hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

[BrianFromWA]

Actually the Spanish traded for their gold usually, so they'd be welcomed back to trade again.

It was the "religious people fleeing religious persecution in Europe" who massacred the natives.

For someone that keeps bringing up history, you seem to be confused on some of your posts.

I find it hard to believe that printing the Bible set Western Civilization way back. In the mid-15th century Western Europe had not begun to claw its way out of the Middle Ages yet...I find it hard to believe that the catalyst for the Reformation and Renaissance "set back" Western Civilization. By another metric, the "world power" in 1400 was China, who was still practicing Emperor Worship. I guess you really have to be "Enlightened" to not believe in a higher power...since humans have been doing it since recorded time began.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Conquistadores ("conquerors"), many of whom killed their trading partners in a dash for land rights and riches.

When Columbus reached Guadalupe, iirc, he named it "Satan's Island", since the unchurched natives who attacked him when he landed there decided eating their enemies was a good idea.

Who do you think gave you the "Golden Rule"? A secular atheist philosopher?

Examples of leaders who professed atheism: Stalin. Maybe Mao, though he could have been lying. Kim Il Jong? Who am I missing?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Ridiculous nonsense.

Or not, depending on what you mean by "sinned".

I live my life by The Golden Rule, and that's as close as one can be to "sin-free" IMO.

I know many a man and woman who have done no wrong in their lives.

Now we're getting somewhere...if you define right and wrong by your own metrics, you're presupposing that you get to be the moral authority of your universe...all you've done is set yourself up as the "god" who gets to define and judge morality. Instead of a faith in a perfect, all-powerful Creator of the Universe, it's...You!

Living The Golden Rule each second of your life in every thought is actually the second-closest one can be to being "sin-free". The line right before that is "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul and mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: You must love your neighbor as yourselves". Matthew 22:36-38

 

[Denny Crane]

Poppycock.

That's just silly propoganda invented centuries later.

This is closer to the reality of the invasion:

http://fiberfocus.blogspot.com/2008/11/thanksgivings-day-of-mourning-plymouth.html

And since you believed that nonsense, maybe Gutenburg really invented the press to print science textbooks, not the bible? I mean, how can we really be sure? Who can we trust to tell us the truth about the past?

Poppycock yourself

The indians and european settlers were rather friendly towards one another, though there were small battles from time to time. The indians fought with the French in the French and Indian War against the British. They taught the colonists to grow corn. As late as the 1650s, they were showing us paths through the mountains to California.

It wasn't until the secular US government went on an outright extermination campaign in the post civil war years that there was any mass killings of natives by europeans (non spanish). George Custer ring a bell?

Yet you have a population of 6M natives turned into 60K by the spanish and somehow they were out to convert them to christianity? That's just one of many similar stories about the spanish conquests of the New World. Poppycock indeed.

Speaking of secular wars... WW II took 55M lives, and religion had nothing to do with it. WW I had nothing to do with religion. Civil War had nothing to do with religion. Vietnam had nothing to do with religion.

Speaking of slavery... it was a spanish invention here. They enslaved the natives by the millions. Slavery as we know it started out as indentured servitude, where white people and black people sold themselves as slaves for a short period of time (far less than a lifetime) in exchange for a boat ride to get here.

Finally, Hitler was an occultist, but the Nazis were anti-religion, too.

 

[MARIS61]

Look up King Philip's War, 1675. It's also known as the Puritan War.

The Pilgrims attacked and massacred, again in the name of God, 95% of the very tribe who welcomed them to Plymouth Rock. 28,000 people over 2 years. The Wampanoag Indians never recovered.

They spread the body parts of the Indian leader Metacomet around the countryside to be viewed by all.

They were utterly barbaric and very evil people.

 

[MARIS61]

Now we're getting somewhere...if you define right and wrong by your own metrics, you're presupposing that you get to be the moral authority of your universe...all you've done is set yourself up as the "god" who gets to define and judge morality. Instead of a faith in a perfect, all-powerful Creator of the Universe, it's...You!

Obviously I AM the moral authority of my own actions, and you should be of yours.

To shirk that responsibility by saying your imaginary friend will assume it is cowardly.

It's as simple as The Golden Rule. Anything more is distortion and window dressing.

Living The Golden Rule each second of your life in every thought is actually the second-closest one can be to being "sin-free". The line right before that is "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, soul and mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: You must love your neighbor as yourselves". Matthew 22:36-38

The earliest surviving written record of the Golden Rule goes back 4,000 years to the Egyptian civilization. In the 6th century B.C. Confucius said "What you do not like when done to yourself, do not do unto others" "Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire."

Nearly every religion in the world has embraced it as the basis for their view of morality. The trouble starts when they think additional rules are needed for others, which sort of destroys the whole idea of The Golden Rule, which is personal responsibility.

 

[MARIS61]

Here's a good link for a more truthful depiction of the actual history of the Pilgrims:

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_2.html

 

[Ed O]

It certainly does.

I believe if I step in front of a speeding car I will get hurt, maybe crippled or killed, so I don't step in front of a speeding car. Duh.

I don't believe there is a hell where I'll burn in hellfire forever if I don't worship the mythical "God", so I don't worship the mythical "God".

Anyone who actually believed in hell would never risk ending up there for eternity. Not for any reason.

I know I wouldn't.

For MLK's sake, let's all hope I'm right so he's not burning in hellfire as we speak.

Again... your logic is horrible.

People make irrational decisions all of the time. People have unprotected sex in spite of the danger of disease and pregnancy. People drink and drive. People smoke cigarettes. People do a LOT of things that are bad for them... not because they don't believe that consequences exist, but because the future bad things are disregarded in favor of present pleasure.

I'm not a theologian by any means, but of COURSE that is the essence of sin... if sin could be avoided through mere logical application of rules and decision making, then no believer would sin. Of course, the thinking goes, people can't help but sin because they're human.

The act of sinning does not mean that one does not believe that the act is a sin.

Ed O.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Obviously I AM the moral authority of my own actions, and you should be of yours.

To shirk that responsibility by saying your imaginary friend will assume it is cowardly.

It's as simple as The Golden Rule. Anything more is distortion and window dressing

What you are saying has the potential to make sense, and to a certain point I agree with you about personal responsibility. It's not "shirking"...as a member of society you have given up that right to "not be cowardly".

I'll ask a couple of questions:
Since you're the moral authority of your actions, you can't be taken to court? (Since you probably wouldn't do something that you don't feel is moral, right?)
Since you're the moral authority of your actions, you can't go to jail? (Though the "jury of your peers" would probably argue, since they seem to have authority over whether your actions were moral/legal?)

Since those are all laughable and rhetorical questions, who then is the moral authority? It's the government. They make and enforce our laws. And where did they get their "moral authority"? Someone's imaginary friend. And the people of the US bought into that. And it seems that citizenship is based upon acceptance of that moral authority.

 

[MARIS61]

Again... your logic is horrible.

People make irrational decisions all of the time. People have unprotected sex in spite of the danger of disease and pregnancy. People drink and drive. People smoke cigarettes. People do a LOT of things that are bad for them... not because they don't believe that consequences exist, but because the future bad things are disregarded in favor of present pleasure.

Apples and oranges.

The consequences you mention are merely possibilites and therefore may not/probably won't actually happen to any given person, at least in their mind. So no big deal.

To a believer, Hellfire is a certainty/guaranteed outcome as is missing out on Heaven. No way they'd fuck with that.

 

[MARIS61]

What you are saying has the potential to make sense, and to a certain point I agree with you about personal responsibility. It's not "shirking"...as a member of society you have given up that right to "not be cowardly".

I'll ask a couple of questions:
Since you're the moral authority of your actions, you can't be taken to court? (Since you probably wouldn't do something that you don't feel is moral, right?)
Since you're the moral authority of your actions, you can't go to jail? (Though the "jury of your peers" would probably argue, since they seem to have authority over whether your actions were moral/legal?)

Since those are all laughable and rhetorical questions, who then is the moral authority? It's the government. They make and enforce our laws. And where did they get their "moral authority"? Someone's imaginary friend. And the people of the US bought into that. And it seems that citizenship is based upon acceptance of that moral authority.

Don't confuse legal with moral, and don't confuse a majority of the people with each individual person.

Morals have been around much longer than imaginary friends.

 

[Real]

George H.W. Bush was a Christian, but he felt becoming born again would be fake. George W. Bush, after losing in his congressional race, supposedly didnt' want to get "Out-Texaned", and becoming a born again Christian in a state where part of the evangelical bible belt is in, was part of that, and obviously Bush and Rove used that to get Bush elected for president...and of course governor before that.

That's how it was presented in "W."

So if that's true, how did W. give up alcohol? He didn't go to rehab so far as I can tell...

 

[Ed O]

Apples and oranges.

The consequences you mention are merely possibilites and therefore may not/probably won't actually happen to any given person, at least in their mind. So no big deal.

To a believer, Hellfire is a certainty/guaranteed outcome as is missing out on Heaven. No way they'd fuck with that.

Wrong. Sinning does not necessarily result in damnation. There is repentance and a lot of alternate paths to have sin forgiven. It depends on the faith.

And are you actually claiming that every person who smokes cigarettes does not believe she/he will get lung cancer? That's preposterous.

Ed O.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Don't confuse legal with moral, and don't confuse a majority of the people with each individual person.

Morals have been around much longer than imaginary friends.

Legal's foundation is moral, and I submit that no they haven't. If you want to use the biblical perspective that I do, Imaginary Friend created the universe. If you want to use the evolutionary tale, cavemen were staring at the heavens and making up imaginary friends to answer their questions well before anything past "pack/herd mentality" was established, which by definition isn't "moral" b/c animals use it.

We're starting to get into a secular/philosophical area that I'm not as equipped to deal with...I just remember bits and pieces of college philosophy/ethics.

Lemme see what I can dig up about this.

 

[MARIS61]

Wrong. Sinning does not necessarily result in damnation. There is repentance and a lot of alternate paths to have sin forgiven. It depends on the faith.

And are you actually claiming that every person who smokes cigarettes does not believe she/he will get lung cancer? That's preposterous.

Ed O.

Only some smokers get cancer.

Most do not.

Many people drink and drive without mishap all their lives.

etc...

 

[STOMP]

And are you actually claiming that every person who smokes cigarettes does not believe she/he will get lung cancer? That's preposterous.

maybe you worded this too emphatically, but I smoke about a pack a year and don't think I'll get lung cancer

STOMP

 

[crowTrobot]

Wrong. Sinning does not necessarily result in damnation. There is repentance and a lot of alternate paths to have sin forgiven. It depends on the faith.

And are you actually claiming that every person who smokes cigarettes does not believe she/he will get lung cancer? That's preposterous.

Ed O.

it goes without saying that the majority of christians in the USA don't take the implications of what they are supposed to believe seriously. most just use a selective interpretation of the bible and formulate a version of god to fit their own personally derived notions of what is logical and moral for convenience.

 

[Shooter]

George W. Bush, after losing in his congressional race, supposedly didnt' want to get "Out-Texaned", and becoming a born again Christian in a state where part of the evangelical bible belt is in, was part of that, and obviously Bush and Rove used that to get Bush elected for president...and of course governor before that.

Bush takes part in a Bible study in the White House every single morning. Pretty impressive for a guy who is just "faking" his Christian conversion . . .

 

[Minstrel]

Religion, like all things human, reflects human nature. Religion has different aspects, like charity on one hand and exclusion/prejudice on the other. But those things are simply a part of human nature. If religion didn't exist, humans would still be those things, they would simply express them through other avenues. Religion hasn't changed what people are; it's simply been a vehicle for people to express who they are, like everything else people do, including secular governance through the eras.

 

[Ed O]

maybe you worded this too emphatically, but I smoke about a pack a year and don't think I'll get lung cancer

I hope you're right. So that's one person down, tens of millions to go.

I totally believe that some (even many) people who smoke think they will avoid any unpleasantness, but there's no way that every one does, and MARIS is claiming that a willingness to do something in spite of harmful effects indicates a lack of belief in the effects. And that just logically does not follow.

Ed O.

 

[STOMP]

I hope you're right. So that's one person down, tens of millions to go.

I totally believe that some (even many) people who smoke think they will avoid any unpleasantness, but there's no way that every one does, and MARIS is claiming that a willingness to do something in spite of harmful effects indicates a lack of belief in the effects. And that just logically does not follow.

yeah I reread what I quoted from you this morning and saw that I'd probably misread it... sorry

btw... having had 10 or so cigs this year, I'm way behind pace on my habit.

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

Way off topic and just out of curiosity, Stomp:

I could understand if you said you smoked 10 cigars a year or so...why just 10 cigarettes? Is it the flavor that keeps bringing you back? Memories? Social situations?

 

[MARIS61]

Bush takes part in a Bible study in the White House every single morning.

Goes a long ways toward explaining his murdering of Iraqi women and children every single afternoon.

 

[MARIS61]

yeah I reread what I quoted from you this morning and saw that I'd probably misread it... sorry

btw... having had 10 or so cigs this year, I'm way behind pace on my habit.

STOMP

You didn't misread it, Ed O. did.

 

[STOMP]

Way off topic and just out of curiosity, Stomp:

I could understand if you said you smoked 10 cigars a year or so...why just 10 cigarettes? Is it the flavor that keeps bringing you back? Memories? Social situations?

You probably wouldn't guess the reason if you had 1000 tries. I usually smoke a couple a night when I go on ultralight backpacking trips with friends. They are lighter then food and take my mind off of my hunger. If my girl is along, then I bring food and leave the smokes behind. We don't go nearly as far, but it's a different trip entirely

feel free to laugh

STOMP

 

[Денг Гордон]

You probably wouldn't guess the reason if you had 1000 tries. I usually smoke a couple a night when I go on ultralight backpacking trips with friends. They are lighter then food and take my mind off of my hunger. If my girl is along, then I bring food and leave the smokes behind. We don't go nearly as far, but it's a different trip entirely

feel free to laugh

STOMP

In Economics, one of our questions on the final was about hyperinflation in Zimbabwe, and part of the question was about what effects it has on the workers. Part of my response was about how some of the Zimbabweans would buy cigarettes to suppress their hunger, because cigarettes were cheaper than food.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Bush takes part in a Bible study in the White House every single morning. Pretty impressive for a guy who is just "faking" his Christian conversion . . .

That's not really impressive. Thousands of pastors fake every day of their life, pretending they're some holy tool of their god, but in reality it's all about money. That's what it's always been about and always will be about. Church is one of the most profitable business models we know of and people are getting very rich off of it. As well as erecting false idol building costing tens of millions of dollars.

 

[Shooter]

That's not really impressive. Thousands of pastors fake every day of their life, pretending they're some holy tool of their god, but in reality it's all about money.

Yep, that's why Bush is doing it. There's a secret clause in his contract as President that says he gets an extra $100,000 per year for pretending to study the Bible and pray. This is a little-known fact, but I thought I'd share it with you.

 

[bigbailes]

it goes without saying that the majority of christians in the USA don't take the implications of what they are supposed to believe seriously. most just use a selective interpretation of the bible and formulate a version of god to fit their own personally derived notions of what is logical and moral for convenience.

seriously you know this? do you evidence (ie actual #'s) to back this theory up or is it just your own theory. most of the generalizations in this thread are hilarious.

 

[crowTrobot]

seriously you know this? do you evidence (ie actual #'s) to back this theory

More than half of evangelical respondents said that many religions can lead to eternal life, despite the central evangelical tenet that Jesus is the sole path to eternity with God.

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=15907

 

[Shooter]

Goes a long ways toward explaining his murdering of Iraqi women and children every single afternoon.

Uh, huh. I guess Abraham Lincoln "murdered" all of the 618,000 Americans who died in the Civil War, too.