Greg's minutes

[PapaG]

Okay... How can he learn to be a franchise center in this league if he has no plays run for him? How can he learn the patterns of other centers if he's sitting out halfs of games when healthy? Did you see Howard sitting out halfs his first year? How about Shaq? By pulling him, Nate is slowly killing this kids fire for the game and you can see it on his face!

He does have plays run for him.

 

[Natebishop3]

Why poison what is known as a great locker room by forcing the offense through a guy who admittedly isn't ready for that responsibility on a nightly basis?

I understand that I am an object for people's frustrations over Oden's performance, but I'm not sure why me saying it is OK that Oden isn't the primary vehicle for the offense means you and others need to criticize me in a personal manner.

When have I ever said we should force the ball to him? I said we're not using him correctly and I stand by that statement.

You are playing a victim.

 

[Minstrel]

Which dominant post player has Adelman developed into a tier-one All-Star? Yao doesn't count because he was effective a long time prior to Adelman going to Houston.

My reason for wanting Adelman is not because he's "developed" a big man. It's because I think he's an excellent coach who is great at tailoring offenses to his players' strengths. I don't rely on the head coach to develop Oden. I think experience and practice will develop him. I rely on the head coach to use the players optimally, to best aid that experience-getting. Adelman had very different personnel in Portland and Sacramento and did a great job with both, IMO.

I'm not really indicting McMillan as a bad coach. I just think Adelman is better...one of the best in the league. Like anyone else on the team, upgrading is good. I think Adelman would do a better job of getting the ball to Oden in a position to succeed, in addition to all the other talented players on the team.

 

[PapaG]

When have I ever said we should force the ball to him? I said we're not using him correctly and I stand by that statement.

You are playing a victim.

Have you read the thread? You are criticizing me for an argument that I haven't made. I never said Oden was being used or misused in the right manner. I have been responding to the extreme position Yardape took early in the thread. Do I think it's more an Oden issue than a Nate issue right now? Sure.

Again though, whatever.

 

[Natebishop3]

That was a back and forth conversation that got out of hand in a game thread. You were not a victim, but you clearly carry a grudge.

I don't, so whatever, flame away. If you can't handle someone who doesn't think exactly the same way you do and get upset, perhaps the internet is not the ideal place for you. I offer perfectly legitimate points about where Greg is at in his career, his own words seem to back what I say, yet Nate needs to be fired and replaced with Rick Adelman, who isn't exactly known for his post-first mentality, and who far as I can tell has not worked with the development of a dominant big man.

You completely disregard what I said in my post, and bring up things that others have said instead? That makes your "legitimate points" moot. If you can't debate the points that I raise, then you lose the argument.

 

[PapaG]

My reason for wanting Adelman is not because he's "developed" a big man. It's because I think he's an excellent coach who is great at tailoring offenses to his players' strengths. I don't rely on the head coach to develop Oden. I think experience and practice will develop him. I rely on the head coach to use the players optimally, to best aid that experience-getting. Adelman had very different personnel in Portland and Sacramento and did a great job with both, IMO.

I'm not really indicting McMillan as a bad coach. I just think Adelman is better...one of the best in the league. Like anyone else on the team, upgrading is good. I think Adelman would do a better job of getting the ball to Oden in a position to succeed, in addition to all the other talented players on the team.

I have nothing at all against Adelman and also think he's a great coach. I just don't see him as an instant panacea for Greg Oden's game; Oden is not ready to be a dominant force right now regardless of who is coaching him.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

If Greg is getting 22 and 10 rebounds for the rest of the season because Nate is running plays for him then Nate remains the coach! I don't think that running a few more plays for Greg would be a bad thing considering that Sergio dribbles the ball until the shot clock expires and nothing happens. We have touches for him trust me! Another thing if LA was on the low block right and Greg on the left, it would be very hard to double either one. It would also allow both of them to kick out to a wide open guard for a three! Greg at the top of the key is lame. When he rolls the guard never finds him.

 

[PapaG]

You completely disregard what I said in my post, and bring up things that others have said instead? That makes your "legitimate points" moot. If you can't debate the points that I raise, then you lose the argument.

I read it all. I've read it before. It's nothing original and I don't agree with it all or disagree with it all.

As for debating points, you started on me without debating a single thing I wrote prior to you joining this discussion.

Meh

 

[Minstrel]

I have nothing at all against Adelman and also think he's a great coach. I just don't see him as an instant panacea for Greg Oden's game; Oden is not ready to be a dominant force right now regardless of who is coaching him.

He's not ready to be a dominant force, I agree. I think he's ready to take on more of a role than he has so far.

 

[Natebishop3]

I read it all. I've read it before. It's nothing original and I don't agree with it all or disagree with it all.

As for debating points, you started on me without debating a single thing I wrote prior to you joining this discussion.

Meh

Your reply to other posters was this:

Oden being raw, unpolished, and a walking foul is Nate's fault?

I knew early on that this was another "bash Nate" thread.

How about this? Nate has the team 5th in the West with the "franchise" center being schooled by the likes of Brook Lopez.

You're falling back on Nate's record and Oden's being "raw, unpolished, and a walking foul." I simply said that if you can't see that Nate is misusing Oden, you don't know very much about basketball. You claim that "I don't think he's being grossly misused, at least to the point of Nate needing to be fired." I refuted that point. You're right, you've been side stepping the issue throughout the last page or so. You have avoided the topic, instead choosing to play the victim.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

PapaG.. My only concern is Greg might get his confidence rocked just like Kwame Brown and end up the same. I know Greg has talent and could be a hall of fame center! I don't think Nate has the vision to help him get there. So do I pick Nate and a 5-9 playoff team now VS the next coming of Bill Russel? I've got to go with the latter.

 

[maybeso]

PapaG.. My only concern is Greg might get his confidence rocked just like Kwame Brown and end up the same. I know Greg has talent and could be a hall of fame center! I don't think Nate has the vision to help him get there. So do I pick Nate and a 5-9 playoff team now VS the next coming of Bill Russel? I've got to go with the latter.

I believe that many of us have forgotten the DECLARED policy for Oden this year: Defense and rebounds. The Blazer management decided early on not to make him a focal point of the offense because it was "too much" in his rookie year.

Many of us want to see Oden dominate offensively right now, but that isn't what management said they were going to do. That's the only legitimate explanation I can find for the fact the guards ignore him when he is open. Perhaps that is the plan.

Debate that plan if you will, but it looks like Nate wants him to learn defense first and then he'll make him part of the offense.

 

[PapaG]

He's not ready to be a dominant force, I agree. I think he's ready to take on more of a role than he has so far.

That depends. He obviously has had some very good games where he takes on a large role in the offense. So that shows Nate knows how to use him in the correct manner on those nights.

So, on nights like last night, is that just Nate deciding not to use Oden? Or is it Oden not being consistent as an immature offensive player?

Chicken and egg, I suppose.

 

[PapaG]

Your reply to other posters was this:



You're falling back on Nate's record and Oden's being "raw, unpolished, and a walking foul." I simply said that if you can't see that Nate is misusing Oden, you don't know very much about basketball. You claim that "I don't think he's being grossly misused, at least to the point of Nate needing to be fired." I refuted that point. You're right, you've been side stepping the issue throughout the last page or so. You have avoided the topic, instead choosing to play the victim.

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about at this point. Are you posting my out of context posts for any other reason than to frame your argument toward me? I remind you, I wasn't addressing YOUR POSTS in any of the quotes you snipped and re-posted.

As for "falling back on Nate's record", so what? I'm impressed by what he has done with 4 rookies now in the rotation, and I am excited to see what Bayless can do now that he slowed down the game enough to have success. If anything, Nate should be fired for letting Bayless sit while Sergio, who is going nowhere fast with this organization, still gets minutes.

 

[Minstrel]

That depends. He obviously has had some very good games where he takes on a large role in the offense. So that shows Nate knows how to use him in the correct manner on those nights.

So, on nights like last night, is that just Nate deciding not to use Oden? Or is it Oden not being consistent as an immature offensive player?

Chicken and egg, I suppose.

It's definitely opinion, and it's impossible to know for sure. I think Oden's not consistently the player he was against Chicago...but last night, for example, on successive possessions he scored easily (once) and then drew a couple of fouls on Lopez. And then never got another pass. I think Oden had shown that he was capable of overmatching Lopez in the post, and still didn't get the ball. Then after he committed his second foul, he got pulled and barely saw the floor again.

I think that's an example where he could have played a larger role, had he been given the ball more.

 

[PapaG]

It's definitely opinion, and it's impossible to know for sure. I think Oden's not consistently the player he was against Chicago...but last night, for example, on successive possessions he scored easily (once) and then drew a couple of fouls on Lopez. And then never got another pass. I think Oden had shown that he was capable of overmatching Lopez in the post, and still didn't get the ball. Then after he committed his second foul, he got pulled and barely saw the floor again.

I think that's an example where he could have played a larger role, had he been given the ball more.

I think you are correct, although Roy was torching the Nets (haha) in the 1st quarter last night, so it's tough to grind the offense to a halt when your All-Star is the process of exploiting a mis-match.

A year from now, I'll be much harsher on how Oden is being used, but at this point, he is a very inconsistent player who will have ups and downs, and he'll learn plenty from that without the added responsibility of carrying the offense (as others have suggested, not you).

 

[PapaG]

PapaG.. My only concern is Greg might get his confidence rocked just like Kwame Brown and end up the same. I know Greg has talent and could be a hall of fame center! I don't think Nate has the vision to help him get there. So do I pick Nate and a 5-9 playoff team now VS the next coming of Bill Russel? I've got to go with the latter.

Bill Russell never had the offense depend on him. He was perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time, however. I'll take Bill Russell-lite in Oden, but your approach seems to be more about making Oden a Shaq or a Kareem.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

A good way to get Greg to improve is to get him playoff experience. So, winning games is as important as giving Greg touches for purposes of developing Greg. However, winning games sometimes means Greg won't play for stretches.

Really, Greg is still not in basketball shape. Touches will be more valuable when he is (which should happen before the end of the season).

 

[MrJayremmie]

I believe that many of us have forgotten the DECLARED policy for Oden this year: Defense and rebounds. The Blazer management decided early on not to make him a focal point of the offense because it was "too much" in his rookie year.

Honestly, I believe that this was the policy as he eased in to the NBA because of his struggles early on. I think the longer he is in the league, the more he can and should handle. I also think that his defense will improve with offensive touches. It might sound odd, but I think it would be a wonderful thing for Gregory.

He's not ready to be a dominant force, I agree. I think he's ready to take on more of a role than he has so far.

Well said, my man. You have made good points throughout, and I agree w/ your assessment of Adelman also.

Back to Greg, I think that we shouldn't be babying his mentality. I think he can handle whatever we throw at him right now, and if he can't it will be valuable learning experience. I honestly believe that giving Greg an increased (by a good amount) offensive role is best for the team as a whole, and like i stated, will improve his defensive game and mental state in the process. The kid will make mistakes, but i'm fine w/ living through it because it will pay off. Same reason i'm fine living with Bayless's mistakes, and would be fine giving him 20mpg.

 

[MrJayremmie]

although Roy was torching the Nets (haha)

Nice!

Bill Russell never had the offense depend on him. He was perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time, however. I'll take Bill Russell-lite in Oden, but your approach seems to be more about making Oden a Shaq or a Kareem.

True, but even as a defensive player, the guy got more than 3-5 shots a game, ya know? He got touches.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Which dominant post player has Adelman developed into a tier-one All-Star? Yao doesn't count because he was effective a long time prior to Adelman going to Houston.

I'll ask again, since I don't "know basketball" and need somebody who does to answer the question for me.

It's a fair question. He took Duckworth, a second round pick, and turned him into a 2 time all-star. You have to give him some credit for that. He did OK developing Miller in Sac-Town (after the Bulls gave up on him), and Webber played his best *team* ball for Adelman.


I would argue that guys like Duncan or KG or Shaq are going to "develop" for most coaches. I am more impressed that Adelamn took less talented guys (Miller, Duck, Uncle Cliffie) and got the most possible out of them.

 

[PapaG]

Nice!



True, but even as a defensive player, the guy got more than 3-5 shots a game, ya know? He got touches.

I imagine Oden will continue to get more touches as he becomes a mismatch against more players, or in other words, when he further develops his offensive game.

It's not like Oden only gets 2 shots in every game. Some nights, he has shown why he will be an All-Star. On other nights, he shows why he isn't yet ready to be the focus of the offense. I'm getting criticized, but I'm not the one advocating throwing things at him that he may not be ready for. We're not in the locker room, the team is winning, Oden is a work in progress. I'm fine with that scenario at this point.

 

[oldmangrouch]

There are 3 over-lapping problems: Nate's offense, the play of the PGs, and Oden's own shortcomings.

Some of you are quick to blame Nate....but I believe he is playing the hand he has been dealt. Blake is only a "PG" in the Steve Kerr designated shooter mold. Sergio is (frankly) over-rated by some of you. He may look spectacular on the break, but he is really that good in the half-court? Bayless hasn't played enough to make a fair judgement. Our best hope (barring a trade) is that Roy and Rudy are smart enough to learn to get the ball into the post at the right time and place. The fact that we have to rely n our SGs to fill that role, should be a red flag.

But hey......we don't need an upgrade at the PG.....just let that cake bake.

 

[PapaG]

It's a fair question. He took Duckworth, a second round pick, and turned him into a 2 time all-star. You have to give him some credit for that. He did OK developing Miller in Sac-Town (after the Bulls gave up on him), and Webber played his best *team* ball for Adelman.


I would argue that guys like Duncan or KG or Shaq are going to "develop" for most coaches. I am more impressed that Adelamn took less talented guys (Miller, Duck, Uncle Cliffie) and got the most possible out of them.

Duck wasn't the primary scorer, and neither was Miller, although Miller did become a very good center, albeit a center who plays a completely different and a more perimeter orientated game than Oden.

What I am trying to figure out is, outside of Shaq, what other dominant center in the past 25 years is/was strictly a back-to-the-basket player. Oden is zero threat at this point if he gets the ball in an offensive set facing the basket. Is the idea to just post him up every time, assume the double, and then rotate the ball for perimeter shots? How does that help Oden's game evolve?

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm not talking about being a superstar his rookie year. I'm talking about a GREAT center. Greg is not one RIGHT NOW. Howard is RIGHT NOW. I'm saying if we had Howard on our team (the Howard of today), i think Nate would go through him.

And HOLY COW at the last part. When did i say he should sit? Did you read the 2nd part of my post? And the part I said there is no excuse to cut his minutes? I'm just talking about playing the offense through Greg. I think playing through Roy gives us the best chance to win right now... and it does.

Don't be a selective reader man, that is no fun. Your comment had nothing to do with mine. Check out the 2nd post of this thread, and re-read the one you were responding to. I'm one of Greg's biggest fans.

The "you" wasn't the singular you, MrJ. No worries...it was my fault for writing a post that responded to multiples at once and didn't clarify. The part about yours was more in the irony that you brought up Howard's name, since I'd looked at Howard's stats before in comparison with where Greg was in regards to a young center progressing. That's it.

 

[MrJayremmie]

I'm fine with that scenario at this point.

You may be, but others are not. That is where the differences come into play. And I agree w/ the others that he is being under-utilized on the offensive end.

The "you" wasn't the singular you, MrJ. No worries...it was my fault for writing a post that responded to multiples at once and didn't clarify. The part about yours was more in the irony that you brought up Howard's name, since I'd looked at Howard's stats before in comparison with where Greg was in regards to a young center progressing. That's it.

Well then, i'm sorry as well for getting upset.

 

[PapaG]

You may be, but others are not. That is where the differences come into play. And I agree w/ the others that he is being under-utilized on the offensive end.

That's fair. I just don't see how my differing opinion means I "don't know basketball", as others have posted.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

I think you know basketball! I just don't agree on how we get our center to the place he needs to be most effective. I think Nate's approach will kill his confidence and thus make him Kwame if changes aren't made in a hurry!

This kid is used to being THE MAN!!!! Nate has made him into a 4 or 5 option. I think Nate needs a Psych. class, cause he's missing the signs all over Odens face! If this kid loses his confidence, his game is gone too!

 

[PapaG]

I think you know basketball! I just don't agree on how we get our center to the place he needs to be most effective. I think Nate's approach will kill his confidence and thus make him Kwame if changes aren't made in a hurry!

This kid is used to being THE MAN!!!! Nate has made him into a 4 or 5 option. I think Nate needs a Psych. class, cause he's missing the signs all over Odens face! If this kid loses his confidence, his game is gone too!

I can definitely see your side as well. I think you may be a bit extreme in how you want Oden used, but I'm not against getting him more involved in the offense. I suppose the succession of "fire Nate" posts earlier in the thread made my posts a bit more rigid than they may otherwise have been.

Anyhow, go Blazers!