Harkless over Leonard

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blue9 said:
I don't put much stock in advanced stats, especially when measuring a player who barely gets any minutes, and is barely utilized in the minutes he gets. What I see, looking at Per36 numbers, is that they are fairly even with the main exceptions being:

FGA - Aminu +2.5 (which leads to increased PPG)
3P% - Aminu +10%
RBD - Vonleh +1.5
AST - Aminu +1

Aside from 3P%, nothing too major. Vonleh is supposedly a good shooter, so I think it's just confidence that's keeping him from equaling or bettering Aminu's 3P%.
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Vonleh's shot is garbage. All theoretical. He's an awful shooter right now and can't stretch the floor for shit.
 
B-Roy said:
Vonleh's shot is garbage. All theoretical. He's an awful shooter right now and can't stretch the floor for shit.
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Garbage is an understatement. His defense is great tho thats what saving him right now
 
blue9 said:
I don't put much stock in advanced stats, especially when measuring a player who barely gets any minutes, and is barely utilized in the minutes he gets. What I see, looking at Per36 numbers, is that they are fairly even with the main exceptions being:

FGA - Aminu +2.5 (which leads to increased PPG)
3P% - Aminu +10%
RBD - Vonleh +1.5
AST - Aminu +1

Aside from 3P%, nothing too major. Vonleh is supposedly a good shooter, so I think it's just confidence that's keeping him from equaling or bettering Aminu's 3P%.
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5.5 more points on 3.3 more shots is a pretty significant variance, underscored by Aminu's superior TS% (an advanced stat to which any FG% advocate should pay attention). 3 fewer PF per 36 is also a pretty big difference.

Also, I'd be curious to see what Aminu's stats as a PF are (curse you 82games.com!). I wouldn't be surprised if the gap widens.
 
Vonleh's shot is like so many 20 year old players adrenaline kicks in and shit gets ugly. Once he develops his poise and comfort he will be a pretty dang good player. If he simply developed a reasonable elbow jumper I could easily see him as a 16/10 guy in regular starters minutes.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
5.5 more points on 3.3 more shots is a pretty significant variance, underscored by Aminu's superior TS% (an advanced stat to which any FG% advocate should pay attention). 3 fewer PF per 36 is also a pretty big difference.

Also, I'd be curious to see what Aminu's stats as a PF are (curse you 82games.com!). I wouldn't be surprised if the gap widens.
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I agree with all of this, except the very first part - 5.5 on 3.3 doesn't impress me. Aminu and Vonleh both sport the same FG% (which is garbage).
While TS% isn't listed (or did I just miss it?), it's almost entirely due to Vonleh's AWFUL 3p% vs Aminu's pedestrian 3P%. Given the discrepancy in 3PA, it doesn't seem like a big deal - I certainly don't want Aminu shooting FIVE 3-pointers a game, as the per36 numbers account for.

But really, we don't really want offense from Aminu OR Vonleh at this point. And I think my original point still stands that if Aminu is barely better than Vonleh, doesn't it stand to reason that Vonleh is worth more of an investment given he's 5 years younger, with much less experience.

(It would be nice to break the numbers apart by position...)
 
blue9 said:
I agree with all of this, except the very first part - 5.5 on 3.3 doesn't impress me.
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You should do the math then. 5.5 on 3.3 is 1.67 ppp. If the average NBA game is 80 possessions, do you realize how much a team would score on 1.67 ppp?

5.5 points on 3.3 shots is YUGE.
 
blue9 said:
I agree with all of this, except the very first part - 5.5 on 3.3 doesn't impress me. Aminu and Vonleh both sport the same FG% (which is garbage).
While TS% isn't listed (or did I just miss it?), it's almost entirely due to Vonleh's AWFUL 3p% vs Aminu's pedestrian 3P%. Given the discrepancy in 3PA, it doesn't seem like a big deal - I certainly don't want Aminu shooting FIVE 3-pointers a game, as the per36 numbers account for.

But really, we don't really want offense from Aminu OR Vonleh at this point. And I think my original point still stands that if Aminu is barely better than Vonleh, doesn't it stand to reason that Vonleh is worth more of an investment given he's 5 years younger, with much less experience.

(It would be nice to break the numbers apart by position...)
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Nobody is saying Aminu is better than Vonleh can ever become. We can keep both in the future. Today Aminu is clearly superior so I want to see him continue to start. I'm interested what MoAl do in the playoffs. We can check up on Vonleh in summer league.
 
Draco said:
Nobody is saying Aminu is better than Vonleh can ever become. We can keep both in the future. Today Aminu is clearly superior so I want to see him continue to start. I'm interested what MoAl do in the playoffs. We can check up on Vonleh in summer league.
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Yeah, I suppose the way we're framing out thoughts has a lot to do with it. I certainly wouldn't start Vonleh over Aminu in the POs - but looking to next season I just don't see a big enough talent gap between the two to say that Aminu would be a better PF than Vonleh.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
You should do the math then. 5.5 on 3.3 is 1.67 ppp. If the average NBA game is 80 possessions, do you realize how much a team would score on 1.67 ppp?

5.5 points on 3.3 shots is YUGE.
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While statistically 1.67 ppp might be great, it's on such a small number of shots that it really shouldn't make any difference vs whatever ppp Vonleh would have on those same shots. We're talking about a point or two per game.
 
blue9 said:
While statistically 1.67 ppp might be great, it's on such a small number of shots that it really shouldn't make any difference vs whatever ppp Vonleh would have on those same shots. We're talking about a point or two per game.
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That point or two would have won us two games last week.
 
Strenuus said:
That point or two would have won us two games last week.
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Yeah a point or two per game from a starter is a big deal. If we had such a difference over the whole starting 5 that's 5-10 points and the difference between an average team and title contender.
 
A Sanders-Aminu-Harkless front court would just be nuts. Good luck scoring against that.
 
Obviously we want two way players at every position. But that does not always happen. If you have 4 offensive players on the court then you can get away with one bad one. But not 2-3 bad offensive players.

if I had to choose an offense guy vs a defensive guy.... I will lean towards the offense. IMO if a player can't score or pass , he better be on the all NBA defensive team. Bad scorers can't score on anyone, but great scorers can score on great defenders.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Obviously we want two way players at every position. But that does not always happen. If you have 4 offensive players on the court then you can get away with one bad one. But not 2-3 bad offensive players.

if I had to choose an offense guy vs a defensive guy.... I will lean towards the offense. IMO if a player can't score or pass , he better be on the all NBA defensive team. Bad scorers can't score on anyone, but great scorers can score on great defenders.
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I agree you can't have a totally inept offensive player. Harkless isn't bad offensively, outside his jump shot he's great. Often that improves over time. Aminu has provided valuable outside shooting all season.

Dame and CJ allow us great flexibility with frontcourt players who are primarily defensive guys. They need to have some sort of skill on offense but they can be very one dimensional.

I think ultimately the goal should be to have a top10 offense and defense; one of which is top5. We're already top6 offensively with this incomplete young roster. Long term we need defensive improvement.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Obviously we want two way players at every position. But that does not always happen. If you have 4 offensive players on the court then you can get away with one bad one. But not 2-3 bad offensive players.

if I had to choose an offense guy vs a defensive guy.... I will lean towards the offense. IMO if a player can't score or pass , he better be on the all NBA defensive team. Bad scorers can't score on anyone, but great scorers can score on great defenders.
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Were like sixth in the league in scoring doing just that tho. Outside of passing plums is LIMITED on offense and IMO the effect of his passing is overblown. it does not matter, ed davis is better defensively worse offensively and we see no drop off in production. Give us a true rim protector who can run the floor and dunk and the only change is we go from like 16-18th in the league on defense to maybe the top ten. Then were talking top 4 in the west probably battling with OKC for third.
 
chzbrgr said:
Were like sixth in the league in scoring doing just that tho. Outside of passing plums is LIMITED on offense and IMO the effect of his passing is overblown. it does not matter, ed davis is better defensively worse offensively and we see no drop off in production. Give us a true rim protector who can run the floor and dunk and the only change is we go from like 16-18th in the league on defense to maybe the top ten. Then were talking top 4 in the west probably battling with OKC for third.
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Maybe with a really good offensive bench. My post was in reference to a front line of Sanders, Aminu, and Harkless which can work in stretches, but my guess is we would all be bitching about not having a 3rd scorer after teams had time to prepare for it. Either Harkless or Aminu would have to improve their outside shot quite a bit for us to compete for 3rd.
 
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Another great game by Harkless last night. He's so much fun to watch on both ends. Can defend, hit put backs, slash to the hoop, get steals, rebound, run in transition. I'd take his faults and missed three's over an older stiff lumbering slow footed better shooting big any day.

Way to go Moe!
 
The current starting lineup has played the third most minutes of any 5 man Blazers group this season. It's out scoring opponents by 18.0 points per 100 possessions. We've found something special here.
 
Hark's shot technique IMO is okay and with work I think his 3 pt shooting can improve like Aminu's has, I think it's part confidence and part repetitions, if he could get his 3pt shot to 35% area like Aminu has he'd be golden IMO and remember he is only 22
 
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Scalma said:
A Sanders-Aminu-Harkless front court would just be nuts. Good luck scoring against that.
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That's what I've been advocating for. As much as I like Plums, I'd rather see Davis in that rotation. Plumlee would be my odd man out. I traded him on 2K. LOL.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Maybe with a really good offensive bench. My post was in reference to a front line of Sanders, Aminu, and Harkless which can work in stretches, but my guess is we would all be bitching about not having a 3rd scorer after teams had time to prepare for it. Either Harkless or Aminu would have to improve their outside shot quite a bit for us to compete for 3rd.
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3rd scorer off the bench;

Gerald Henderson.

He kills for me on 2K. Lol.
 
I think we need to waive goodbye to Leonard...not sure how viable if at all signing and trading him would be his injury not withstanding. I'm not sure we good get a pick for him and some cash money...maybe it's best to let him walk into the sunset and become an all-star onbthe spurs
 
Harkless again with an awesome game last night. Our second best player. Yeah I now want to resign him more than Crabbe, Hendo or Meyers.

We have a great chance of keeping him on an affordable deal too; teams are so enamores with 3 point shooting they'll overlook a guy who does everything else.
 
Man, this guy is just an animal when he's engaged into the game. His move to the starting lineup came about 15 games late by my estimation. Love his game.

As a starter, hes averaging 12.5 pts, 6.7 rebs, 1 ast, 1 blk, 1 stl on 54% FG. Needs to improve that 28% 3pt and he's gonna be our full time starter. 10 game sample size here, and we're 7-3 in those games if I'm looking at it correctly.
 
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