical discussion with a progressive (which they all are), you can't, you must know before hand that it can't happen, they don't think that way.
The thumb in the eye is the goal, not a meeting of minds.

 

[Denny Crane]

The meaning of words do change over time. Tough for you if you don't like it. The world will just pass you by.

The word awful used to mean "inspire awe." Over time, it's come to mean "terrible." It is what it is. The dictionary wouldn't be much use if it didn't tell us today "terrible" is what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

 

[MarAzul]

The meaning of words do change over time. Tough for you if you don't like it. The world will just pass you by.

The word awful used to mean "inspire awe." Over time, it's come to mean "terrible." It is what it is. The dictionary wouldn't be much use if it didn't tell us today "terrible" is what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

Gee that is awful the way you skated out, Weasel comes to mind.

 

[oldguy]

Are you going to decide you're gay all of a sudden?

It's the same sort of thing :0

I'm not five years old.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Are you going to decide you're gay all of a sudden?

It's the same sort of thing :0[/QUOTE

Would you support telling the TG community that once a little kid self identifies their gender, they can't change for life?

Just another way to ask if you know for a fact that TG people never change their minds. And, if you believe that, could you provide a basis for that belief? For instance, is there is a reliable scientific study that shows that TG people always remain the same gender they select the first time they become aware that they are different from others of the same sex?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not five years old.

Go Blazers

You're the one talking about people changing their mind. They're not going to change their mind any more than you are going to magically turn gay.

 

[oldguy]

You're the one talking about people changing their mind. They're not going to change their mind any more than you are going to magically turn gay.

And......what do you base that opinion on?

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

You're the one talking about people changing their mind. They're not going to change their mind any more than you are going to magically turn gay.

ABC News producer who became a transgender ‘woman’ decides he is a man again.

In May, ABC News producer and editor Don Ennis said that he was really "Dawn Stacey Ennis," a woman trapped inside his male body. Three months later, he has decided he is Don again and wants his buddies in the newsroom to forget his coming to work in heels.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ab...-transgender-woman-decides-he-is-a-man-again/

So, I'd like to run my hypothetical questions by you and crandc again:

If Dawn Ennis came to my house and I referred to Ms. Ennis as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Ennis as 'he' after he left.

Let's say that, once gone, I did refer to Dawn as a he.

Three months later, Don Ennis comes to my house. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Don 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect.

Since I had called Ennis 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Dawn/Don a 'he' all along?

If I was right all along about him being a man, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a man the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior?

Go Blazers

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

And......what do you base that opinion on?

Go Blazers

Denny ignores posts when they're inconvenient.

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny ignores posts when they're inconvenient.

Bullshit.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/an-open-letter-to-don-ennis/

It's clearly a lot of time, work, and expense to make the switch. At this point in life, he didn't want to stick with it. Contrary to his spin are his actions. Think about those.

And he's blaming it on a trauma to his brain, like a stroke or epilepsy or a blow to the head.

The lesson in this story is about how supportive the people around him were when he made his decision to change. They didn't call him a he when she was undergoing the transformation.

 

[oldguy]

Bullshit.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/an-open-letter-to-don-ennis/

It's clearly a lot of time, work, and expense to make the switch. At this point in life, he didn't want to stick with it. Contrary to his spin are his actions. Think about those.

And he's blaming it on a trauma to his brain, like a stroke or epilepsy or a blow to the head.

The lesson in this story is about how supportive the people around him were when he made his decision to change. They didn't call him a he when she was undergoing the transformation.

So, what you are saying is (while not answering my question), if that YES, TG people DO sometimes change their minds, right?

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

From a site that helps TG people and parents understand the issues:

A young child who feels cross-gendered may change their mind. The most common time for this to occur is about 9-10 years old. There is insufficient research to know if these children later identify as gender nonconforming or transgender adults. So, it is unclear if this change indicates sublimation or if it was just childhood phase.

https://www.genderspectrum.org/about/faq

Ok, since you didn't seem to like my last situation, I'd like to run a new hypothetical question by you and crandc:

If six year old Roberta Lopez came to my house (dressed as a girl) and I referred to the young Miss Lopez as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Roberta as 'he' after he left.

Let's say that, since departing me house, I did refer to Roberta as a he.

Three years later, Roberto (formerly Roberta) Lopez comes to my house dressed like a boy. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Roberto 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect.

Since I had called Lopez 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Roberta/Roberto a 'he' all along?

If I was right all along about him being a boy, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a boy the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

So, what you are saying is (while not answering my question), if that YES, TG people DO sometimes change their minds, right?

Go Blazers

About being transgendered? I don't think so. About how they present? Yes, and I've said so many times. The person is what it looks like. Remember me saying that?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

About being transgendered? I don't think so. About how they present? Yes, and I've said so many times. The person is what it looks like. Remember me saying that?

Your posts are getting dumber and dumber. Yesterday, it was about what toys they play with. Now, it's about what they look like? Make up your mind.

 

[Denny Crane]

Your posts are getting dumber and dumber. Yesterday, it was about what toys they play with. Now, it's about what they look like? Make up your mind.

Thanks for the marvelous insight.

 

[Denny Crane]

From a site that helps TG people and parents understand the issues:



https://www.genderspectrum.org/about/faq

Ok, since you didn't seem to like my last situation, I'd like to run a new hypothetical question by you and crandc:

If six year old Roberta Lopez came to my house (dressed as a girl) and I referred to the young Miss Lopez as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Roberta as 'he' after he left.

Let's say that, since departing me house, I did refer to Roberta as a he.

Three years later, Roberto (formerly Roberta) Lopez comes to my house dressed like a boy. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Roberto 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect.

Since I had called Lopez 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Roberta/Roberto a 'he' all along?

If I was right all along about him being a boy, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a boy the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior?

Go Blazers

How about the hypothetical that's almost always the case. The person presents as a woman (or man) and never changes. Why be an asshole about it when most likely you are wrong?

 

[oldguy]

How about the hypothetical that's almost always the case. The person presents as a woman (or man) and never changes. Why be an asshole about it when most likely you are wrong?

LOL! You sure can get pissy when what you write is shown to be just so much pompous, PC bullshit.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

How about the hypothetical that's almost always the case. The person presents as a woman (or man) and never changes. Why be an asshole about it when most likely you are wrong?

You weren't saying ALMOST in the rest of this thread. You were talking in absolutes, and that's what we disagreed on. Then, once it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that sometimes TG's, especially children DO CHANGE THEIR MINDS, you change your whole story, and try to make it out to be me that was typing pompous crap.

Would you now say that it's almost impossible that I could become gay at this point in my life?

In what way would I have been an asshole in any of the scenarios I've presented? Or, is me being an asshole only because you've been called for making shit up?

Further, you used the PC crap you wrote to call others out as being bigoted and mean spirited when they weren't.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

MTV “True Life” runs a segment on transgender teens- one male, one female, now forced to undo the damage as they grow up and change their mind about believing they should medically alter their bodies into looking like the opposite sex. “I’m questioning my gender again”- Full episode here:

http://www.mtv.com/videos/true-life-im-questioning-my-gender-again/1704884/playlist.jhtml

The incredible sexism of their home environments (“Boys who play with Barbie must be girls”) is astounding and illuminates some of the cultural forces driving the “transgender children” trend. Both of these former trans teens were fully supported into transitioning by their families, and both families cautioned the (now young adult) transgenders against switching back.

“This is what I was afraid of. They don’t get it. They feel like I’m not being true to myself. I don’t know… I just feel like they think that I’m making a mistake.”- Jait Jr on his family’s lack of support for his de-transition.

“Right now I just want to shave off all my hair and be a man so that’s what I’m going to do”- Jait Jr, formerly “Daniella”.

“Detransitioning is what is going to make me happy”- Jait Jr.

http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/...ansgender-teens-change-their-minds-as-adults/

So, since you REALLY don't want to respond to my scenarios, I'd like to run my recycled hypothetical questions by you and crandc again:

If Daniella 'Doe' came to my house and I referred to Ms. Doe as 'her', I would have been polite and 'appropriate', and I think we all agree on that. What we disagree about is whether it is appropriate for me to refer to Doe as 'he' after he left.

Let's say that, once gone, I did refer to Daniella as a he.

Three months later, Jait Jr. Doe comes to my house. I'm assuming that I should now be calling Jait 'he', right? I'm still not wanting to hurt feelings or show disrespect.

Since I had called Doe 'he' ever since leaving the first time, does that mean I was right to have called Daniella/Jait a 'he' all along?

If I was right all along about him being a man, wouldn't that mean that saying he was a man the whole time is not bigoted, nor mean-spirited? Might it also mean that how to refer to TG people is not absolute, because there probably are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

You weren't saying ALMOST in the rest of this thread. You were talking in absolutes, and that's what we disagreed on. Then, once it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that sometimes TG's, especially children DO CHANGE THEIR MINDS, you change your whole story, and try to make it out to be me that was typing pompous crap.

Would you now say that it's almost impossible that I could become gay at this point in my life?

In what way would I have been an asshole in any of the scenarios I've presented? Or, is me being an asshole only because you've been called for making shit up?

Further, you used the PC crap you wrote to call others out as being bigoted and mean spirited when they weren't.

Go Blazers

The person is still transgendered. If you can't accept it, and disrespect the person, then that us bigoted.

And what is wrong with being "correct?"

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

oldguy, why are you positing these scenarios? I lost track