hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

[BrianFromWA]

what's your explanation for religious demographics? god hates people from the eastern hemisphere?

To be completely honest, I don't think about it much. I know that a large missionary movement has been going on for the last couple of centuries to bring the Gospel to those who may not have heard it, whether b/c of political reasons, etc. God hates sin (many OT verses, be it in Leviticus, Psalms, Proverbs, Micah, etc.). But in 1John it says that "He is Love". That's (IMO, not "truth") why sinners earn eternal separation from His presence, but those who believe Jesus died for their sins are now righteous in God's eyes.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

I can't second-guess God. He's God.

And thus, the core problem of Christians and Christianity is summed up perfectly by BFW.

 

[BrianFromWA]

God hates people he hasn't had his people kill yet. That's what the spreading of Christianity comes down to. Plain and simple, you were killed or tortured and killed or converted. That's why Christians hate Muslims so much. It reminds people of how the Christians came to be.

This is probably the closest you've come to rationality yet. God hates sin and can't stand to be in the presence of sinners. Those who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins are not subject to that hatred.

I don't hate Muslims. I'm a Christian. Once again, you're wrong, lying, or exaggerating.

 

[BrianFromWA]

And thus, the core problem of Christians and Christianity is summed up perfectly by BFW.

It's true, that if you think it's a core problem. But who would you put your trust in? Do you trust your politicians to be perfect? Do you trust your teachers, or your doctors? I mean, if you're going to say that I shouldn't believe in God, or think that His ways are higher than mine, who do you believe?

 

[barfo]

It's true, that if you think it's a core problem. But who would you put your trust in? Do you trust your politicians to be perfect? Do you trust your teachers, or your doctors? I mean, if you're going to say that I shouldn't believe in God, or think that His ways are higher than mine, who do you believe?

Why does one need to believe in something or someone?

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

God hates sin and can't stand to be in the presence of sinners.

Yet, god created mankind as sinners. Why? Doesn't that seem a bit schizophrenic?

Those who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins are not subject to that hatred.

Didn't Jesus die to expiate the "original sin" of all people? Why should belief in Christ matter?

And isn't encouraging belief in Christ over actually being a good person actually working against god's own hatred of sin? It seems god hates non-believers more than it hates sin and sinners, doesn't it?

 

[crowTrobot]

I thought I just got through talking about effectual calling. No cultural influence did it. I didn't grow up in church. I didn't have religious parents. Most people I knew then didn't believe in Christ. How can you say it's the same as Santa, when it's clearly not?

you weren't called to believe the earth is 7000 years old. a literal interpretation of genesis is obviously the result of cultural/peer influence. that's what i'm equating to belief in santa.

if you were called to christianity in general entirely without cultural influence good for you, but you're in a very small minority. religious demographics is all the evidence necessary to demonstrate that religious belief stems entirely from cutlural influence for most people.

Most educated scientists in the 1920's believed in the Plum Pudding Model of the Atom

wrong. by 1920 most scientists working in related fields believed it was false, and no scientist ever believed it was demonstratable fact. sounds like creationist anti-science propaganda.

Most educated people in the world believe Al Gore's version of "Global Warming".

you mean most non-scientists going on media hype believed it. science in general was much more pragmatic and there was never any scientific concensus any scientist would refer to as factual on the level of evolution or the age of the earth. still isn't.

the age of the earth and evolution are not the "best thing we have to go by at this time". they are practical truths supported by evidence so compelling that it's no different than the evidence that leads us to believe the earth revolves around the sun.

I agree, except that science has a VERY stringent requirement for "truth", which hasn't come close to being reached by very much in our world. Even things like Gravity, which are "true" in 99% of cases, aren't in fact "true". That's why they're still called "theories".

not sure what the hell you're talking about with gravity, but a 4.5 billion year old earth has reached all reasonable requirements for scientific truth, as has that evolution occured.

I can't speak for most. My disbelief in the bible had to do with the fact that I didn't want to have some God be the Lord of my life, and didn't want to believe that me being a good boy wasn't good enough to get to heaven.

at some point in their lives most people end up being more mature than that in their reasoning.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

This is probably the closest you've come to rationality yet. God hates sin and can't stand to be in the presence of sinners. Those who believe in Christ and that He died for our sins are not subject to that hatred.

You have a misunderstanding of what rationality is. I was talking about history, you're using your imagination to create some sort of metaphor between recent history and stories from the bible.

I don't hate Muslims. I'm a Christian. Once again, you're wrong, lying, or exaggerating.

You're thinking in black and white, I'm thinking in color.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

It's true, that if you think it's a core problem. But who would you put your trust in? Do you trust your politicians to be perfect? Do you trust your teachers, or your doctors? I mean, if you're going to say that I shouldn't believe in God, or think that His ways are higher than mine, who do you believe?

Like Jesus said: Believe in me.

I believe in me.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Yet, god created mankind as sinners. Why? Doesn't that seem a bit schizophrenic?

Well, Adam and Eve weren't created as sinners, they were created in the image of God. Then they sinned. My belief is that God knew it was coming, and already had the redemptive plan (using Jesus) set up. I don't know why.

Didn't Jesus die to expiate the "original sin" of all people? Why should belief in Christ matter?

And isn't encouraging belief in Christ over actually being a good person actually working against god's own hatred of sin? It seems god hates non-believers more than it hates sin and sinners, doesn't it?

The Bible says

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

You have to acknowledge that He is who He says He is, and that He did what He says He did, to be saved. I don't know why, but that's it.

It's one and the same for God. Salvation is just a step in the process. Predestined, called, justified sanctified, glorified. It's a process. If you're predestined, God will call you. He will then justify you (accept that Jesus' death covered your sins), and then start you on the path to sanctification. When we die, we'll be glorified with him in heaven. So says Romans, anyway.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Crow, I'll have to get back to you on that.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Well, Adam and Eve weren't created as sinners, they were created in the image of God. Then they sinned. My belief is that God knew it was coming, and already had the redemptive plan (using Jesus) set up.

So what happened to the people between the old testament and Jesus? And not your theological opinion, but your belief based on the bible itself.

But of course the more obvious question is what does Adam and/or Eve allegedly sinning have to do with me? The sinned so that automatically makes me and every other unborn fetus a sinner? That's your god? That's your buddy?

I don't know why.

And yet you refuse to question because that's what you believe god said it and you can't question god.

Look at yourself. That is irrational behavior for a human being. A rational human being will question things it does not know because that is what we know to be human nature. Is it true? Do you really not question that? Or are you just saying you don't question it and are afraid of showing doubt by being true and saying you doubt it.

You have to acknowledge that He is who He says He is, and that He did what He says He did, to be saved.

WHY? Why do I have to acknowledge that?

It's one and the same for God. Salvation is just a step in the process. Predestined, called, justified sanctified, glorified. It's a process. If you're predestined, God will call you. He will then justify you (accept that Jesus' death covered your sins), and then start you on the path to sanctification. When we die, we'll be glorified with him in heaven. So says Romans, anyway.

Even among Christians your expressed beliefs are a rare combination (assuming you attempt to look outside of the scope of Vancouver, Wa and it's hickburbs). You're expressing a mix of random theologians mixed into one simple philosophy that works perfectly for YOU. You've expressed little of the bible, mostly regurgitated theology.

 

[Minstrel]

Well, Adam and Eve weren't created as sinners, they were created in the image of God. Then they sinned. My belief is that God knew it was coming, and already had the redemptive plan (using Jesus) set up.

The point is, in your belief, god created humans as creatures who would sin, by nature (as you basically acknowledge by saying "god saw it coming"). Why would it do this, if it hates sin and sinners so much?

I don't know why.

I don't know why, but that's it.

You don't know. That's fine. The point is, Christianity is fraught with this sort of irrationality, to which believers have to, implicitly or explicitly, agree that it's irrational but have faith anyway.

This is why I'm quite sure that "god," as conceived of by organized religion, is non-existent. There's no internal consistency or rational thread that would be expected from an order that comes from one entity. The inconsistency and irrationality perfectly fits the idea that a series of humans wrote it, at different times, with different worldviews.

Also the claim that "We mortals cannot hope to understand God's plan" doesn't really wash. Unless "God" is supremely unintelligent, it realizes that we humans only have our (God-given?) rationality by which to guide us, and would work in ways that can be understood by that rationality.

Instead we get "God hates sinners" and "God created mankind with sinful natures." And "God hates sin" but "Belief in Christ matters more than doing good."

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't mind hearing it, it just seems capricious and not rational or in keeping with the concepts of love, compassion and wisdom that are generally ascribed by Christians to god. If there were a god, I feel pretty sure it would be rational.

This seems like a strawman to me. God is a harsh and vindictive one. Jesus as a man was those things you say are ascribed to God. As a man, he set the moral standards that are almost universally accepted by civilized people as proper (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, do unto others, etc.).

What I'm surprised nobody has said yet is that God gave man Free Will - to live up to those moral standards or not. This is why he'd allow a Hitler to do his worst, and why everyone sins at some point.

Another thing that is barely touched upon in this thread is that Faith is not rational, it is a blind belief no matter what the evidence is to the contrary. In fact, evidence to the contrary is merely there to test one's faith. You can't argue reason against it, it's apples and oranges. Besides, absolutely anything you can actually see and touch and think about could trivially and effectively be argued as a sign that God does exist.

 

[Minstrel]

This seems like a strawman to me. God is a harsh and vindictive one. Jesus as a man was those things you say are ascribed to God.

God often has Infinite Mercy, Infinite Compassion, etc, ascribed to him, by Christians, including ministers.

It's not a strawman, but it can be a question of different Christians believing different things.

What I'm surprised nobody has said yet is that God gave man Free Will

I've never found that compelling. God has free will, and yet is perfect. Clearly, having free will and being perfect are not irreconcilable.

Besides, absolutely anything you can actually see and touch and think about could trivially and effectively be argued as a sign that God does exist.

It can also be trivially and effectively (if by "effectively" you mean impossible to disprove) attributed to me. Or invisible elves.

 

[Denny Crane]

God often has Infinite Mercy, Infinite Compassion, etc, ascribed to him, by Christians, including ministers.

It's not a strawman, but it can be a question of different Christians believing different things.

He is those things, too, but more of an "in the end" kind of way.

I've never found that compelling. God has free will, and yet is perfect. Clearly, having free will and being perfect are not irreconcilable.

Use your Reason man!

The greek epics were about a very different (mulitple gods) kind of religion. Those depicted the gods as rather immature and more human than human. The actual humans? They were the most virtuous any human could possibly be.

The Bible is full of war and killing and punishments. If one were to truly take lessons from it, we'd have killed every last man, woman, and child in Iraq and taken everything as spoils. That's what the victors did in the biblical stories.

 

[DaRizzle]

If god exists may god strike...you dead
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Joe Pesci is god

 

[Minstrel]

The greek epics were about a very different (mulitple gods) kind of religion. Those depicted the gods as rather immature and more human than human. The actual humans? They were the most virtuous any human could possibly be.

The Bible is full of war and killing and punishments. If one were to truly take lessons from it, we'd have killed every last man, woman, and child in Iraq and taken everything as spoils. That's what the victors did in the biblical stories.

I'm not sure what this has to do with free will.

In any case, Christians tend to disown the Old Testament. At least, the parts they don't care for. I don't see many Christians obeying the laws set out in Leviticus. The slaughters and pillaging of the Old Testament are no longer compatible with the conception of God that I generally see Christians put forth, and thus they are de-emphasized or said to be out of date.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not sure what this has to do with free will.

In any case, Christians tend to disown the Old Testament. At least, the parts they don't care for. I don't see many Christians obeying the laws set out in Leviticus. The slaughters and pillaging of the Old Testament are no longer compatible with the conception of God that I generally see Christians put forth, and thus they are de-emphasized or said to be out of date.

I don't think any of this is right.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

This seems like a strawman to me.

Provide your definition of strawman then.

What I'm surprised nobody has said yet is that God gave man Free Will

That is a big debate among Christians and a theology only some sects of Christianity chose to believe

Another thing that is barely touched upon in this thread is that Faith is not rational, it is a blind belief

I've touched upon this plenty and have been contradicted by BFW, a Christian.

You can't argue reason against it

You certainly can. It's unreasonable to think you can't. What you can't do is defend faith with reason. I think that's what you were getting at.

Besides, absolutely anything you can actually see and touch and think about could trivially and effectively be argued as a sign that God does exist.

Trivially and effectively? That's incorrect. They could irrationally be argued, but not much else. So can SuperMan.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think any of this is right.

Seems right to me. Christians often claim that Jesus Christ created a new covenant between God and mankind, and the New Testament replaces or supercedes the Old Testament. Do you see the rules of Leviticus followed or held as ideals to follow by most Christians?

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Seems right to me. Christians often claim that Jesus Christ created a new covenant between God and mankind, and the New Testament replaces or supercedes the Old Testament. Do you see the rules of Leviticus followed or held as ideals to follow by most Christians?

Only the one about homosexuality. It's a few lines long, but the entire book is history and no longer required by Christians... except that one bit about homosexuality.

 

[Denny Crane]

Seems right to me. Christians often claim that Jesus Christ created a new covenant between God and mankind, and the New Testament replaces or supercedes the Old Testament. Do you see the rules of Leviticus followed or held as ideals to follow by most Christians?

Quite a bit of it, but moreso Deuteronomy.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

Quite a bit of it, but moreso Deuteronomy.

I doubt you believe 10% of it applies to humanity today.

 

[Minstrel]

Quite a bit of it, but moreso Deuteronomy.

Well, we've had very different experiences with Christians, then. Virtually every Christian I've spoken to either has no idea what's involved in Leviticus or claims that it's not relevant anymore.

 

[Minstrel]

Only the one about homosexuality. It's a few lines long, but the entire book is history and no longer required by Christians... except that one bit about homosexuality.

Heh, the funny thing is that many Christians say the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, but don't realize it comes from Leviticus, a system of rules that they don't adhere to.

 

[MARIS61]

The Bible is full of war and killing and punishments. If one were to truly take lessons from it, we'd have killed every last man, woman, and child in Iraq and taken everything as spoils. That's what the victors did in the biblical stories.

Bush/Cheney certainly tried, but these things take time.

Thank GOD for Presidential term limits!

 

[barfo]

Heh, the funny thing is that many Christians say the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, but don't realize it comes from Leviticus, a system of rules that they don't adhere to.

Lots of good stuff in Leviticus. Shame more people don't live by the Bible.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I doubt you believe 10% of it applies to humanity today.

Sure it does.

I see significant portions of it in common law, US law, and modern philosophy, the civil rights movement, govt. policies, and more.

 

[crowTrobot]

Heh, the funny thing is that many Christians say the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, but don't realize it comes from Leviticus

dunno if it's just leviticus. i've heard a lot of christians refer to paul in romans 1 on the subject.