Tech Global warming: greatest sham in science

[Lanny]

It was a long-standing dispute between SPD and Denny. SPD would comment on health of fisheries and aquatic life. At some point SPD said the oceans are dead. Denny decided they weren’t dead and then decided to bring it up in every thread he could find. Now you are caught up.

So, it's all a pissing contest.

 

[barfo]

If the market was fair and lobbyists didnt write the laws, it wouldn't matter what Trump thought. Any competition to petroleum is snuffed out by obscure laws and regulations and it's been that way long before Trump. Regulations dont hurt oil companies when they are only game in town.

There is some truth to that - the petro lobby is very powerful, and has managed to tilt the playing field towards themselves.

However... it isn't all-powerful. See, for example, the increased number of hybrid and all-electric cars on the road. Most of us don't heat our homes or offices with oil anymore.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

However... it isn't all-powerful. See, for example, the increased number of hybrid and all-electric cars on the road. Most of us don't heat our homes or offices with oil anymore.

barfo

Two different forces at work with these two examples. The hybrid car will never save enough fuel to pay the additional up front expense. I don't even know if it will replace the battery. My daughter has one though, pleased as can be with it.

Natural Gas is so much cleaner and less expensive than oil. Oregon was way late in making it available and even then it is only in the Willamette valley.

We payed through the nose to get a pipeline into Coos County about twenty years ago. No one can use it, we do not have one industry using it even though that was the prime reason for the laying the pipeline. Jobs. The Governor opposes the only proposal on the table to get a user in the county.

 

[barfo]

The hybrid car will never save enough fuel to pay the additional up front expense.

It depends on how much you drive, and how. Numbers I've seen are payback periods around 6 years for average drivers.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

It depends on how much you drive, and how. Numbers I've seen are payback periods around 6 years for average drivers.

barfo

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly-are-electric-cars/a-19441437

 

[andalusian]

Two different forces at work with these two examples. The hybrid car will never save enough fuel to pay the additional up front expense. I don't even know if it will replace the battery. My daughter has one though, pleased as can be with it.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/hybrid-electric-cars-hype-justify-price

"For example, compare a hybrid that sells for $30,000 and gets 48 mpg with an identical gas-powered car that sells for $27,500 and gets 28 mpg.

If you drive 1,250 miles each month and pay for gas at $3 a gallon, the hybrid would save you $56 a month, and it would take you 45 months to pay back the premium, according to Edmunds. However, if gas jumped up to $4 a gallon, the hybrid would save you $74 a month, and it would take you only 34 months to pay off the premium. In this sense, owning a hybrid can provide some peace of mind because it’s insurance against future gas price hikes."

I just checked if the difference in price is reasonable - and it seems to be more or less so - A 2019 Camry LE MSRP is $24,350, a 2019 Camry Hybrid LE MSRP is $28,150 - that's $3800. The price difference of a RAV4 to RAV4 hybrid is just $3000 - so it kind of seems reasonable.

With this in mind, I would guess that a 5 - 6 years period will have the hybrid cover the cost difference for the average driver (people under 55, after that, the average yearly mileage goes down from 15K to 12K).

 

[MarAzul]

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/hybrid-electric-cars-hype-justify-price

"For example, compare a hybrid that sells for $30,000 and gets 48 mpg with an identical gas-powered car that sells for $27,500 and gets 28 mpg.

If you drive 1,250 miles each month and pay for gas at $3 a gallon, the hybrid would save you $56 a month, and it would take you 45 months to pay back the premium, according to Edmunds. However, if gas jumped up to $4 a gallon, the hybrid would save you $74 a month, and it would take you only 34 months to pay off the premium. In this sense, owning a hybrid can provide some peace of mind because it’s insurance against future gas price hikes."

I just checked if the difference in price is reasonable - and it seems to be more or less so - A 2019 Camry LE MSRP is $24,350, a 2019 Camry Hybrid LE MSRP is $28,150 - that's $3800. The price difference of a RAV4 to RAV4 hybrid is just $3000 - so it kind of seems reasonable.

With this in mind, I would guess that a 5 - 6 years period will have the hybrid cover the cost difference for the average driver (people under 55, after that, the average yearly mileage goes down from 15K to 12K).

The difference between my wife's Toyota Yaris and my Daughters Toyota Prius is more than $11,000 and 17MPG
It would take my wife nearly 40 years to save the difference in price in gas savings. Then that isn't going to happen as the battery will not make it anywhere near that long. I guess it takes 8000 to replace it but I don't know how long it will last. They don't know.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The difference between my wife's Toyota Yaris and my Daughters Toyota Prius is more than $11,000 and 17MPG
It would take my wife nearly 40 years to save the difference in price in gas savings. Then that isn't going to happen as the battery will not make it anywhere near that long. I guess it takes 8000 to replace it but I don't know how long it will last. They don't know.

LOL! You're comparing a Yaris to a Prius? Not really the most accurate comparison.

I mean if that's how you're going to look it you should have just gotten your wife a used Geo Metro. Those suckers get 50mpg. And it's used so you don't have much depreciation.

 

[barfo]

The difference between my wife's Toyota Yaris and my Daughters Toyota Prius is more than $11,000 and 17MPG
It would take my wife nearly 40 years to save the difference in price in gas savings. Then that isn't going to happen as the battery will not make it anywhere near that long. I guess it takes 8000 to replace it but I don't know how long it will last. They don't know.

Prius batteries are about $2k. Or you can get a refurbished one for under $1k.

barfo

 

[andalusian]

The difference between my wife's Toyota Yaris and my Daughters Toyota Prius is more than $11,000 and 17MPG
It would take my wife nearly 40 years to save the difference in price in gas savings. Then that isn't going to happen as the battery will not make it anywhere near that long. I guess it takes 8000 to replace it but I don't know how long it will last. They don't know.

The Yaris and Prius are different size and class vehicles. (The Yaris cargo interior volume is 15.6 cu-ft, the Prius is at 27.4 for example)

The comparison does not make sense. That's why I gave you the price difference of the exact same car with the exact same trim.

 

[jonnyboy]

Also keep in mind the fact that electricity is a secondary form of energy in most cases. Most of it is created by burning coal and/or natural gas. A coal or natural gas run vehicle would literally be more efficient than one that runs on electricity generated from coal or natural gas. Less energy lost converting it into another form. Electric cars seem awesome for the people in the cities who keep the plants that power their cars out of sight and out of mind.

 

[barfo]

Also keep in mind the fact that electricity is a secondary form of energy in most cases. Most of it is created by burning coal and/or natural gas. A coal or natural gas run vehicle would literally be more efficient than one that runs on electricity generated from coal or natural gas. Less energy lost converting it into another form. Electric cars seem awesome for the people in the cities who keep the plants that power their cars out of sight and out of mind.

Not sure about the idea of a coal-fired car being more efficient than using electricity from a coal-fired plant. Yes you lose something in the conversion to electricity, but a tiny coal engine is not going to be as efficient as a coal power plant.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

LOL! You're comparing a Yaris to a Prius? Not really the most accurate comparison.

I mean if that's how you're going to look it you should have just gotten your wife a used Geo Metro. Those suckers get 50mpg. And it's used so you don't have much depreciation.

She wore her Geo out. About 220K I think. Damn good little machine. IT does
do about 52 on the mpg.

You don't think the Yaris compared to the Prius is valid? Given she wants a Toyota and the best mpg she can get, what would you compare?

 

[MarAzul]

The Yaris and Prius are different size and class vehicles. (The Yaris cargo interior volume is 15.6 cu-ft, the Prius is at 27.4 for example)

The comparison does not make sense. That's why I gave you the price difference of the exact same car with the exact same trim.

She doesn't give a shit about the increased room, She would take a hybrid Yaris if they made one.
The reason they don't is because they can't. So the comparison is exactly right. The bigger car is part of the cost, need the bigger machine to haul the fucking battery.

 

[andalusian]

You don't think the Yaris compared to the Prius is valid? Give she wants a Toyota and the best mpg she can get, what would you compare?

The bigger car is part of the cost, need the bigger machine to haul the fucking battery.

This is just plain wrong.

Even within the Toyota family - you have the Prius C (the sub-compact) which is the same size (sub-compact) as the Yaris. The Prius is a larger car in a different class. The difference in price between the Prius C and Yaris is $4.5K not $11K

http://bestride.com/news/hybrid-or-gas-toyota-prius-c-vs-yaris

One could guess that the Yaris and Prius C share the same bones under it - but I am not certain as some of the interior dimensions are a little different, if this is because of the battery location or other consideration I am not sure - that's why I used cars that have the exact same name and structure.

 

[barfo]

She doesn't give a shit about the increased room, She would take a hybrid Yaris if they made one.
The reason they don't is because they can't. So the comparison is exactly right. The bigger car is part of the cost, need the bigger machine to haul the fucking battery.

That isn't factual. 93 lbs doesn't require a much bigger car.

And, they do make a hybrid Yaris, it's sold in Europe.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

This is just plain wrong.

Even within the Toyota family - you have the Prius C (the sub-compact) which is the same size (sub-compact) as the Yaris. The Prius is a larger car in a different class. The difference in price between the Prius C and Yaris is $4.5K not $11K

http://bestride.com/news/hybrid-or-gas-toyota-prius-c-vs-yaris

One could guess that the Yaris and Prius C share the same bones under it - but I am not certain as some of the interior dimensions are a little different, if this is because of the battery location or other consideration I am not sure - that's why I used cars that have the exact same name and structure.

AH! That's good. I did not know about those little buggers.
It will only take 19 years to make up the difference. I suppose that will take two more batteries. Not sure what that would be cost wise.

 

[riverman]

She wore her Geo out. About 220K I think. Damn good little machine. IT does
do about 52 on the mpg.

You don't think the Yaris compared to the Prius is valid? Given she wants a Toyota and the best mpg she can get, what would you compare?

no comparison with a more expensive Prius than either the Yaris or the low end Prius...this is what we chose...about 24k new back in 2013....no complaints..leg room...I've gotten 69 mpg from Eugene to Corvalis taking 99 many times...drove it from Western Lane County to Portland and back once for 8 bucks worth of petrol taking I-5..the 14k Prius C is not nearly the car ...

 

[andalusian]

AH! That's good. I did not know about those little buggers.
It will only take 19 years to make up the difference. I suppose that will take two more batteries. Not sure what that would be cost wise.

Actually, if we compare like to like (automatic to automatic) the difference in price is $3,800 (the bigger difference is when comparing to the manual)

https://www.thecarconnection.com/ca...-vs-toyota_yaris_2018?trims=40059799,40060376

The Yaris has a combined MPG of 35, the Prius C has a combined MPG of 48. At $4 / gallon (what we are paying here now, you might be paying less in Oregon) you are looking at 7 years to pay the difference.

But, the sub-compacts are an extreme example where the regular ICE car is already very efficient. If you move a size up to a corolla vs. Prius - you are looking at around 6 years to pay the difference. You go up to a small CUV - a Kia Nero vs a Kia Sportage for example, and within 4.5 years you cover the difference.

 

[MarAzul]

That isn't factual. 93 lbs doesn't require a much bigger car.

And, they do make a hybrid Yaris, it's sold in Europe.

barfo

Perhaps I am just a skeptic, but I just don't believe 93 pound battery runs that car far.
I have 1000 pound of batteries in the boat to run a few electronics a day.

 

[MarAzul]

Actually, if we compare like to like (automatic to automatic) the difference in price is $3,800 (the bigger difference is when comparing to the manual)

https://www.thecarconnection.com/ca...-vs-toyota_yaris_2018?trims=40059799,40060376

The Yaris has a combined MPG of 35, the Prius C has a combined MPG of 48. At $4 / gallon (what we are paying here now, you might be paying less in Oregon) you are looking at 7 years to pay the difference.

But, the sub-compacts are an extreme example where the regular ICE car is already very efficient. If you move a size up to a corolla vs. Prius - you are looking at around 6 years to pay the difference. You go up to a small CUV - a Kia Nero vs a Kia Sportage for example, and within 4.5 years you cover the difference.

She just doesn't need a bigger rig than her 4 door Yaris. I had it out last week, and filled it @ $2.79 a gallon.
But I do think I will look into one. I like to plug in and charge rather than buy gas, so if that is now possilbe then as
@riverman points out. 69 mpg will make a big friggin difference even part of the time.

 

[andalusian]

She just doesn't need a bigger rig than her 4 door Yaris. I had it out last week, and filled it @ $2.79 a gallon

If the math does not work, I do not think it makes sense to change unless it makes her happy.

My wife really wanted an ev - would have been cheaper to stick with ice or get a hybrid, but she really likes the ev experience, so we got one. She loved it so much, she is on her 2nd, and to be fair, for her needs, it is much nicer than a gas car. But it certainly cost more for now

 

[MarAzul]

If the math does not work, I do not think it makes sense to change unless it makes her happy.

My wife really wanted an ev - would have been cheaper to stick with ice or get a hybrid, but she really likes the ev experience, so we got one. She loved it so much, she is on her 2nd, and to be fair, for her needs, it is much nicer than a gas car. But it certainly cost more for now

Well there are some other reason that I like for her. Less trips to the gas station, and the ability to plug in at home. Hell she could get huge mph numbers. But then just looking a few moments ago, auto High beam head lights. Damn it! she is terrible at not using the high beams. She hit a deer a couple weeks ago, picking up the grandsons. A glancing blow this time but crap! Did you have the high beams on? I don't remember. It took the passenger side mirror off, that was about it. I like the idea of auto highbeams!!!
And plug it in. I might really like her to have autopilot.

 

[andalusian]

Well there are some other reason that I like for her. Less trips to the gas station, and the ability to plug in at home. Hell she could get huge mph numbers. But then just looking a few moments ago, auto High beam head lights. Damn it! she is terrible at not using the high beams. She hit a deer a couple weeks ago, picking up the grandsons. A glancing blow this time but crap! Did you have the high beams on? I don't remember. It took the passenger side mirror off, that was about it. I like the idea of auto highbeams!!!
And plug it in. I might really like her to have autopilot.

I am not an expert on whatever the options are on the different Prius options - but I can tell you from experience that some of the benefits of EV are real. No gas station visits, no real maintenance, instant acceleration - these are real perks for everyday driving.

I personally really appreciate the no maintenance bit - I have nothing to do with keeping my wife's car operational - so more time to deal with what seems like a broken (physically cracked) Weber 40 on my '67 Alfa.

 

[MarAzul]

I am not an expert on whatever the options are on the different Prius options - but I can tell you from experience that some of the benefits of EV are real. No gas station visits, no real maintenance, instant acceleration - these are real perks for everyday driving.

I personally really appreciate the no maintenance bit - I have nothing to do with keeping my wife's car operational - so more time to deal with what seems like a broken (physically cracked) Weber 40 on my '67 Alfa.

Yes yes!
I totally use all of my wrench power on my boat. I never touch a vehicle.

 

[Chris Craig]

Nikola Tesla had discovered a process that would give everyone free renewable sustainable energy that would mean there was no longer a need for coal, oil, gas, and other fossil fuels that would destroy our planet and that we would one day run out of. After his death, his papers on the subject and other answers to our biggest problems were stolen by Trumps uncle John G Trump.

 

[barfo]

Perhaps I am just a skeptic, but I just don't believe 93 pound battery runs that car far.
I have 1000 pound of batteries in the boat to run a few electronics a day.

What kind of batteries are in your boat, though?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Oh my, Troll on the loose.

 

[MarAzul]

Heavy mothers. By Trojan.

Mostly T-125s

 

[MarAzul]

Not sure about the idea of a coal-fired car being more efficient than using electricity from a coal-fired plant. Yes you lose something in the conversion to electricity, but a tiny coal engine is not going to be as efficient as a coal power plant.

barfo

I saw a steam engine this summer in Cathlamet. A tree cylinder triple expansion engine that ran a 20 foot boat. What marvelous little beast it was. The fire box worked with small wood chunks or coal. Probably well with pellets too I imagine. I would love to have it in my boat to use as heater and generate 12volt power. The whole thing weighed about 100 pounds. Tested to produce 4 hp.

Four Hp would gen about 100 amps of 12 volt power. The alternator would add maybe 15 pounds. That would be a gem running on pellets and coal chips, with a 400 rpm piston engine running on the fantail. Probably couldn't even hear it.