OT Hard to have a debate when the information is being skewed

[H.C.]

Keep digging.

Dude, I don't have to research anything.
I asked you to clarify your statement because it sounded like you were blaming school shootings on gang violence.
If you can't see how I was giving YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIX YOUR STATEMENT.
Then I see no reason to click anything or read anything else you type.

 

[MarAzul]

I would have made a good doctor on that side, not queasy about trauma or blood

Keep up the good work river.

 

[calvin natt]

The rest of the world has school shootings. And stabbings, bombings, acid-throwings...

Ur right. Fuck it. Let’s do nothing.

 

[BrianFromWA]

We spent $598 billion on our military in 2015.

If that's defense spending, maybe we should use some of that "defense" to protect our schools?

Your Constitution doesn't let me.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Media attention. Stop covering the school shootings for let’s say three years and i guarantee you it slows way down. But in the meantime I want gun reform.

Sadly, I don't think the media will ever stop, and those shootings continue to get the attention that these people are looking for. We still talk about Columbine, we still talk about Sandy Hook, we still talk about Aurora. I don't remember the names of the shooters, but I remember the names of the schools.

I'm not positive of that, Calvin Natt, b/c I rarely hear about shootings in Compton, South Side of CHI, Baltimore, etc...though I know they still happen.
Nate, the media has stopped with a lot of their coverage. There's an agenda to having school shootings on the news, and why they want to keep bombarding you with it.

 

[barfo]

I'm not positive of that, Calvin Natt, b/c I rarely hear about shootings in Compton, South Side of CHI, Baltimore, etc...though I know they still happen.
Nate, the media has stopped with a lot of their coverage. There's an agenda to having school shootings on the news, and why they want to keep bombarding you with it.

That sounds a little conspiratorial. I think it is simpler than that. School shootings, people think "that could have been my kid!". Gangland shootings, most people think "my kid is a good kid and not a gangbanger". So the TV audience is more interested in school shootings, and that drives the coverage.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Your Constitution doesn't let me.

Ha! I wanted to just like that post, but dang, I just can't keep likin your posts.
I just said, quit liking Brian's posts! It will cost him credits.

What is the phrase of that restriction? Posse something?

 

[barfo]

Ha! I wanted to just just like that post, but dang, I just can't keep likin your posts.
I just said, quit liking Brian's posts! It will cost him credits.

What is the phrase of that restriction? Posse something?

I think it was "grab em by the posse"

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

Ha! I wanted to just just like that post, but dang, I just can't keep likin your posts.
I just said, quit liking Brian's posts! It will cost him credits.

What is the phrase of that restriction? Posse something?

Posse comitatus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Military members who assisted in stopping crimes or acting like policemen in general during Katrina and in Alabama in 2009 (in the wiki article above) got in trouble because the military is not supposed to perform any law enforcement duties in the US:

it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonmen

 

[MarAzul]

I think it was "grab em by the posse"

barfo

No barf, wrong again it was the Comitatus.
Can you check the spelling for me, I get a red line.

 

[calvin natt]

I'm not positive of that, Calvin Natt, b/c I rarely hear about shootings in Compton, South Side of CHI, Baltimore, etc...though I know they still happen.
Nate, the media has stopped with a lot of their coverage. There's an agenda to having school shootings on the news, and why they want to keep bombarding you with it.

Mass school shootings. Not the Chicago Baltimore stuff.

 

[riverman]

Your Constitution doesn't let me.

more than likely, your school budget won't let you....

 

[BrianFromWA]

more than likely, your school budget won't let you....

No, posse comitatus is the law (stated above). And the DoD Directives for "gun-free zones" were quoted in the other thread. Literally cannot be done with today's laws.

To your school budget point, I would humbly submit that, with 300M or so guns in America, we don't need to buy every teacher one. I think just removing the "gun-free zone" limitations would go a long way. If you were Nicolas Cruz and weren't sure who was armed and who wasn't, rather than knowing that no one was armed...? But even if we did, would a small tax on sports boosters and revenue and fundraisers more than cover the costs of outfitting, licensing and training people if, for whatever reason, you didn't want Coach Smith carrying his own weapon around all day?

I was the HS Treasurer in 1994 and know how much money was coming through the school's coffers. Maybe it's gone up or down a bit since then, but I know the ROM. And I know how much Glocks, AR-15s, PPKs, and other weapons cost. And I'm positive that you guys aren't telling me that we can't protect kids in schools because it's too expensive--there's some other philosophy at work (not good or bad, just different, like your Taipei example).

 

[riverman]

And I'm positive that you guys aren't telling me that we can't protect kids in schools because it's too expensive--

In Oregon they can barely keep a full school year funded as it is...I'm telling you that schools are struggling to fund educational programs let alone security...and for most of my life...it just simply wasn't necessary to guard schools, movie theaters, churches, discos, etc.....I just simply don't think our weapons policies are working here in the states. I don't think guns stop gun problems in civilian institutions....banks have armed guards and still get robbed

 

[Denny Crane]

Make that 19

It really does hit the OP point about hard to have a debate when the information is being skewed.

 

[riverman]

It really does hit the OP point about hard to have a debate when the information is being skewed.

I think what goes missing is having a conversation about a subject that doesn't require debating the subject but rather addressing it ...we all are guided by whatever information out there supports our views and values....would be refreshing to discuss gun control for example without being constantly confronted for one's ideals....brian is really good and having the conversation without disregarding the views of others...most here are not though...personally I don't think the media has a conspiracy to report a high school massacre just to prop up an anti gun agenda.....all tragedies of that magnitude get ink...always have. I'm sick of the #fakenews defense...would rather hear people's own logic in discussions rather than partisan name calling. When I worked in communications during the Nixon regime....official news was skewed all the time...anything that made Nixon look better was the rule of the propaganda..like we're winning the war....

 

[DaLincolnJones]

In Oregon they can barely keep a full school year funded as it is...I'm telling you that schools are struggling to fund educational programs let alone security...and for most of my life...it just simply wasn't necessary to guard schools, movie theaters, churches, discos, etc.....I just simply don't think our weapons policies are working here in the states. I don't think guns stop gun problems in civilian institutions....banks have armed guards and still get robbed

I hear this all the time, not enough money. I know for fact that the Corvallis school board, three years ago, had a budget of 12700 per child. I know they sold a property that the board had agreed upon for roughly 500K that had a value of 1.75M. When the board started getting heat, they had the local tax assessor come and change the official value to what they sold it for.

That year before they had a 300K balance in their budget, so the board voted to buy Ipads for students, against the advice of other districts that gave evidence that the product was easy to hack and the kids would easily have access to porn etc. In fact before they made the purchase an local IT guy showed the board how easy it was to hack. Still they spent the excess balance on the pad, and signed a 1.3 million service contract with the provider.

In both instances local citizens tried to hold the board accountable, and in both cases there was no law that stated that the school board had to put excess properties up for bid like the state, or had to show a program valid

With this type of waste, we could easily pay for securing our schools. Lock them down, and make sure access was checked through like any sporting event, concert or access to government officials

 

[calvin natt]

I hear this all the time, not enough money. I know for fact that the Corvallis school board, three years ago, had a budget of 12700 per child. I know they sold a property that the board had agreed upon for roughly 500K that had a value of 1.75M. When the board started getting heat, they had the local tax assessor come and change the official value to what they sold it for.

That year before they had a 300K balance in their budget, so the board voted to buy Ipads for students, against the advice of other districts that gave evidence that the product was easy to hack and the kids would easily have access to porn etc. In fact before they made the purchase an local IT guy showed the board how easy it was to hack. Still they spent the excess balance on the pad, and signed a 1.3 million service contract with the provider.

In both instances local citizens tried to hold the board accountable, and in both cases there was no law that stated that the school board had to put excess properties up for bid like the state, or had to show a program valid

With this type of waste, we could easily pay for securing our schools. Lock them down, and make sure access was checked through like any sporting event, concert or access to government officials

I don’t doubt any of this. So much waste. My mother in law works for a school district and the stories of even just small amounts of literal waste of funds is infuriating. But until we get a grip on waste there really isn’t money. There could be - but there isn’t.

 

[Denny Crane]

Okay. So why hasn't the war on drugs worked?

According to this article, we have spent $1 trillion dollars on the War on Drugs.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/branson-end-war-on-drugs/index.html

We outlawed the drugs. We convict people who use and/or sell drugs.

Has that effort not worked because we just "didn't want to very badly?"

The war on drugs may have cut usage in half. Is that a success? Probably at least to a degree. Was it money well spent? I think not at all.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I don’t doubt any of this. So much waste. My mother in law works for a school district and the stories of even just small amounts of literal waste of funds is infuriating. But until we get a grip on waste there really isn’t money. There could be - but there isn’t.

Here is the deal. There is money. The problem is that the system is set that you only get what you spend, plus any budget increase. Had the district not spent the 300K, they would have lost it for the next year.

 

[Denny Crane]

The rest of the world has school shootings. And stabbings, bombings, acid-throwings...

Duh. If a comedian didn't post this fact on twitter, it isn't known by some people.

 

[riverman]

Here is the deal. There is money. The problem is that the system is set that you only get what you spend, plus any budget increase. Had the district not spent the 300K, they would have lost it for the next year.

If our students don't learn to use computers or have that technology available...we're not keeping up with the demands of their education...investing in technological educational tools is investing in a more competitive America....we lag behind the world in engineering and math as it is. You want to gut some school budgets.....sports gets more than it's fair share of money. Start there.

 

[Denny Crane]

If our students don't learn to use computers or have that technology available...we're not keeping up with the demands of their education...investing in technological educational tools is investing in a more competitive America....we lag behind the world in engineering and math as it is. You want to gut some school budgets.....sports gets more than it's fair share of money. Start there.

I came really close to running for school board in the San Jose area in the 1980s. The town I lived in had 3 schools. 2/3 of the population (or school kids) were hispanic and spoke spanish at home. The schools spent a fortune teaching them english, when they could have just had 2 of the schools teach in spanish and teach english as a 2nd language (you know, like my french class in high school). The parents were pretty upset. The district had $1M+ in its "capital" budget that they wouldn't (or weren't allowed to) spend on a new library and computer lab. Instead, they let the state come along at the end of the year and "sweep" that money away, never to be used for the children's benefit.

Wouldn't have been like that at a private school, or even a non-government public school.

The obvious truth is that you can teach kids math in spanish. You can teach them science, and art, and music in spanish, too.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

If our students don't learn to use computers or have that technology available...we're not keeping up with the demands of their education...investing in technological educational tools is investing in a more competitive America....we lag behind the world in engineering and math as it is. You want to gut some school budgets.....sports gets more than it's fair share of money. Start there.

Come on, bud. You claim to know Corvallis. One of the more affluent cities in the state. Also on of the most closed minded. The IPad had less functions than the kids phones. There was a 98% computer access in the district. The other two percent were parents that did not allow their child to pound on a keyboard day and night.

Even those few families that were in dire straights had computer access. There is also a computer lab available to every student on campus . The IPads were complete and utter waste.

 

[riverman]

Come on, bud. You claim to know Corvallis. One of the more affluent cities in the state. Also on of the most closed minded. The IPad had less functions than the kids phones. There was a 98% computer access in the district. The other two percent were parents that did not allow their child to pound on a keyboard day and night.

Even those few families that were in dire straights had computer access. There is also a computer lab available to every student on campus . The IPads were complete and utter waste.

you could very well be right about waste....I only know OSU when it comes to Corvalis...love the town...restaurants and music stores....no contact with their public school system or board...my son went to OSU for 4 years...my sentiments are general about education and investment in education...in Lane County our library provided some laptops and Ipads for checkout...free to students. I don't know anything about the school board you refer to but there are plenty of wasteful school boards ...I'll give you that

 

[Denny Crane]

Maybe you need to do a little bit of math. Back of the envelope:

$10K/student (Oregon)
x 40 students/homeroom (overcrowded, too high a pupil/teacher ratio!)
= $400 per homeroom

Pay the teacher $150K
Pay $150K for computers

You still have $100K to pay the janitor (principal, etc.), maintenance on the school, band instruments, etc.

That's PER homeroom. You might have 10+ homerooms per grade in a school of 1600 students.

It's actually $10,400 per student and $400 per student for school bus expenses.

I'm not seeing there isn't enough money.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

you could very well be right about waste....I only know OSU when it comes to Corvalis...love the town...restaurants and music stores....no contact with their public school system or board...my son went to OSU for 4 years...my sentiments are general about education and investment in education...in Lane County our library provided some laptops and Ipads for checkout...free to students. I don't know anything about the school board you refer to but there are plenty of wasteful school boards ...I'll give you that

Thats great, OS is a great school (you know they dropped the "U"). Believe me, I am very pro education. That is how I became involved to begin with. The money is there to protect the kids. We could use several systems, from card locks with visual recognition in conjunction with armed security guards. single point of entry. Just like when you visit a police dept. Have to get buzzed in. There are was to do it. There is the money to do it. Just not the political will.

 

[riverman]

Our school system uses grants wisely....Bill Gates bought a lot of our computers...there are ways to make it work....150 K for a teacher is pretty rare in Oregon Denny unless you're a professor. That's admin salary stuff...I'd make a lot of changes if I could...it's not easy to pass things through most school boards...although I benefit from it...PERS is a big expense in Oregon

 

[MarAzul]

(you know they dropped the "U"

That is funny. I remember when they added the U.

 

[Denny Crane]

Our school system uses grants wisely....Bill Gates bought a lot of our computers...there are ways to make it work....150 K for a teacher is pretty rare in Oregon Denny unless you're a professor. That's admin salary stuff...I'd make a lot of changes if I could...it's not easy to pass things through most school boards...although I benefit from it...PERS is a big expense in Oregon

I was suggesting the spending could be generous. The complaint about overcrowded schools and underpaid teachers and the schools need more money isn't something I'm buying into.

The real cost is over-generous benefits. Oregon schools pay $.65 in teacher benefits for every $1 in salary. A fair value would be in the $.05 to $.15 range.