hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Uh, huh. I guess Abraham Lincoln "murdered" all of the 618,000 Americans who died in the Civil War, too.

Your ignorance of history is horrifying. It is lower than scum to compare the American Civil War to the Bush Administration's Occupation of Iraq.

 

[BrianFromWA]

What about the Clinton Administration's occupation of Kosovo (continued by Bush)? Or every administration's since 1945 occupation of Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.? Which, last I checked, STILL had more troops allocated that Afghanistan and Iraq combined. Or the French in Chad? Or...forget it.

Must be for all that German and Japanese Oil. Oh wait, projecting our ideals on others. No, wait...must be something I can't even figure out.Now that's lower than scum. How dare people with access to much more information than I make an executive decision like that!?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Christians always claim people not having Jesus is the reason for their problems. It's their favorite past time and it makes them feel better about themselves.

Not my favorite "past time". Correcting spelling and homophonic errors is much higher. I personally just claimed that my sin was the reason for my problems, but you probably didn't read that.

At my pre-marital counseling, the guy told me that by refraining from the use of "always" and "never", a lot of arguments would not happen. Because, technically, the first Christian that doesn't claim people not having Jesus is the reason for their problems shows you to be uninformed or a liar. Maybe that would be a good tack to take?

My God tells me to tell people about Jesus. Think of it like a mailman with a Publisher's clearinghouse sweepstakes form. I'm told to deliver the mail by my "boss". I don't care if, once you get the mail, you send it in and win a million, burn it, throw it away, etc. Not my problem or concern.

 

[BrianFromWA]

the concept of original sin and the biblical plan of salvation are logically and morally ludicrous. they make absolutely no sense on any level, and christians have to constantly make silly excuses to defend them as you are doing. it's the type of superstitious nonsense you would expect from primitive humans, and far from what you would logically expect from a supposedly morally transcendent beneficent creator.

Which silly excuse did I use?

They make sense on a number of levels, including the one I just explained. If you choose not to believe, that's more than your right. It's incorrect to call them logically and morally ludicrous, since the only framework of morality you have is based upon a) your own desires, or b) societal mores, which are generally heavily based in religion. It seems as if you're either saying that your concept of morality is the correct one, at the expense of 6B people living currently and untold billions from the past, or my ludicrous ones are, which multiple civilizations and countries were based upon.

And where are you getting these attributes of God? "Morally transcendent beneficent", "cruel jealous vindictive tyrant", "perfectly loving"...it's hard to discuss with you when I'm talking about God and you're talking about some made-up amalgamation of things you've heard.

 

[crowTrobot]

Which silly excuse did I use?

that children are deserving of the same consequences as adults because they are similarly capable of understanding right and wrong.

If you choose not to believe, that's more than your right.

it's not about choice. it's about objective evidence that the biblical god is a human creation in the form of obvious moral contradictions staring me in the face. do you think your disbelief in santa is a matter of choice?

since the only framework of morality you have is based upon a) your own desires, or b) societal mores,

actually the moral framework i'm using to judge god's actions in the OT is reflected in jesus' teachings (although not original to them). the nature of god in the bible is one huge purely internal contradiction. of course that's because stories about the biblical god come from different times and reflect the different moral standards of those times.

And where are you getting these attributes of God?

from the bible.

 

[BrianFromWA]

It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of actions. Their actions are not "holy", therefore God (as stated in the Bible) cannot dwell with them forever, unless they have believed that Jesus took their punishment for them. Therefore, they go to hell (eternal separation from God). It doesn't matter if they don't conform to some understanding of right and wrong you think they may have. You're not the gatekeeper. God is.

Are you saying belief in Santa and belief in God are similar? If so, I can't continue this discussion rationally with you. To answer your question: yes. I saw my parents put packages out at Christmas and saw that there wasn't a fat guy that came down my chimney. I haven't been seen that the 6-day creation has been disproven (your discussion aside, for now), and I haven't seen evidences that God is a liar. It's actually easy for me: My faith in God is based upon the premises that a) everything He says in the Bible is true, and b) He will do for me what He promised in the Bible. I'm not unreasonable: Once either of those is proven wrong, then I will have no choice but to attempt to understand another reality. Amazingly enough, though, no one has. However, instead of faith in God like I have, others (such as yourself, it seems) place your faith in dubious scientists and their methods, secular philosophies, etc.

For instance, I'm excited to go see "Lucy" the fossil that'll be up here in Seattle soon. I personally don't believe she is 3.2 million years old, because I believe the earth is around 7000 years old. That won't stop me from going to see the fossil, but it also won't stop me (hopefully) from asking questions about her and her methods of dating, where she was found, why she isn't whole, why she doesn't have family around, etc. That kind of stuff fascinates me.

 

[BrianFromWA]

For more on the "attributes of God", by a guy who says it much better than I.

A spiritual and saving knowledge of God is the greatest need of every human creature. The foundation of all true knowledge of God must be a clear mental apprehension of His perfections as revealed in Holy Scripture. An unknown God can neither be trusted, served nor worshiped...Something more than a theoretical knowledge of God is needed by us. God is only truly known in the soul as we yield ourselves to Him, submit to His authority, and regulate all the details of our lives by His holy precepts and commandments.
A.W. Pink The Attributes of God pg. 7-8

http://www.amazon.com/Attributes-God-Arthur-W-Pink/dp/0801069890

Like I said, if you don't believe in this "mumbo-jumbo", I'm not trying to convince you. But you seem intelligent enough to realize that basing the foundation of your argument on a faulty knowledge of the subject isn't conducive to having a discussion or winning a point.

 

[rocketeer]

This cracked me up....now THAT glass is half full...lol geez

it's really not all that hard to understand and isn't really a "glass half full" type of thing.

if you believe in christianity, everyone who sins deserves to go to hell. and there isn't a person who hasn't sinned. so we all deserve to go to hell. so god chooses to allow those who have a personal relationship with him and ask for his forgiveness to get into heaven anyway.

 

[Minstrel]

It's actually easy for me: My faith in God is based upon the premises that a) everything He says in the Bible is true

What leads you to believe this premise? Why start with this premise? Why not start with the premise that the Hindu Vedas are true? Or that everything I say is true?

 

[BrianFromWA]

This isn't scientific, so I hesitate to say it, but it's the truth (for me, anyway). God gave it to me. I didn't get born with it. I didn't believe in it until I was 17.

What is effectual calling? (sorry for the Old English version, it was the easiest to copy and paste)
A: Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit,1 whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery,2 enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ,3 and renewing our wills,4 he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.5


1. 2 Timothy 1:8-9. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Ephesians 1:18-20. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.
2. Acts 2:37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
3. Acts 26:18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
4. Ezekiel 11:19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
5. John 6:44-45. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Ephesians 2:5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For one thing, as much as I enjoy talking to you Minstrel, I'm sure that if I got to know you I could at some point find somewhere where you were wrong, or lied, etc. It's human nature to do so. Once that happens, you can't claim "perfection".

I have not had a calling to believe in the Hindu Vedas.

 

[Minstrel]

For one thing, as much as I enjoy talking to you Minstrel, I'm sure that if I got to know you I could at some point find somewhere where you were wrong, or lied, etc. It's human nature to do so. Once that happens, you can't claim "perfection".

Well, but you don't get to know "God" either. You simply have to accept that it is "perfect" with no direct experience. With no direct experience with me, you'd similarly have no evidence that I am not perfect.

I have not had a calling to believe in the Hindu Vedas.

Fair enough. But what this means is, no one who hasn't heard the calling can be expected to believe in Christianity, right? Just as you won't accept on someone else's say-so that Hinduism is Truth or that I am Truth, why would anyone accept on your say-so, or a Christian minister's say-so, that Christianity is Truth?

So, what does that say about people who don't experience that "calling," in your mind? These are people God never chose to give a chance for salvation to? You are just one of the lucky ones he picked?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Well, but you don't get to know "God" either. You simply have to accept that it is "perfect" with no direct experience. With no direct experience with me, you'd similarly have no evidence that I am not perfect.

True statement, if I didn't believe that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Fair enough. But what this means is, no one who hasn't heard the calling can be expected to believe in Christianity, right? Just as you won't accept on someone else's say-so that Hinduism is Truth or that I am Truth, why would anyone accept on your say-so, or a Christian minister's say-so, that Christianity is Truth?

Exactly. I think I've been pretty clear that I'm not trying to change anyone's minds to follow me or Christ. I try to speak up when I see misconceptions, etc. I attempt not to do it in an inflammatory matter, b/c I believe that discussions like this are helpful. Even if you don't believe in the things I say, or think I'm stupid for believing them, you should know pretty well by now where I'm coming from. God is Truth. All I can do is be the deliverer of His Good News. If people choose not to listen, that's on them.

So, what does that say about people who don't experience that "calling," in your mind? These are people God never chose to give a chance for salvation to? You are just one of the lucky ones he picked?

You're stepping now into something that's pretty controversial for those that don't believe, or those that think they do but not every word. It's called predestination in general, and "effectual calling vs. reprobation" in specific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_(Calvinism) (for an overview) I believe in the sovereignty of God, and that He can do whatever He wants. I believe that the Bible says some won't be saved. But i have no idea who those are (and don't care), because my job is to tell people about Jesus and His death for us. Many don't like hearing that God deliberately chose not to save some. I can't speak for God on that. I can just relay what He says about it in the Bible, and what criticisms and responses have historically come from that.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of actions. Their actions are not "holy", therefore God (as stated in the Bible) cannot dwell with them forever, unless they have believed that Jesus took their punishment for them. Therefore, they go to hell (eternal separation from God). It doesn't matter if they don't conform to some understanding of right and wrong you think they may have. You're not the gatekeeper. God is.

Are you saying belief in Santa and belief in God are similar? If so, I can't continue this discussion rationally with you. To answer your question: yes. I saw my parents put packages out at Christmas and saw that there wasn't a fat guy that came down my chimney. I haven't been seen that the 6-day creation has been disproven (your discussion aside, for now), and I haven't seen evidences that God is a liar. It's actually easy for me: My faith in God is based upon the premises that a) everything He says in the Bible is true, and b) He will do for me what He promised in the Bible. I'm not unreasonable: Once either of those is proven wrong, then I will have no choice but to attempt to understand another reality. Amazingly enough, though, no one has. However, instead of faith in God like I have, others (such as yourself, it seems) place your faith in dubious scientists and their methods, secular philosophies, etc.

For instance, I'm excited to go see "Lucy" the fossil that'll be up here in Seattle soon. I personally don't believe she is 3.2 million years old, because I believe the earth is around 7000 years old. That won't stop me from going to see the fossil, but it also won't stop me (hopefully) from asking questions about her and her methods of dating, where she was found, why she isn't whole, why she doesn't have family around, etc. That kind of stuff fascinates me.

It is very important for you to understand that you are not having a rational discussion. In fact, in this subject you are incapable of having a rational discussion. It's very important that you recognize and admit that. No rational discussion can have a resurrection as it's foundation.

Christians are nothing more than older Mormons. Yet they hate each other so much. Of course most churches can't stand one another because their beliefs are so radically different.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Why can't a rational discussion have a resurrection as its foundation? And who is it "very important" for? You? I would submit that, of the two of us, I am attempting to be rational in my defense of what I believe and why. I'm trying very hard not to make generalities, attack other posters, or impose my beliefs on others. You're not going to change my mind about the attributes of God, even if you were a learned theologian, which it seems you're not. I'm not going to change your mind about God, b/c only He does that. What i'm trying to do is eliminate a bit of the misconception about what I believe to people who don't understand why I believe the way I do.

BTW: Mormons are by definition not Christians. To imply they are similar shows an ignorance of both Christian and Mormon doctrine.

Also: I don't "hate" anybody. Again, it seems like you're reaching in order to make this discussion contentious. Can you follow the examples of Crow and Minstrel to have a discussion without resorting to gross generalities, please?

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Pssst... the Bible doesn't say the snake in the garden was Satan. But Christians claim this is truth and if you don't belive it you will burn in hell every day forever. Hell isn't in the bible either, but that's not important. In fact nearly everything Christians believe can't be found in the bible. They just made it up.

Marriage as described by current hate-filled-Christians (one man, one woman) is FACTUALLY against the teachings of God and the bible. =

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Why can't a rational discussion have a resurrection as its foundation?

Really? Seriously? Do you really have to ask that?

Because it's physically impossible. It's exactly equal to trying to have a rational dicussion about SuperMan.

 

[rocketeer]

Pssst... the Bible doesn't say the snake in the garden was Satan. But Christians claim this is truth and if you don't belive it you will burn in hell every day forever. Hell isn't in the bible either, but that's not important. In fact nearly everything Christians believe can't be found in the bible. They just made it up.

Marriage as described by current hate-filled-Christians (one man, one woman) is FACTUALLY against the teachings of God and the bible. =

christians claim that if you don't believe that the snake in the garden was satan that you will burn in hell forever?

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

I'm not going to change your mind about God, b/c only He does that. What i'm trying to do is eliminate a bit of the misconception about what I believe to people who don't understand why I believe the way I do.

You don't understand the bible. You understand what someone told you to believe about the bible. If you chose to use your brain you'd see that pretty much everything you've been told isn't actually in the bible.

BTW: Mormons are by definition not Christians. To imply they are similar shows an ignorance of both Christian and Mormon doctrine.

You know that's funny you say that, because in fact Mormon's would say they are Christians and would likely say you weren't. Funny how each and every individual sect to come out Jesusism has their own opinion, claims only they are right, and their understanding of the bible is the only true and correct understanding and salvation only comes from that unique understanding.

Also: I don't "hate" anybody.

Actions speak louder than words. Although you're probably one of those Christians that chooses to ignore the book of James. Do you believe you should have more rights than another human simply because he's gay? If so you are filled with hate and, like pretty much all Christians, completely ignorant of the teachings and life of Jesus. Would Jesus vote against human rights? Christians would 100% of the time.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

christians claim that if you don't believe that the snake in the garden was satan that you will burn in hell forever?

Yes.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Pssst... the Bible doesn't say the snake in the garden was Satan. But Christians claim this is truth and if you don't belive it you will burn in hell every day forever. Hell isn't in the bible either, but that's not important. In fact nearly everything Christians believe can't be found in the bible. They just made it up.

Marriage as described by current hate-filled-Christians (one man, one woman) is FACTUALLY against the teachings of God and the bible. =

Wow...ok.

1) Revelation 12:9 (which is in the Bible) says it was. And it was a serpent, not a snake.
2) Bible-believing Christians (like me, for one) do claim it's the truth. But the other truths of the Bible are that you go to hell (which doesn't burn, I don't think---you're confusing Milton and Dante for God) only if you don't believe that Jesus took the punishment of your sins for you. Not if you think the serpent was something else.
3) Fine, marriage defined by hate-filled Christians may be what you say. I'm not one of those. I personally don't like the thought of gay "marriage", but I'm not gay. The bible is pretty quiet on the matter. It does, however, say a lot about male homosexuality (not so much about female versions).
4) The teachings of God and the Bible are one and the same.

 

[BrianFromWA]

DYM, I'm not sure I can keep writing to you about this. You seem filled with some kind of inner hate that's causing you to spout a lot of nonsense.

You don't know the first thing about what I know or don't know about the bible. To think you do is folly.
To not know very much about Biblical Christianity and then attempt to answer Rocketeer's question is ignorant. Please don't continue to opine about things you don't understand, if you don't mind. If you have questions, ask. Maybe I can point you in the direction you're looking for (as I've been doing for the last few posts)
You have little idea of what Mormons would say, or their reasons for doing so. You have more idea of what I would say (b/c I've been telling you), but choose not to listen to it. To do so is folly.
Please don't attempt to understand my thoughts on homosexuals in a way that fits your twisted worldview. If you'd like to know, ask. If not, don't project on me. To do so is folly.

Would Jesus vote against human rights? Christians would 100% of the time.

Read whatever you can about William Wilberforce. That's just one. So we're down to 99.99999999% or so. Again, you're now either wrong or a liar. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I think it's just "confused attention-seeker". That's ok.

 

[crowTrobot]

It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of actions. Their actions are not "holy", therefore God (as stated in the Bible) cannot dwell with them forever, unless they have believed that Jesus took their punishment for them. Therefore, they go to hell (eternal separation from God). It doesn't matter if they don't conform to some understanding of right and wrong you think they may have. You're not the gatekeeper. God is.

spouting cult-speak christian dogma just makes my point for me.

Are you saying belief in Santa and belief in God are similar?

not god in the generic sense, no. but your belief in the literal historicity of the OT closely parallels a child's belief in santa. both are delusions brought on entirely by upbringing and/or other traditional cultural influences, and both have been scientifically disproven on equal grounds.

I haven't been seen that the 6-day creation has been disproven (your discussion aside, for now)

the earth is ~4.5 billion years old and humans evolved from previously existing species. there is mountains of objective supporting evidence for those things, all trasparent and publicly available, and the majority of educated people world-wide accept them as fact. to reject them on grounds of religious dogma is just stubbord and egocentric.

It's actually easy for me: My faith in God is based upon the premises that a) everything He says in the Bible is true

how is that not circular lol?

I'm not unreasonable: Once either of those is proven wrong, then I will have no choice but to attempt to understand another reality. Amazingly enough, though, no one has.

your reasons for belief don't seem to require objective evidence, so how could somebody possibly disprove your belief to you?

However, instead of faith in God like I have, others (such as yourself, it seems) place your faith in dubious scientists and their methods, secular philosophies, etc.

science is the LEAST dubious method humans have ever invented for determining truth of a practical objective nature about anything. it has no intrinsic goal, makes no absolute statements, and is entirely self-policing. scientific truth is the opposite of faith-based "truth".

not sure what you mean by secular philosophies. most people's reasons for disbelief in the bible have little to do with philosophy.

 

[Minstrel]

Many don't like hearing that God deliberately chose not to save some.

I don't mind hearing it, it just seems capricious and not rational or in keeping with the concepts of love, compassion and wisdom that are generally ascribed by Christians to god. If there were a god, I feel pretty sure it would be rational.

The entire system of creating a sinful species, wanting to wipe them out for being exactly as created, wiping out their sin (through Jesus Christ) but only for those who believe in an entity that chooses to provide no evidence...the whole thing seems amazingly random and irrational.

If it were true, it only leads to a conclusion that god wants to see, and reward those, who will act randomly and punish those who won't.

I can just relay what He says about it in the Bible

Why relay "the message" when you agree with me that no one, including you, will or should believe in a god without an experiential calling? Why would a god want you to relay word when it's created a species that tends not to believe unless they experience something directly?

Doesn't all this seem a tad contradictory? Does god discourage use of rationality, that it supposedly endowed us with?

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Wow...ok.

1) Revelation 12:9 (which is in the Bible) says it was. And it was a serpent, not a snake.

It absolutely does not. That in fact is your interpretation.

2) Bible-believing Christians (like me, for one) do claim it's the truth. But the other truths of the Bible are that you go to hell (which doesn't burn, I don't think---you're confusing Milton and Dante for God) only if you don't believe that Jesus took the punishment of your sins for you. Not if you think the serpent was something else.

Nope, this comes from the mouths of Christians, just as convinced as you are

3) Fine, marriage defined by hate-filled Christians may be what you say. I'm not one of those. I personally don't like the thought of gay "marriage", but I'm not gay. The bible is pretty quiet on the matter. It does, however, say a lot about male homosexuality (not so much about female versions).

The book of the bible that is used by hate-filled-Christians against homosexuals says far more about your diet and woman's vagina blood than it does about homosexuality. Of course hate-filled-Christians claim all those other things don't matter, it was part of Jesus' New Deal, but somehow homosexuality is still the worst thing in the world. It's no longer eating grapes, which that books claims as an unholy evil.

4) The teachings of God and the Bible are one and the same.

That's your individual interpretation.

 

[BrianFromWA]

spouting cult-speak christian dogma just makes my point for me.



not god in the generic sense, no. but your belief in the literal historicity of the OT closely parallels a child's belief in santa. both are delusions brought on entirely by upbringing and/or other traditional cultural influences, and both have been scientifically disproven on equal grounds.

I thought I just got through talking about effectual calling. No cultural influence did it. I didn't grow up in church. I didn't have religious parents. Most people I knew then didn't believe in Christ. How can you say it's the same as Santa, when it's clearly not?

the earth is ~4.5 billion years old and humans evolved from previously existing species. there is mountains of objective supporting evidence for those things, all trasparent and publicly available, and the majority of educated people world-wide accept them as fact. to reject them on grounds of religious dogma is just stubbord and egocentric.

Most educated scientists in the 1920's believed in the Plum Pudding Model of the Atom, because it was the best they could come up with at the time. It was taught in schools. Most educated people in the world believe Al Gore's version of "Global Warming". I don't. Not because religious dogma says so, but b/c evidence doesn't support it. When I get home, I'll repost with some other "transparent and available evidence" to show why isn't not stubbornness backing dogma.

how is that not circular lol?

The genesis of my faith wasn't believing the Bible. The genesis of my faith was God. Learning through study, discipleship and continual questioning got me to where I am today, and that's nowhere near where I'll be later.

your reasons for belief don't seem to require objective evidence, so how could somebody possibly disprove your belief to you?

It would be hard, I agree.

science is the LEAST dubious method humans have ever invented for determining truth of a practical objective nature about anything. it has no intrinsic goal, makes no absolute statements, and is entirely self-policing. scientific truth is the opposite of faith-based "truth".

I agree, except that science has a VERY stringent requirement for "truth", which hasn't come close to being reached by very much in our world. Even things like Gravity, which are "true" in 99% of cases, aren't in fact "true". That's why they're still called "theories".

not sure what you mean by secular philosophies. most people's reasons for disbelief in the bible have little to do with philosophy.

I can't speak for most. My disbelief in the bible had to do with the fact that I didn't want to have some God be the Lord of my life, and didn't want to believe that me being a good boy wasn't good enough to get to heaven.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

DYM, I'm not sure I can keep writing to you about this. You seem filled with some kind of inner hate that's causing you to spout a lot of nonsense.

Is that what Jesus would say to me?

You don't know the first thing about what I know or don't know about the bible. To think you do is folly.

EVERYBODY LOOK, THIS IS WHAT A HYPOCRITICAL CHRISTIAN LOOKS LIKE!!!

To not know very much about Biblical Christianity and then attempt to answer Rocketeer's question is ignorant. Please don't continue to opine about things you don't understand, if you don't mind.

If you were just a normal person you could get away with this. But no, you choose to claim holiness. You choose to claim a spot above others. You say sinners should live like you. Yet here you show the evil within you. You show your disbelief. You show that your faith is nothing but a front. You are every bit the stereotypical hypocrite.

I shall not dare challenge your knowledge of the bible, but your claim to know with certainty my knowledge of the bible. Wow. What a hateful example you show. Thank you for showing me Christ through you.

 

[crowTrobot]

You're stepping now into something that's pretty controversial for those that don't believe, or those that think they do but not every word. It's called predestination in general, and "effectual calling vs. reprobation" in specific. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_(Calvinism) (for an overview) I believe in the sovereignty of God, and that He can do whatever He wants. I believe that the Bible says some won't be saved. But i have no idea who those are (and don't care), because my job is to tell people about Jesus and His death for us. Many don't like hearing that God deliberately chose not to save some. I can't speak for God on that. I can just relay what He says about it in the Bible, and what criticisms and responses have historically come from that.

what's your explanation for religious demographics? god hates people from the eastern hemisphere?

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

If you have questions, ask. Maybe I can point you in the direction you're looking for (as I've been doing for the last few posts)
You have little idea of what Mormons would say, or their reasons for doing so. You have more idea of what I would say (b/c I've been telling you), but choose not to listen to it. To do so is folly.
Please don't attempt to understand my thoughts on homosexuals in a way that fits your twisted worldview. If you'd like to know, ask. If not, don't project on me. To do so is folly.

Read whatever you can about William Wilberforce. That's just one. So we're down to 99.99999999% or so. Again, you're now either wrong or a liar. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I think it's just "confused attention-seeker". That's ok.

Seriously, this is 1000% ARROGANCE. You've been exposed. You're Christianity is a fraud. Admit it, your faith is a fraud. Admit it. admit it, you know it's true.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

what's your explanation for religious demographics? god hates people from the eastern hemisphere?

God hates people he hasn't had his people kill yet. That's what the spreading of Christianity comes down to. Plain and simple, you were killed or tortured and killed or converted. That's why Christians hate Muslims so much. It reminds people of how the Christians came to be.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I don't mind hearing it, it just seems capricious and not rational or in keeping with the concepts of love, compassion and wisdom that are generally ascribed by Christians to god. If there were a god, I feel pretty sure it would be rational.

I keep saying, to say things 'generally ascribed by Christians' can be misleading. Don't look at humans...look to the Bible. I mean, if you asked people who call themselved "republicans" to tell you the tenets and philosophies of the Republican party, would you expect that all would answer them 100% correctly? The great part about the Bible is that it's all there. I can't explain it. I can't second-guess God. He's God. The best I can say is to refer you to Isaiah 55:8-9 and Ezekiel 18:30 (which, to be fair, was spoken in response to the House of Israel).

Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,' says the Lord God.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

The entire system of creating a sinful species, wanting to wipe them out for being exactly as created, wiping out their sin (through Jesus Christ) but only for those who believe in an entity that chooses to provide no evidence...the whole thing seems amazingly random and irrational.
If it were true, it only leads to a conclusion that god wants to see, and reward those, who will act randomly and punish those who won't.

I don't know if that's the only conclusion. But I refer you to the above. I can't answer that question for you.

Why relay "the message" when you agree with me that no one, including you, will or should believe in a god without an experiential calling? Why would a god want you to relay word when it's created a species that tends not to believe unless they experience something directly?

Doesn't all this seem a tad contradictory? Does god discourage use of rationality, that it supposedly endowed us with?

Can't explain it, except to say that that's what I was told to do. There are theories why believers are told to do that, but God doesn't need us.