Politics Grand jury subpoenas issued in FBI's Russia investigation

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Minstrel said:
Yes, I'm sure he had no contact with Russians during a business deal that fell apart. How much contact remains to be seen. For a guy who's completely innocent of all wrong-doing, he sure lies a lot.
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There are two "Russians" who work with me (in reality). I have no business with Russia.

Isn't it odd that Trump is a moron yet is so slick he hasn't left any evidence of wrongdoing?
 
barfo said:
Let's wait and see what happens is not part of any conspiracy theory. Your position, on the other hand, seems to get tougher every day. I don't envy you - but then you chose the rock, and you chose the steep hill, and you choose to keep trying to keep that rock from crushing you as it rolls downhill instead of leaping out of the way. Enjoy!

barfo
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The JFK conspiracy theory is still going.

That's how these mass hysteria things work.

I would say that I feel sorry for you being so bitterly disappointed at the election results and that you'll be disappointed that this conspiracy theory goes nowhere, too, but... I don't feel sorry for you. It's your doing - that you don't get it likely means another 4 years for Trump come next election.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
It's kinda hard to "misrepresent" anything you've written, as your narrative changes to fit the days news (fake or otherwise). And I learned before I even joined the site that the only one who "wins" a debate here is you. The rest of us just play for top runner up. And plenty of us see a plethora of slam dunk proof that Donald Trump is a lying, tax dodging, ill mannered and boorish piece of shit who is utterly unqualified to lead this country, regardless of whether he was elected (by a minority of voters) or not. Sorry that doesn't fit your own narrative, but then, it's not your personal narrative that matters in my reality.....
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I do post the news I read, daily. What's odd is it is the news that changes its story daily.

TDS. That's seeing slam dunk proof Trump did everything evil in the world.

I don't try to "win" anything. That's you misrepresenting me again.
 
Denny Crane said:
Isn't it odd that Trump is a moron yet is so slick he hasn't left any evidence of wrongdoing?
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There seems to be enough evidence to make convening a grand jury worthwhile. Whether the proof is sufficient to lead to charges is what Mueller's investigation will determine. As I've said, if his investigation finds Trump to be clean of any criminal wrong-doing, I'll accept that.

It's not like I have a rooting interest, really--Trump being impeached would mean Pence becomes President and I'd be more concerned about a President Pence than I am about a President Trump. Pence is an old school Biblical conservative who would work very well with the Washington establishment. Trump is a muddled individual with few convictions who spends as much time attacking his "own side" as anyone else.
 
Minstrel said:
There seems to be enough evidence to make convening a grand jury worthwhile. Whether the proof is sufficient to lead to charges is what Mueller's investigation will determine. As I've said, if his investigation finds Trump to be clean of any criminal wrong-doing, I'll accept that.

It's not like I have a rooting interest, really--Trump being impeached would mean Pence becomes President and I'd be more concerned about a President Pence than I am about a President Trump. Pence is an old school Biblical conservative who would work very well with the Washington establishment. Trump is a muddled individual with few convictions who spends as much time attacking his "own side" as anyone else.
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Yeah, and they raided Trump's house looking for documents.

My bad, it was Manafort, who was fired from the Trump campaign with months to go.
 
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mueller-investigation-black-box/538707/

Of course, there’s another way to read them, too: Mueller keeps pushing into new directions because he’s not finding any smoking guns in the places he’s looked so far. Most recent reports suggest that Mueller is focusing less on questions of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia and more on obstruction of justice, or questionable business dealings by Trump and associates. But only Mueller and his team actually know.
 
Denny Crane said:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mueller-investigation-black-box/538707/

Of course, there’s another way to read them, too: Mueller keeps pushing into new directions because he’s not finding any smoking guns in the places he’s looked so far. Most recent reports suggest that Mueller is focusing less on questions of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia and more on obstruction of justice, or questionable business dealings by Trump and associates. But only Mueller and his team actually know.
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The thing I like best about that article is the mention of Bobby Three Sticks, which I hadn't heard before and I'm totally going to call him from now on.

But yes, nobody actually knows much about the investigation and what, if anything, they've found.

And you "there's no evidence" people are just going to have to be patient. You don't know who's guilty or innocent of what right now, and nobody is going to tell you.

barfo
 
Right. We don't know, because the FBI raided Trump's offices looking for papers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/business/media/cnn-retraction-trump-scaramucci.html?_r=0

Late on a Monday afternoon in June, members of CNN’s elite investigations team were summoned to a fourth-floor room in the network’s glassy headquarters in Midtown Manhattan.

A top CNN executive, Terence Burke, had startling news: three of their colleagues, including the team’s executive editor, were leaving the network in the wake of a retracted article about Russia and a close ally of President Trump. Effective immediately, Mr. Burke said, the team would stop publishing stories while managers reviewed what had gone wrong.

It was a chilling moment for a unit that boasted Pulitzer Prize winners and superstar internet sleuths, and had been introduced at the beginning of the year as the vanguard of CNN’s original, high-impact reporting. Its mission statement — “Seek truth. Break news. Hold the powerful accountable.” — invoked the sort of exhaustive reporting that has become an increasingly coveted skill for news organizations in the Trump era.

But within months of its introduction, the unit, CNN Investigates, had been rocked by damaging reporting errors — including another flawed story about Mr. Trump and Russia earlier in June — and its mistakes had disturbed network executives who were already embroiled in a public feud with the White House.

The retracted story and ignominious exits of three prominent journalists was an embarrassing episode for CNN, particularly at a time when there was widespread mistrust in the media and Mr. Trump was regularly attacking the press. Two months later it remains an illuminating chapter in the network’s effort to carry out the meticulous, time-consuming work of investigative journalism within the fast-paced, ratings-driven world of 24-hour cable news.
 
Denny Crane said:
Right. We don't know, because the FBI raided Trump's offices looking for papers.
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You don't actually know whether they raided Trump's offices or not.

barfo
 
barfo said:
You don't actually know whether they raided Trump's offices or not.

barfo
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If they were raided, we'd all know. A bunch of FBI folks storming Trump Tower would be hard to miss.

While a grand jury investigation is required to be kept secret by the investigators, it's not required to be kept secret by those brought before it.

I am certain you will be disappointed in the end.

Unless there is some concrete evidence Trump obstructed justice (which there isn't), some quid pro quo arrangement with Putin (which there isn't), or some other crime (which there isn't) that we'd already know about, there is no good ending to this for you.

Flynn isn't even in the news much anymore, so maybe they're not even going after him in the end.

Manafort has been reportedly the focus of things for months - maybe they'll pin something on him.

I will say this, though. If there's any proof (which there isn't) Trump colluded with the Russians to break into the DNC computers or otherwise hack, or even later simply directed when and how information was distributed to the media from these intrusions, then I'm all for impeachment. Yet, I find this incredibly far fetched and uncredible.

Don't hold your breath.
 
Denny Crane said:
If they were raided, we'd all know. A bunch of FBI folks storming Trump Tower would be hard to miss.

While a grand jury investigation is required to be kept secret by the investigators, it's not required to be kept secret by those brought before it.

I am certain you will be disappointed in the end.

Unless there is some concrete evidence Trump obstructed justice (which there isn't), some quid pro quo arrangement with Putin (which there isn't), or some other crime (which there isn't) that we'd already know about, there is no good ending to this for you.

Flynn isn't even in the news much anymore, so maybe they're not even going after him in the end.

Manafort has been reportedly the focus of things for months - maybe they'll pin something on him.

I will say this, though. If there's any proof (which there isn't) Trump colluded with the Russians to break into the DNC computers or otherwise hack, or even later simply directed when and how information was distributed to the media from these intrusions, then I'm all for impeachment. Yet, I find this incredibly far fetched and uncredible.

Don't hold your breath.
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You don't seem to understand how the process works, or my role in it. I'm here for the entertainment, and nothing you've said suggests this is going to get any less entertaining anytime soon.

It doesn't matter what you are certain of. There's news coming out practically every day, and some of it contradicts things that you've been certain of in the past.

Either someone will be brought up on criminal charges, or they won't. Either the congress will vote on impeachment, or they won't.

So you go ahead and be certain. Keep pushing that rock. I'll sit here on the porch with my margarita and watch your struggle.

barfo
 
Denny Crane said:
Manafort has been reportedly the focus of things for months - maybe they'll pin something on him.
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I've said all along....he's the fall guy. Trump will always have a fall guy in place....what we'll find out is if Manafort will flip on Trump...coming attractions ..
 
I ran one of the early internet advertising agencies. Our clients mostly spent $1M+/month on advertising. To put things in perspective.

But let's make this into something far more serious than it was. If it's true.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/us/politics/russia-facebook-twitter-election.html

The Fake Americans Russia Created to Influence the Election

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/...edCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article

Fake Russian Facebook Accounts Bought $100,000 in Political Ads
 
Denny Crane said:
I ran one of the early internet advertising agencies. Our clients mostly spent $1M+/month on advertising. To put things in perspective.

But let's make this into something far more serious than it was. If it's true.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/us/politics/russia-facebook-twitter-election.html

The Fake Americans Russia Created to Influence the Election

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/...edCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article

Fake Russian Facebook Accounts Bought $100,000 in Political Ads
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It's funny how these things are denied, denied, denied. And then they turn out to be true. Like meetings with the Russians, which certainly never ever happened, until it turned out there was evidence they did.

If it's all so innocent, why so many lies about it?

barfo
 
barfo said:
It's funny how these things are denied, denied, denied. And then they turn out to be true. Like meetings with the Russians, which certainly never ever happened, until it turned out there was evidence they did.

If it's all so innocent, why so many lies about it?

barfo
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Right. In a campaign where people met with thousands or tens of thousands of people, meeting a Russian here or there might happen. To even remember a particular meeting out of so many would be remarkable.

The question is if there was anything sinister to these meetings. The only thing sinister about them is between people's ears, not in reality.

Again, if they find collusion (that is not a crime), I'd be all for impeachment and removal. I wouldn't hold your breath, there's no indication of collusion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...ce-of-collusion-fades/?utm_term=.861553f3ef88

The Trump-Russia story survives, even as evidence of collusion fades

The media’s willingness to publish anything related to Trump and Russia with negative inferences and allegations of unrelated wrongdoing demonstrates just how desperate they are to keep this story alive. CNN is, perhaps, the worst culprit. The unabashedly anti-Trump news outlet hosts a dedicated webpage, “The Russia Investigation,” where its catalog of Russia-related stories only serves to reinforce the fact there is no evidence to suggest any form of collusion occurred. They must realize that, and yet they persist.

The whole notion that there was ever collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia in order to influence the 2016 election appears to be fading into the rearview mirror.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/...op-stories&mtrref=undefined&assetType=opinion

Let’s Not Get Carried Away

In retrospect Whitewater seems overblown. And yet it has to be confessed that, at least so far, the Whitewater scandal was far more substantive than the Russia-collusion scandal now gripping Washington.

There may be a giant revelation still to come. But as the Trump-Russia story has evolved, it is striking how little evidence there is that any underlying crime occurred — that there was any actual collusion between the Donald Trump campaign and the Russians. Everything seems to be leaking out of this administration, but so far the leaks about actual collusion are meager.

There were some meetings between Trump officials and some Russians, but so far no more than you’d expect from a campaign that was publicly and proudly pro-Putin. And so far nothing we know of these meetings proves or even indicates collusion.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be an investigation into potential Russia-Trump links. Russia’s attack on American democracy was truly heinous, and if the Trump people were involved, that would be treason. I’m saying first, let’s not get ahead of ourselves and assume that this link exists.
 
Denny Crane said:
Right. In a campaign where people met with thousands or tens of thousands of people, meeting a Russian here or there might happen. To even remember a particular meeting out of so many would be remarkable.
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So why lie about it after the meeting was discovered?

barfo
 
barfo said:
So why lie about it after the meeting was discovered?

barfo
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It's only a lie if you know what you're saying is false.

That will get you every time.

It's not like Hiliar saying, "Benghazi was the result of a youtube video" the same night she emailed her daughter it was a terrorist act. Hard to argue she forgot the truth within a few hours.
 
Denny Crane said:
It's only a lie if you know what you're saying is false.
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So they didn't know, after the meeting, that the meeting wasn't about adoptions? That's a bit hard to believe.

barfo
 
barfo said:
I'm not actually Maddow, but it's a flattering comparison. She's a pretty smart lady.

Not clear what that has to do with the topic we've been discussing, however.

barfo
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It's you being wrong like her. Hyped up conspiracy theory, debunked. Embarrassingly so.

It's like watching Lucy take the football away while Charlie Brown is trying to kick it. Like him, you never learn.
 
Denny Crane said:
It's you being wrong like her. Hyped up conspiracy theory, debunked. Embarrassingly so.
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I agree that was overhyped, but she wasn't factually wrong - she did in fact have the tax returns.

Doesn't seem to have hurt her, I read that hers is the top rated cable news show lately.

But I see you've changed the subject, which we all know is your method of surrendering.

barfo
 
barfo said:
I agree that was overhyped, but she wasn't factually wrong - she did in fact have the tax returns.

Doesn't seem to have hurt her, I read that hers is the top rated cable news show lately.

But I see you've changed the subject, which we all know is your method of surrendering.

barfo
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OMG, according to you, she effectively lied but now you're defending her, defending the indefensible.

No, I haven't changed the subject. Just like this is overhyped and turned out to be a big embarrassment, so is the Russia, Russia, Russia thing.
 
Denny Crane said:
OMG, according to you, she effectively lied but now you're defending her, defending the indefensible.

No, I haven't changed the subject. Just like this is overhyped and turned out to be a big embarrassment, so is the Russia, Russia, Russia thing.
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You aren't making any sense. Saying 'this is really exciting' about something that the listener doesn't find all that exciting isn't a lie under the normal meaning of the word.

Too bad no one agrees with you on the Russia, Russia, Russia thing. Including the Trump team. "If this is what you say it is, I love it"

barfo
 
barfo said:
You aren't making any sense. Saying 'this is really exciting' about something that the listener doesn't find all that exciting isn't a lie under the normal meaning of the word.

Too bad no one agrees with you on the Russia, Russia, Russia thing. Including the Trump team. "If this is what you say it is, I love it"

barfo
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The news lied about him paying $0 in taxes for decades, then found proof he paid 10s of $millions.

The media lied all along. Just like about Russia, Russia, Russia.

"It wasn't what you said it is, I didn't love it." :lol:
 
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