Gun Control, Mental healthcare, big brother... thread (1 Viewer)

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SlyPokerDog said:
I'm against heroine, cocaine, and most other drugs currently considered illegal.

I'm also against foreign and domestic terrorism.

I'm also for background checks for all gun sales because like I just said I am against foreign and domestic terrorism.
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So you think that background checks work? Didn't the UCC guy get all his guns legally? I think 7 of the guns was actually registered to him. So how did that help?
 
magnifier661 said:
So you think that background checks work? Didn't the UCC guy get all his guns legally? I think 7 of the guns was actually registered to him. So how did that help?
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Background checks aren't going to stop everything. It's just like arguing that since airbags don't prevent all auto accident deaths that there shouldn't be any airbags at all. This argument that since background checks don't stop everything we're better off with nothing is ridiculous.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Background checks aren't going to stop everything. It's just like arguing that since airbags don't prevent all auto accident deaths that there shouldn't be any airbags at all. This argument that since background checks don't stop everything we're better off with nothing is ridiculous.
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But background checks already is law and most are fine with it. But isn't that the law everywhere anyway? And it doesn't stop anything.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
How do you know it didn't stop anything?
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Because people dying in these schools used legally registered guns. Some weren't theirs, but they were obtained legally. And criminals that may not be able to get guns legally can still buy them illegally
 
magnifier661 said:
Because people dying in these schools used legally registered guns. Some weren't theirs, but they were obtained legally. And criminals that may not be able to get guns legally can still buy them illegally
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So allowing everyone to have unregistered guns is going to stop that?
 
julius said:
wholechart.png
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Is there a chart like this that isn't bullshit? You know, one where suicides and "legal intervention" aren't counted. Oh, leave out the accidental gun deaths too please.

I assume the legal intervention part is self defense or the police shooting a suspect. Maybe the cops run over people in states with stricter gun laws?

I figure the entire chart may follow the same pattern without those things included but I'd like to see for myself.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
The internet has created this epidemic. I'm on a bike ride sitting outside of Whole Foods waiting for my wife. Guns have been around forever, I think that is evidence that guns aren't the problem.

Hell, we should outlaw body armor before guns. Nutjob plus gun plus body armor...not good. Take away his feeling of invincibility at least.
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+> Besides the internet catalizing the issue certain movies glorify gun use. Everyone I know that had seen "Heat" remembers the street- gun battle- body armour and strong assualt weaponry from the bank theives played by DeNiro,Kilmer and Sizemore. The actual event illustrated the fact that those who commit crime don't abide by gun control politics.
 
Mental health people, we need to focus on the mental health crisis. That is the root of the problem, not the damn tools used. We could enact thousands of laws, ban guns, etc. Crazy people will still hurt themselves and others. Infringing on the rights of citizens that live in a 'free' country is not something I can get behind (e.g banning items from said free people). However, with that said, I still believe in checks and balances for items like (cars, guns, airplanes, boats, etc) things that require skill and responsibility to use, that is because all free people are not mentally healthy.
 
I still haven't seen one proposal/solution from the gun lobby here, other than to say "it's a mental health issue." That's a take, not a solution.

Australia passed sweeping gun control after their "Sandy Hook" and it has been very effective. I think the answer here is that you guys don't have any solutions, other than to arm people to the teeth.

Or have I missed something?
 
Stevenson said:
I still haven't seen one proposal/solution from the gun lobby here, other than to say "it's a mental health issue." That's a take, not a solution.

Australia passed sweeping gun control after their "Sandy Hook" and it has been very effective. I think the answer here is that you guys don't have any solutions, other than to arm people to the teeth.

Or have I missed something?
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You are missing the point. The whole thing is "WHY". Why are people killing other people (and themselves) with pressure cookers, and guns, and knives, and whatever other instrument of death they can find.

Why? Because they are sick. Why are they sick? Because we have a damn mental health crisis in America. Why? I don't know why; but all signs point to the abuse of RX's by doctors, big pharma, and the people.


Edit: And enacting more laws isn't a defacto answer. As you can see, the guy already legally obtained firearms, either by himself, or through family. Any nutjob can pass a background test. Specially if they are the nut jobs that have profiles like serial killers.
 
magnifier661 said:
Guess the residents in Roseberg doesn't support @SlyPokerDog

ROSEBERG OREGON RESIDENTS SAY SCHOOL SHOOTING SHOWS WHY CITIZENS MUST BE ARMED
ROSEBURG-oregon-shooting-getty-640x480.jpg

Residents in Roseberg, Oregon, are rallying around the Second Amendment in the wake of the heinous attack on Umpqua Community College (UCC), suggesting the attack itself is proof of why citizens need to be armed for self-defense.
According to the Associated Press, Roseberg is a mill town surrounded by hunting and fishing opportunities, and one where many residents say they do not leave home without a handgun for self-defense. They do not carry because crime is high, but because crime is low and they want to keep it that way.

Consequently, residents like J.C. Smith believe the attack at UCC was made possible by the fact that the school denied the exercise of Second Amendment rights to its students. Smith suggests that “barring people from carrying guns on campus made it particularly vulnerable to a ‘lone wolf’ attack” like the one witnessed Thursday.

Casey Runyan, a disabled Marine, said he carries to protect himself and pointed to the UCC attack as proof of the need to be ready to do so. Runyan said he carries a Glock handgun “everywhere he goes.” He added, “All my friends agree with me. That’s the only kind of friends I have.”

Roseberg sits in Douglas County, where Sheriff John Hanlin drew attention to himself by fighting an expansion of gun control in 2014. He fought hard against expanded background checks–gun control’s Trojan Horse–even sending a letter to Vice President Joe Biden expressing his conviction that the laws being pushed were “offending the constitutional rights of [Douglas County] citizens.”

On October 2–the day after the heinous attack on UCC–Sheriff Hanlin made clear that his views remained the same and gun control is not the solution to stopping attacks like the one carried out in Roseberg.
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I dont understand this, anyone who wanted to could have taken a concealed hand gun class and then been carrying in the classrooms. In fact there was at least one person who was. So is the call to arms for open carry in class rooms or should we just issue weapons as people walk in? I guess that is alright if the class is about guns but it might be a little distracting during a women's history or ceramics session.
 
donkiez said:
I dont understand this, anyone who wanted to could have taken a concealed hand gun class and then been carrying in the classrooms. In fact there was at least one person who was. So is the call to arms for open carry in class rooms or should we just issue weapons as people walk in? I guess that is alright if the class is about guns but it might be a little distracting during a women's history or ceramics session.
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What don't you understand? The president "politicized" gun control on an epic tragedy and the people in the town don't want his insensitive ass there. I wouldn't either regardless if I was pro or con gun control.

That's like a death insurance salesman knocking at your door minutes after a loved one dies and says "See now if you would have bought death insurance, you'd be able to pay for this funeral easier"
 
magnifier661 said:
What don't you understand? The president "politicized" gun control on an epic tragedy and the people in the town don't want his insensitive ass there. I wouldn't either regardless if I was pro or con gun control.

That's like a death insurance salesman knocking at your door minutes after a loved one dies and says "See now if you would have bought death insurance, you'd be able to pay for this funeral easier"
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Your article does not mention Obama and your response does not answer any question.
 
magnifier661 said:
We need to ban all prescription drugs!

http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfacts/prescription/abuse-international-statistics.html

Prescription drugs kill double the amount of gun related deaths in America. We need Obama to make a press conference to politicize these issues after each prescription drug related death.

View attachment 6108
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/cjarlot...bat-prescription-opioid-heroin-abuse-in-2016/

President Obama’s drug control priorities for the upcoming fiscal year include reducing prescription drug and heroin abuse by allocating additional funding to states with prescription drug monitoring programs (PDMPs), expanding and improving treatment for addicts, and spearheading efforts to make naloxone more readily available to first responders.

Announced this week, Obama’s budget for fiscal year 2016 proposes more than $100 million in new investments for the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to decrease the number of deaths involving prescription opioids and heroin.

According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), there were 16,235 deaths involving prescription opioids in 2013, an increase of 1% from 2012. The number of deaths involving heroin increased dramatically. There were 8,257 heroin-related deaths in 2013, up 39% from 2012. Total drug overdose deaths in 2013 hit 43,982, up 6% from 2012.

To improve PDMPs across the country, Obama wants to grow the size of regulatory and law agencies involved in collecting and analyzing controlled substance prescription data; assist the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) with its Strategic Prevention Framework, a five-step process that outlines a prevention strategy within communities; and provide additional funding to the Office of the National Coordinator (ONC) — with the hopes of enhancing prescription drug monitoring.

The Obama Administration’s 2016 strategy for treating individuals addicted to prescription opioids and heroin revolves around providing funding for early intervention support, treatment itself and recovery services. One example of this is expanding access to Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT), an approach that combines medications with counseling and behavioral therapies to treat prescription opioid use disorders (POUDs).

Increasing the use of naloxone, an opioid antagonist, is one way to reduce prescription opioid-related deaths in the United States — an initiative Obama supports. His administration believes more naloxone in the hands of first responders will prevent overdose deaths in high-risk communities. The Clinton Foundation recently partnered with Kaléo, a privately held pharmaceutical company, to make naloxone more accessible to colleges and universities, public safety organizations and community organizations.

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Obama’s budget for fiscal year 2016 includes a total of $27.6 billion (a 4.7% increase from the year prior) to support the administration’s drug control strategy, which places a focus on prevention and treatment instead of a “moral failing.”

Dr. Andrew Kolodny, who is the chief medical officer at Phoenix House, a drug treatment provider, hasn’t had much confidence in Obama’s efforts to curb overdose deaths related to prescription opioids and heroin.

“The response from President Obama to this crisis is shameful,” Kolodny said in a previous interview. “I wouldn’t mind so much that he doesn’t speak about the problem if his agencies were working together to control the problem and if he was allocating the appropriate resources. But that’s not happening.”

A few weeks later, Kolodny’s opinion on Obama’s strategy for tackling prescription opioid and heroin abuse changed — just a bit. “For the first time, his administration is allocating significant funding for the opioid crisis,” he told Forbes. “I’m pleased to finally see this, but it’s very little, very late and only a small portion of the $100 million is for expanding access to opioid treatment addiction.”

“Until treatment, especially in communities hit hardest by the epidemic, is easier to access than pills or heroin, overdose deaths will remain at historically high levels and heroin will continue flooding in,” Kolodny said.

Bob Twillman, executive director of the American Academy of Pain Management, in an interview told Forbes that more needs to be done to effectively combat prescription opioid and heroin abuse in the country, even though Obama’s initiatives have merit.

“I think what happens is when people go to the doctor now and they have pain, the first response for most prescribers and many doctors is okay, let me write you a prescription,” he said. “I think there are a lot of other things we can do besides write prescriptions that will help people with their pain — and that’s especially true for people who have chronic pain.”

There are alternatives to ingesting prescription opioids for pain management: accupuncture, chiropractic, psychotherapy and physicial therapy. Twillman believes expanding access and providing reimbursement for these other methods will bring down prescription opioid abuse. But in order for this to happen, prescribers will need to become better educated on alternatives to prescription opioids for pain management, he noted.
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donkiez said:
Your article does not mention Obama and your response does not answer any question.
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I'm actually amazed he didn't mention Donald Trump.
 
magnifier661 said:
And we can say it's failed to keep the drugs falling in the wrong hands hasn't it. Proof that more regulation is the answer.
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This is actually his plan for 2016. I'll reserve judgement until that year has actually happened.
 
donkiez said:
This is actually his plan for 2016. I'll reserve judgement until that year has actually happened.
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There are more regulations for pharma drugs than any gun laws and it's still sold on the streets like candy. More regulation failed.
 
Stevenson said:
I still haven't seen one proposal/solution from the gun lobby here, other than to say "it's a mental health issue." That's a take, not a solution.

Australia passed sweeping gun control after their "Sandy Hook" and it has been very effective. I think the answer here is that you guys don't have any solutions, other than to arm people to the teeth.

Or have I missed something?
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If you responded to my post (#4 or so) I didn't see it.
 
magnifier661 said:
There are more regulations for pharma drugs than any gun laws and it's still sold on the streets like candy. More regulation failed.
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If pharm drugs were not a problem then there would be no reason for Obama to address the issue with a plan for 2016. Just like if guns were not an issue then we would not have this conversation. The cure is not the cause. The article that you didnt read was about common sense regulation and a plan to help the issue, not to take everyone'e pain medication away. Do you see the parallel to guns in that statement? I hope you do.
 
donkiez said:
If pharm drugs were not a problem then there would be no reason for Obama to address the issue with a plan for 2016. Just like if guns were not an issue then we would not have this conversation. The cure is not the cause. The article that you didnt read was about common sense regulation and a plan to help the issue, not to take everyone'e pain medication away. Do you see the parallel to guns in that statement? I hope you do.
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Um that's what I've said. More regulation after regulation has been put on trying to solve the illegal distribution and even legal abuse of these medications.

So how will regulations really stop criminals from purchasing guns or even using other means of weapons? You think they care about laws?
 
Stevenson said:
I still haven't seen one proposal/solution from the gun lobby here, other than to say "it's a mental health issue." That's a take, not a solution.

Australia passed sweeping gun control after their "Sandy Hook" and it has been very effective. I think the answer here is that you guys don't have any solutions, other than to arm people to the teeth.

Or have I missed something?
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I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you stating that you want the regulations passed in Australia passed here? To include:
"Australian background checks now require information about who gun owners live with. If police had determined that Lanza wouldn't have qualified to own a gun, his mother might have been either refused permission, or required to keep her guns locked in a different location.
She also advocated increasing waiting periods and expanding checks on owners who want more than one gun. "
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Again, who is being weeded out in the background check? What is an "expanded" check?
I don't have a problem with waiting periods. They seem pretty dumb, as I can't think of any incident (perhaps there have been some) where a killer picked up a gun at WalMart and planned an operation within 48/72 hours. But if you have some evidence that it helps, I'm open.
Are you advocating that if you're related to a person who may not pass a background check (again, who are we discriminating against in the check? What backgrounds are acceptable?), you can never own a weapon since there's a chance they could live with you? Do you have to update your registry each time someone moves in/moves out?
 
BrianFromWA said:
If you responded to my post (#4 or so) I didn't see it.
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I proposed we use New Hampshire's gun laws. They have one of the fewest gun violence rates per capita in the country.
 
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